Are forms necessary for TKD?

[Earl Weiss120 20]

I hear you, Earl. And I'm not saying there shouldn't be. Just that it's a valid choice to teach TKD without the forms. I personally wouldn't view that as no longer being TKD.

So, first I would need you explain what makes it TKD or differentiates it from something else that kicks and punches or just ageneric Kickboxing?

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

For me, this is the key. Are you creating your own style and forms?

If you are creating your own style and forms (or not) then I would not call what you come up with TKD. Let me give you two examples:

1. Some 3rd degree TKD black belt moves to town and he wants to get his 4th degree in TKD. He find STKD (Skribs TKD) and shows up. He has the expectation of seeing some type of TKD forms that he is used to. Instead, he sees totally different forms he has never seen before and or he sees a totally different modality of teaching. He won't be too happy about it and he may go write some interesting reviews about someone claiming to teach TKD, but is really teaching something totally different.

2. Some newbie to martial arts, wants to learn TKD.... he saw the Olympics, or he heard about it. He signs up and trains for a few years and then learns that a traditional TKD school works in an entirely different way. Even worse, he goes on vacation and takes his uniform and visits some other TKD school as a TKD brown belt, only to learn that what he learned is totally different and not traditional TKD.

KKW did this for years - Lead to lots of issues as you say - but they took the long view. They were phenomenally successful. Eventually requiring a specific form system.

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

How did she?

IIRC it requires dome court action. She was local to this area as a Kung Fu practitioner open tournament competitor before switching to Tkd. . A search said "Threaten to sue" But that may have involved aleged professional status.

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

Keep telling yourself that

Been saying it since 1977 years when I first saw that in Chicago at the KKW Championships. That sparring system has left a bad taste in my mouth ever since then. Never wanted to do it - Olympics or not.

 

[Prince_Alarming62 5]

Sorry people, don't know what came over me I seem to have gone evil there for a secomd

 

[skribs123 143]

What I like about the KKW-style sparring (and why it would be the sparring style of my school regardless of whether I go this route or a broader curriculum) is that there's very little head contact for most belts, and then you do just light contact with kicks (which hit the head much less frequently) at upper belts.

I say "KKW-style" instead of Olympic style or WT style, because I believe WT and Olympic style allow knockouts at adult black belt. And frankly...I'm not for that. Is it higher fidelity? Yes. But I don't see the value in the increased risk to long-term brain health. And there's plenty of places to go train if you do want to take that risk.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf124 2]

I can easily dislike a sport for any number of reasons that don't involve me wishing I went to the olympics for the sport.

I don't care either way about olympic TKD, but I was really excited for olympic karate. Knowing I wouldn't participate, and when I saw it, I greatly disliked it. Nothing at all to do with my ability to participate.

 

[ap Oweyn26 2]

Forms are mostly important when they teach things (bunkai) not found in basic drills (kihon). When forms are taught that simply contain just blocks, kicks, punches, strikes and have no deeper meaning, they serve little purpose. Nothing is accomplished that a little creative drilling can't do, but forms may make it more fun and expressive.

I agree that some creative drilling can fill that gap readily. And, if you're working to apply the things you find in forms, then drilling is going to be an important next step one way or another.

To be clear, I'm not telling anyone to stop doing forms. That wasn't the original question and it's not the point of any of my answers. Personally, I've not found them more fun or expressive. But that's me.

But when forms contain more complex technique combinations that have application beyond the obvious, they become an integral part of the art. Removing the forms remove many techniques and applications.

I think that's a perfectly valid way to approach training if someone wants to engage in that interpretive work. Again, my goal has never been to dissuade people from practicing forms. Just to say that taekwondo doesn't cease to be taekwondo without them. Which I understand some people with disagree with. And that's cool.

 

[ap Oweyn26 2]

So, first I would need you explain what makes it TKD or differentiates it from something else that kicks and punches or just ageneric Kickboxing?

Technical execution. Kickboxing is a format. And plenty of taekwondoka have made their mark there. Francisco Filho in K1. Jerry Trimble in American kickboxing. Even taekwondoka finding success in muay thai competition. I'm sure it's a lengthy list of successful kickboxers from taekwondo backgrounds.

I've trained in taekwondo (ITF) and practiced Southeast Asian forms of kickboxing (muay thai and lethwei). I'm no expert in the latter, but the differences in technical execution are clear. As are the benefits and limitations of each approach.

I don't believe for one moment that all that differentiates taekwondo from other forms of kicking/punching is the forms. It has its own technical approach, with all the tactics that flow from that approach. Jerry Trimble throwing a round kick in the ring looks very different from Buakaw throwing a round kick in the ring.

 

[skribs123 143]

I don't believe for one moment that all that differentiates taekwondo from other forms of kicking/punching is the forms. It has its own technical approach, with all the tactics that flow from that approach.

I almost want to create a 2nd account so I could agree with this statement twice.

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

I don't believe for one moment that all that differentiates taekwondo from other forms of kicking/punching is the forms. It has its own technical approach, with all the tactics that flow from that approach. Jerry Trimble throwing a round kick in the ring looks very different from Buakaw throwing a round kick in the ring.

I would submit that various systems using a T K D Moniker have "Round House " Kicks that look very different from each other. Within each system it can look different for sparring, breaking, and patterns. What makes them all and uniquely T K D ?

 

[ap Oweyn26 2]

I would submit that various systems using a T K D Moniker have "Round House " Kicks that look very different from each other. Within each system it can look different for sparring, breaking, and patterns. What makes them all and uniquely T K D ?

You tell me, I guess. Both are readily identifiable not only as taekwondo but as their individual strains of taekwondo. And as distinct from the round kick in shotokan, muay thai, savate, etc.

And if the patterns look substantially different between strains of taekwondo (as they were between what I learned in ITF and later saw in WTF), is that a particularly unifying identity for the art?

 

[skribs123 143]

I would submit that various systems using a T K D Moniker have "Round House " Kicks that look very different from each other. Within each system it can look different for sparring, breaking, and patterns. What makes them all and uniquely T K D ?

Watch an IBJJF gi match and an ADCC no-gi match and they'll look like completely different martial arts. Yet you can train for both at the same gym.

 

[Tony Dismukes122 18]

This is super common. I use the term "karate" for our school even though most of the liniage where I learned came from Jhoon Rhee (who also used karate in much of his marketing). My old school did the same.

I grew up in Baltimore in the 1970s. I can't see Jhoon Rhee's name without hearing:

When you take Jhoon Rhee self defense, then you too can say: Nobody bothers me, nobody bothers me.
(Cute little kid 1): Nobody bodders me!
(Cute little kid 2): Nobody bodders me either!

(If I remember correctly, his school was actually located in the DC area rather than Baltimore, but we were still in the broadcast area for his commercials.)

 

[skribs123 143]

I grew up in Baltimore in the 1970s. I can't see Jhoon Rhee's name without hearing:

When you take Jhoon Rhee self defense, then you too can say: Nobody bothers me, nobody bothers me.
(Cute little kid 1): Nobody bodders me!
(Cute little kid 2): Nobody bodders me either!

(If I remember correctly, his school was actually located in the DC area rather than Baltimore, but we were still in the broadcast area for his commercials.)

I think BJJ went in a different direction. "I used to get beat up at school. Then I started jiu-jitsu. Now I get beat up at school and jiu-jitsu."

 

[ap Oweyn26 2]

I grew up in Baltimore in the 1970s. I can't see Jhoon Rhee's name without hearing:

When you take Jhoon Rhee self defense, then you too can say: Nobody bothers me, nobody bothers me.
(Cute little kid 1): Nobody bodders me!
(Cute little kid 2): Nobody bodders me either!

(If I remember correctly, his school was actually located in the DC area rather than Baltimore, but we were still in the broadcast area for his commercials.)

We sure were. I grew up outside Baltimore in the 80s. (Arrived in this country in 81.) I remember the Jhoon Rhee commercials very well.

And speaking of the use of the word “karate,” my taekwondo background was Kim’s Karate in Severna Park and sometimes Glen Burnie. Master Jae Kim.

 

[Tony Dismukes122 18]

And speaking of the use of the word “karate,” my taekwondo background was Kim’s Karate in Severna Park and sometimes Glen Burnie. Master Jae Kim.

Hey! I trained there. That was the start of my martial arts career. Age 17, I trained at Kim's Karate for about 3 months before the money I had saved from my allowance ran out.

 

[ap Oweyn26 2]

M

Hey! I trained there. That was the start of my martial arts career. Age 17, I trained at Kim's Karate for about 3 months before the money I had saved from my allowance ran out.

Mine too! Save for a brief stint in judo as a kid in England in the 70s. Dad tells me I’m a white belt in judo. I’m taking his word for it.

I started around age 13 and trained there until a new school opened in Pasadena, teaching eskrima. (And run by some former instructors from Kim’s.)

 

[Kung Fu Wang124 154]

I grew up in Baltimore in the 1970s. I can't see Jhoon Rhee's name without hearing:

... his school was actually located in the DC area rather than Baltimore,

This was Jhoon Rhee's 1st TKD school in 3401 Guadalupe St, Austin, Texas. After he left, a Kenpo school was there. My Peishaolin Kung Fu Institute was there after.

Jhoon Rhee had a simple definition for TKD. He defined TKD = side kick.

3401 Guadalupe St, Austin, TX 78705 | Zillow

3401 Guadalupe St, Austin TX.

www.zillow.com

 

[Same Trick69 20]

Are there form competition at the Olympic TKD event ?