Im at a loss.

[Wing Woo Gar49 11]

Looking for some insight. Sorry for how long this is, but context is important. Today I had another disgruntled parent quit because I made their teenager exercise. Not an exageration. Their email stated, and this a direct quote, "it really seems like class is just a glorified workout using kicks and forms". We are a TKD/karate school so kicking and forms are a big part of it. We make it very clear that fitness to build a strong mind and body is an important aspect of our training. So its not that we were doing exercises unrelated to our training, its that our training itself was exercise. For yesterdays class the last 40 minutes we had a rule that was to push yourself, not pace yourself and to go as long as possible without taking a break. If a student needed a break they didnt need to ask, they just stepped off. It was made clear that if they stepped off the floor because they needed a break, they would not be permitted back on the floor until the end of class for safety reasons, forcing them to take a much needed rehydration break. This isnt a new thing and exception are always made if there is enough time left in class. If every student stops with time left then we do cool downs as a class and end with some stretching (which we had an instructor on hand in the adjacent training foor just for student who needed a break).

Well, with about 10 minutes left of class a 14 year old had to step off. One of our Master instructor was running this section of the class, so I went up to the student that needed a break and commended them on how well they did and that they should be proud of thier perseverance. I then offered them a free gatorade and snack from our "refuel station" and told them to take their time to recover and rehydrate. I reminded them, with only 10 minutes of class left they wouldnt be allowed back into that class for safety reasons and should instead take this time to recover and use the adjacent training floor for cool down exercises and stretching. The mother instead said "we'll just leave since she cant participate anymore" and left without saying a word. Today I woke up to an angry email. The email was about how the class was exercise. The mom was mad that their kid exercised and was made to take appropriate recovery time.

This is a style of class we only run for advanced colored belts and black belts and only about every other month. For our black belts this is barely a workout but to a 3rd gup, like the student in question, it can be a challenge. I am open to insight, criticism, and any general thoughts.

My main question is, am I in the wrong for running such a physically demanding class and then making students take the time to recover?

Reason number 614 I don’t teach kids.

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 11]

You'd be surprised. Seen quite a few people who figure that if technique trumps all, then there's no point to hard physical work, is there?

I remember a pair of teenagers who showed up and did basically no work all class. When asked, after a few weeks of this, why they even showed up if they were gonna do nothing (I was doing the asking and was quite exasperated, so add some more colourful vernacular as appropriate), they said they figured they could just show up and get a black belt in around a year.

I think I may have offended them when I burst out laughing, they stopped coming after that. I was unbothered.

I don’t allow spectators, they either want to work or not. The only time I allow children is if the parent trains with them. I don’t change my curriculum or pace for anyone. If they get in my boat they row. They can take a break any time they want but I only give one short 2 minute break every 30 minutes.

 

[Simfers114 22]

Yeah, I didn't have authority to outright kick 'em out, I was just a teacher, not an owner. Best I could do was not give them any attention as long as they weren't disrupting the class.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

only give one short 2 minute break every 30 minutes.

There's such a thing as a break?!!

In all my years of karate classes we never had a formal break. Our "break" was waiting in line for the heavy bag (about 15-20 sec. rotation) or waiting our turn to spar. This for a 1 or 1-1/2 hour class (no kids which I think is a different story - up to a point).

Yes, often times I had to pace myself or skip for a couple of reps here and there (can't go full power and speed for a whole class) but that slower time was spent concentrating on form and mechanics so was not just slacking off.

There's more to say on the topic, but I'm tired and need a break.

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 11]

There's such a thing as a break?!!

In all my years of karate classes we never had a formal break. Our "break" was waiting in line for the heavy bag (about 15-20 sec. rotation) or waiting our turn to spar. This for a 1 or 1-1/2 hour class (no kids which I think is a different story - up to a point).

Yes, often times I had to pace myself or skip for a couple of reps here and there (can't go full power and speed for a whole class) but that slower time was spent concentrating on form and mechanics so was not just slacking off.

There's more to say on the topic, but I'm tired and need a break.

Yep, I am soft. I like a hot jasmine tea during that one minute.

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 11]

There's such a thing as a break?!!

In all my years of karate classes we never had a formal break. Our "break" was waiting in line for the heavy bag (about 15-20 sec. rotation) or waiting our turn to spar. This for a 1 or 1-1/2 hour class (no kids which I think is a different story - up to a point).

Yes, often times I had to pace myself or skip for a couple of reps here and there (can't go full power and speed for a whole class) but that slower time was spent concentrating on form and mechanics so was not just slacking off.

There's more to say on the topic, but I'm tired and need a break.

When you get to be your age you deserve a break.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

When you get to be your age youh deserve a break.

As an uchi deshi (private student at the master's home) for a couple of years (at 70 yrs. old) I was put thru 2-hour classes 2/wk., old time Okinawan training. He did often ask if I needed a break to which I usually said, "No" as he did not respect weakness of will. I only passed out one time.

Aside from my 3 times/wk at the gym, 1.5 hrs at the park practicing weapons and 1.5 hrs/wk at home doing kata, I'm on sabbatical, once more a ronin. Oh, and I do give myself breaks before I pass out. You're right, I deserve them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 145]

My main question is, am I in the wrong for running such a physically demanding class and then making students take the time to recover?

You train to the point that you feel good, and you want to train more. You force yourself to stop. This way, you can continue your fun next day.

I was taught not to push myself to 100%. Every day I just push myself to 75%. This way, I can still reserve 25% of my energy to deal with my environment. Since I'm not totally exhausted, I'll look forward to my next day training.

One trains MA because he "enjoys himself" of training and not because he "forces himself" of training. This is the opposite of "no pain, no gain." IMO, it doesn't matter whether one trains today or not. It matters whether he will still train 30 years from today.

 

[J. Pickard]

Assume you teach a MA form that contains 100 moves. You teach 5 moves each class. You will expect students who will repeat at home so next class you can teach them the next 5 moves. This way, you can finish the whole form after 20 classes. If students don't do their homework, how will you be able to finish teaching your 100 moves form?

This form contains 108 moves. How did ancient people be able to learn this form if they didn't train at home?

I agree with you, but most students don't seem to see it that way. We say you come to class to learn what to practice, go home and practice to memorize/fix/improve what was taught in class, come back to the next class to show you remember/learned then learn the next thing. I can't tell you how often I have spent weeks teaching the same thing over and over, week after week because students don't go home and practice. It's actually why we discontinued our kobudo program and now only do weapons as a private lesson. I spent around 6 weeks teaching the same Bo Kihon set over and over and only one person actually practiced at home and was ready for the next set and intro to the kata. It wasn't worth the frustration anymore for an additional $20/month.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

I agree with you, but most students don't seem to see it that way. We say you come to class to learn what to practice, go home and practice to memorize/fix/improve what was taught in class, come back to the next class to show you remember/learned then learn the next thing. I can't tell you how often I have spent weeks teaching the same thing over and over, week after week because students don't go home and practice. It's actually why we discontinued our kobudo program and now only do weapons as a private lesson. I spent around 6 weeks teaching the same Bo Kihon set over and over and only one person actually practiced at home and was ready for the next set and intro to the kata. It wasn't worth the frustration anymore for an additional $20/month.

It's a pity that so many don't recognize the "gift" TMA and a good instructor offer them. They have little appreciation for not only the technique, but the historical value of kobudo. We withheld weapons till black belt so knew that the student had the basic skills and dedication from the start.

It may help to introduce the weapon to the student. Knowing its place in combat history and the lineage of the kata may build some value for the student. Take the bo kata, Tokumine no kun. Tokumine (b. 1860) was an MA master and fond of drinking. He was said to have put several (some count over a dozen) policemen in the hospital while drunk and was either exiled to Yaeyama Island off Okinawa's coast or fled there.

Matsumura suggested to his student, Kyan, that he go there to learn bo-jitsu, however Tokumine had already passed away by the time he got there. However, it seems Tokumine had taught the art to his landlord who taught it to Kyan. So goes the story which I believe contains some good measure of truth.

Kyan taught it to his students, including Shimabuku, the founder of my style, who instructed my sensei in it who then taught it to me. While not my favorite bo kata, it provides a link for me to the old masters of karate and kobudo. I like being a part of that legacy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 145]

One trains MA because he "enjoys himself" of training and not because he "forces himself" of training.

- When I was young, I trained with a 50 lb dumbbell.
-10 years ago, I reduced to 30 lb.
- 5 years ago, I reduced to 25 lb.
- Yesterday, I reduced to 20 lb.

This way, I can still have fun when I do it. If I still use my 50 lb, I could quite this training 10 years ago.

 

[Appledog50 3]

My main question is, am I in the wrong for running such a physically demanding class and then making students take the time to recover?

Not at all. I get this all the time in my own schools, not just in kungfu but teaching english. Some people even look for trouble to justify leaving so they can get out of paying for 1 or 2 classes.

If this is truly an issue of parent misunderstanding, it is possible to grduate the classes more (i.e. grade students more finely) so a student like that doesn't end up in an advanced class until they have been worked into it, or the parent has had time to be educated about what is going on and perhaps even sign a permission form. Not for permission, just to let the parent know what is going on. Then this kind of excuse can't be given.

But overall there is nothing you can do to prevent this kind of behavior, it will happen from time to time, sometimes more frequently than you expect. There is always some amount of weird drama from parents when you run a school. Oh, the stories I could tell Just take it in stride and be the best teacher you can be, and don't let it bother you too much

 

[HighKick]

All of our advanced rank and black belt classes are pretty physically demanding. The only difference is for this special circumstance we dont take a 30 second break every 10 minutes and i dont want the students to pace themselves just to make it to the end of class.

When I recieved the email I was a bit bagffled by the parent being upset about exercise so I requested to talk in person instead of over email so we can have a constructive conversation. We'll see how it goes.

I feel that is the best approach. Something seems amiss, so hopefully you can sleuth things out.

 

[Same Trick60 11]

I probably misunderstand the issue here ?
But why would it be a safety issue to let the student back into class ?….(if that was the issue)

 

[J. Pickard]

I probably misunderstand the issue here ?
But why would it be a safety issue to let the student back into class ?….(if that was the issue)

The idea being, if you truly hit your limit, like your body cannot keep going no matter how determined you are, its not safe to keep trying. Basically what we are working toward is understanding the difference between giving up and reaching your limit. When the mind gives up you get up, when the body gives up you go down. Once youve reached the point of failure, as with any exercise, if you try to work past that you run the risk of serious injury.

Edit for clarity: this was a special class for advanced students only and not a normal everyday class.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 145]

The idea being, if you truly hit your limit, like youre body cannot keep going no matter how determined you are, its not safe to keep trying. Basically what we are working toward is understanding the difference between giving up and reaching your limit. When the mind gives up you get up, when the body gives up you go down.

If your students all get exhausted after your class, On the way home, if they get into a fight, what energy do they still have left to handle that fight?

 

[J. Pickard]

If your students all get exhausted after your class, On the way home, if they get into a fight, what energy do they still have left to handle that fight?

If the students in this class are getting into fights on the way home we have bigger issues. My dojang is in a small town rural comunity surrounded by farms and this class is the last one for the night. Everyone is driving straight home afterward. Nobody is walking home so no chance of encountering a mugger on the street and the class ends at 8, everything in town also closes at 8 so nobody is stopping at the store. So unless someone is stopping to pick a fight with the deer in the cornfields its a non issue.

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

If your students all get exhausted after your class, On the way home, if they get into a fight, what energy do they still have left to handle that fight?

Ah, now this is an interesting issue. Quite often, physical pursuits designed to make us stronger end up leaving us with roughly the physical capacities of a clam on our days off.

 

[Stuarto76 17]

We always put effort into every class but our teacher wants us to only do what we can handle. One of our students pulled a hamstring a little over a month ago and our teacher will tell him to take it easy in class. For me personally, I enjoy it and usually put my all into every training session however, I also take pauses to catch my breath and hydrate.

I think the likely hood of running into an altercation on the way home is relatively low. Possible, but low. Usually we are not walking far to our cars. Maybe back in the old days when you had to walk a couple miles home there would have been a greater chance for running into thugs or bandits.

 

[HighKick]

If your students all get exhausted after your class, On the way home, if they get into a fight, what energy do they still have left to handle that fight?

If a frog had a clutch, it would not jump.