Animated Dojo Discussion

[Kenpojujitsu3]

LOL, see how easy it is to misunderstand what people are saying on these forums!! I guess we can come up with countless ways of looking at something. What if? What if? I never said that I didn't want to hurt that guy. Sorry if I gave that impression. And you're right, Kenpo is quite injurious. But heres something to look at. For a lapel grab we have the tech. Lone Kimono. Now, if this guy is simply grabbing our lapel, do we have to break his arm, or could we opt for a joint lock? Depending on the situation and whats being presented to us, either option has its positives and negatives.

Mike

YES!!!! We have to break his arm!! Because Mr. Parker said so! Just kidding but you know the type. The Kenpo Techniques have to be done as is there is no other way. LOL. Equation Formula? never heard of it. Regulate force or intent? huh what's that? LOL

 

[lonecoyote]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think It's pretty hard to break an arm. Dislocate, tear or sprain at the joint okay but to actually break the main large bone in the arm against a resisting, pulling, punching and grappling opponent, I think that would be a heck of a trick. Maybe I just don't know how it would be done but I think in an armbar the elbow joint would give way before the large bone. I've had some joint injuries and damage grappling, elbow and back, sucks but you can come back. I've heard of bone breaking but just don't think it is as common or easy as you guys make it sound.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think It's pretty hard to break an arm. Dislocate, tear or sprain at the joint okay but to actually break the main large bone in the arm against a resisting, pulling, punching and grappling opponent, I think that would be a heck of a trick. Maybe I just don't know how it would be done but I think in an armbar the elbow joint would give way before the large bone. I've had some joint injuries and damage grappling, elbow and back, sucks but you can come back. I've heard of bone breaking but just don't think it is as common or easy as you guys make it sound.

When most people say break a limb they mean the joint not the actual bone. 99% of the locks I know from JuJitsu attack the joints, muscles and ligaments not the actual bone itself. But there are a few forearm and shin locks that attack the actual bone. There's a reason that Bone encases the vital stuff you know.

 

[MJS]

OK Mike here we go. And before I began I'm just discussing not trying to be a jerk. Suppose all diplomacy has failed. No chance of de-escalation (man that terms getting used alot LOL). You are now fighting and we'll assume this guy wants your life. At what point of the fight do you realize that you've given this guy too many chances and you also realize it's your life he's after? We'll go from there if you're up for it my friend.

James

I certainly don't think that you're trying to be a jerk in any of your posts. I'm always up for some friendly discussion.

Ok...as I said before, being aware of what is happening is important. We have our altercation. We attempt to verbally de-escalate (LOL..I had to say it again) the situation. Result? Doesn't work. The guy now moves to a physical attack, such as a punch. We defend ourselves using the necessary amount of force. I block the punch, strike to the face, as well as throw knee shots to the groin. I would hope that that would give me time to get the hell out of there. Result: if it does great! If not, it is apparent that we have to continue to escalate our defense.

I came across this link.

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/whatsnew/030508/

IMO this is a good example of how we can determine what is too much and what is not enough.

Mike

 

[MJS]

YES!!!! We have to break his arm!! Because Mr. Parker said so! Just kidding but you know the type. The Kenpo Techniques have to be done as is there is no other way. LOL. Equation Formula? never heard of it. Regulate force or intent? huh what's that? LOL

Thats right...thinking 'outside the box', making a change, going against the grain of the 5 book series is taboo!! DON"T DO IT!!!

:lol: :lol:

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Thats right...thinking 'outside the box', making a change, going against the grain of the 5 book series is taboo!! DON"T DO IT!!!

:lol: :lol:

You know these 5 books should have been each labeled with a different letter B-I-B-L-E. Because that's how people take them.

 

[ppko]

Well, thats perfectly fine as long as they don't mind going to visit you while you're locked up.

Well at least we agree

Maybe I misunderstood what you were implying here
not having time to think, as being careless with your actions. My apologies, I should have been a bit clearer with what I was saying.

Mike

What I was trying to say was that what you have practiced should come naturally don't think about it. It's kind of like"If you know you know than you don't know, but if you don't know you know thats when you know" I have no I dea who said that so I guess I know (just joking on the last part)

 

[silatman]

This is nearly exactly the discussion that we had at the dojo, I guess my point is that as long as you are able to fight on you can always step up the violence but if you start with a break there is no more escallation, as for my signature I will break and stomp if my life was in danger but if it isnt I would rather see my family without the bars thanks.

 

[MJS]

Well at least we agree

Sounds good. We're all different, but as far as I'm concerned, I like my freedom and would rather not spend time behind bars. I worked in the prison system for a while...definately looked forward to getting out after my 8hrs. :ultracool

What I was trying to say was that what you have practiced should come naturally don't think about it. It's kind of like"If you know you know than you don't know, but if you don't know you know thats when you know" I have no I dea who said that so I guess I know (just joking on the last part)

Thanks for the clarification. Thats what I mentioned in post #12. We certainly don't want to 'think' in the sense of "What tech. do I do for this attack?" but instead still be aware and 'think' about what our end result will be.

Just my .02! :supcool:

Mike

 

[Grenadier]

The first rule of a serious conflict is this: survive it, if you can't avoid it.

If you did what you reasonably could have done to prevent the confrontation from degenerating into a melee, then it's probably serious enough that the other guy would be out to cause some serious harm to you. If it's that serious, then you had better not pull any punches, since your first goal is to survive. You should use whatever you have at your access, to stop the other guy. If the fight is over after you've applied the force, then so be it. Don't continue it, of course, since the guy is no longer a threat.

Please note, that while I do advocate using your best techniques to survive the encounter, this does NOT mean that you should attempt to break the guy's neck if you have the upper hand! Breaking an arm, leg, etc, though, shouldn't come in the way of you surviving the fight.

It's the same thing I'll tell other people when it comes to firearms; you don't shoot to scare or wound; you shoot to stop the other guy. If you manage to incapacitate him with a shot that happened to just wound him, then it's over. Don't continue on, if he does not present a threat anymore.

 

[ppko]

Sounds good. We're all different, but as far as I'm concerned, I like my freedom and would rather not spend time behind bars. I worked in the prison system for a while...definately looked forward to getting out after my 8hrs. :ultracool

I agree that I would rather not be behind bars but if I must kill someone to keep them from killing me than I will take my chances I have a lot of friends that work in prisons, and they would say the same thing as you

Thanks for the clarification. Thats what I mentioned in post #12. We certainly don't want to 'think' in the sense of "What tech. do I do for this attack?" but instead still be aware and 'think' about what our end result will be.

Just my .02! :supcool:

Mike

I can sort of agree with you here let me give you an example; A friend of mine that used to work as an police officer put away a guy when he put him away the guyvowed to kill his family no matter the consequences. The guy gets out of jail goes straight over to my friends house knocks on the door, my friend opens the door the guy goes to cut him, my friend ends up ending this guys life no regrets, law sees that my friend was in the right. When I am talking about fighting this is what I am talking about if I fight than I see that it can be nothing less than a plot on my life or my families.:asian:
Joe Morris

 

[ppko]

The first rule of a serious conflict is this: survive it, if you can't avoid it.

If you did what you reasonably could have done to prevent the confrontation from degenerating into a melee, then it's probably serious enough that the other guy would be out to cause some serious harm to you. If it's that serious, then you had better not pull any punches, since your first goal is to survive. You should use whatever you have at your access, to stop the other guy. If the fight is over after you've applied the force, then so be it. Don't continue it, of course, since the guy is no longer a threat.

Please note, that while I do advocate using your best techniques to survive the encounter, this does NOT mean that you should attempt to break the guy's neck if you have the upper hand! Breaking an arm, leg, etc, though, shouldn't come in the way of you surviving the fight.

It's the same thing I'll tell other people when it comes to firearms; you don't shoot to scare or wound; you shoot to stop the other guy. If you manage to incapacitate him with a shot that happened to just wound him, then it's over. Don't continue on, if he does not present a threat anymore.

good post I agree.

 

[Mark L]

I'd guess you won't have the time, and maybe not the capacity in the heat of the moment, to make a rationale decision as to what level of force you plan to use. Adrenalin can be very disruptive, so you're likely to respond to an attack in the manner you train. The techniques you've drilled hundreds or thousands of times will come out, the effectiveness and severity with which you apply them under high stress and the corresponding physiological response will reflect your training.

I'd hope to simply react to the situation, and act on the opportunities presented by the bad guy. If it's an arm bar, take it. If it's knee to the face, take it. You do what you have to to thwart the threat, and you will never know what that is in advance. Sometimes it might just be a stiff jab, other times it might be inducing unconciousness or incapacitation, or worse. I suspect that if you injure to an extent that requires medical attention, you'll have to deal with the law regardless.

One of the areas that concerns me in my training is how far I would go if the encounter went to the ground. We train to submission, otherwise there would be a lot of injuries. I apply submission techniques until the other guy taps, could this be a reasonable approach on the street? Is it realistic to apply a hold and demand surrender, or else?

I have many more questions than answers. Good discussion ...

 

[ppko]

One of the areas that concerns me in my training is how far I would go if the encounter went to the ground. We train to submission, otherwise there would be a lot of injuries. I apply submission techniques until the other guy taps, could this be a reasonable approach on the street? Is it realistic to apply a hold and demand surrender, or else?

I have many more questions than answers. Good discussion ...

This is just my oppinion I am sure that you will get different ones. If the fight goes to the ground you do not want to stay down there and try to get them to submit you want to take care of the threat and get up as soon as possible. This is why what if the guy has friends, there are lots of items on the ground that can be used as weapons against you, the more time that you give the person the better the chance of him winning. just some food for thought, like I said that is just my oppinion I am sure that there will be different ones.

 

[MJS]

I can sort of agree with you here let me give you an example; A friend of mine that used to work as an police officer put away a guy when he put him away the guyvowed to kill his family no matter the consequences. The guy gets out of jail goes straight over to my friends house knocks on the door, my friend opens the door the guy goes to cut him, my friend ends up ending this guys life no regrets, law sees that my friend was in the right. When I am talking about fighting this is what I am talking about if I fight than I see that it can be nothing less than a plot on my life or my families.:asian:
Joe Morris

First off, I'd like to say, that despite the disagreeing that we do, which of course, is natural, that I'm happy to see that this thread is still staying civil! :asian:

As for your example: Yes, I certainly understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. In the case that you mention, your friend IMHO was justified in doing what he did. I'll direct you to the link that I post showing the use of force ladder. Again, I'll say that despite the impression my posts give, I'm certainly not against taking it to that 'next level'. The guy was using lethal force against your friend, therefore your friend was justified in doing what he did. Now, if this guy knocked on his door and verbally assaulted him, I would have to say that taking his life would not be an option. Well, it would be,but a wrong one IMO.

Mike

 

[ppko]

First off, I'd like to say, that despite the disagreeing that we do, which of course, is natural, that I'm happy to see that this thread is still staying civil! :asian:

Well we have both been respectful in our posts:asian:

As for your example: Yes, I certainly understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. In the case that you mention, your friend IMHO was justified in doing what he did. I'll direct you to the link that I post showing the use of force ladder. Again, I'll say that despite the impression my posts give, I'm certainly not against taking it to that 'next level'. The guy was using lethal force against your friend, therefore your friend was justified in doing what he did. Now, if this guy knocked on his door and verbally assaulted him, I would have to say that taking his life would not be an option. Well, it would be,but a wrong one IMO.

Mike

Agreed

 

[Mark L]

PPKO,
You are absolutley correct, getting off of the ground is important if there are other threats. I wouldn't hesitate to do whatever if there are multiple bad guys. I didn't check back, but I think the original scenario was 1 on 1 with no other threats.

 

[ppko]

PPKO,
You are absolutley correct, getting off of the ground is important if there are other threats. I wouldn't hesitate to do whatever if there are multiple bad guys. I didn't check back, but I think the original scenario was 1 on 1 with no other threats.

what I am getting at is that you never know for sure

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I leave the board for a couple of hours and look at all the stuff I miss. LOL. I gotta go back and catch up now. Excuse me.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

The first rule of a serious conflict is this: survive it, if you can't avoid it.

If you did what you reasonably could have done to prevent the confrontation from degenerating into a melee, then it's probably serious enough that the other guy would be out to cause some serious harm to you. If it's that serious, then you had better not pull any punches, since your first goal is to survive. You should use whatever you have at your access, to stop the other guy. If the fight is over after you've applied the force, then so be it. Don't continue it, of course, since the guy is no longer a threat.

Please note, that while I do advocate using your best techniques to survive the encounter, this does NOT mean that you should attempt to break the guy's neck if you have the upper hand! Breaking an arm, leg, etc, though, shouldn't come in the way of you surviving the fight.

It's the same thing I'll tell other people when it comes to firearms; you don't shoot to scare or wound; you shoot to stop the other guy. If you manage to incapacitate him with a shot that happened to just wound him, then it's over. Don't continue on, if he does not present a threat anymore.

Excellent, you get some Rep points from me for this one. Awesome post.