Bamm! back to white!:mst:
An 8 year old black belt walks into your school.....
- Thread starter IcemanSK
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BrandiJo
Master of Arts
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the first school i trained at, if you transferd in you went back to white but you got a nifty lil tape on your white belt that was whatever color your last belt was, and with each progressive belt untill you reached that color again.so your kid would have a white belt, but a nifty (tacky) black tape on it. still strokes there ego, but you get to retrain them
Hi Iceman---if it does turn out that there's something fishy about this BB situation with this boy (and it's really hard for me to imagine a legitimate BB for an eight year old, even a poom belt), BrandiJo's solution---which would salve feelings while still keeping the standards of your dojang intact---might be a good route all 'round.
We're all interested in what you find out and what you decide---please keep us posted on how this plays out.
bydand
Senior Master
That is a neat idea, shows that they are beginning in your art, but has rank in something else. Interesting thought...
I require any new student who comes in my door to put on a white belt (except for students in my teacher's lineage).
The curriculum that I teach is designed to bring people to standards that I set. And the ranks that my students earn are educational tools. Besides, recognizing rank in other arts just brings up a whole heck of alot of problems...with one of them being ego.
Its best not to go there.
The curriculum that I teach is designed to bring people to standards that I set. And the ranks that my students earn are educational tools. Besides, recognizing rank in other arts just brings up a whole heck of alot of problems...with one of them being ego.
Its best not to go there.
Iceman and everybody else if he is a KKW student then his rank would be a 1st poom under the age of 15 which he is, but here lies the problem to be KKW you have to be in there guidelines which mean Tae Gueks or Pal gwe poomsae, with that being said if he does not know this set then he is not KKW and competed as such, which means house BB so you have the honor to accept or make him start over, which the latter is better since you are with GM Sell now Iceman. If he is a 1st poom then his certificate does not take but 4-6 weeks to get so I really doubt if he is a KKW student.
Now before everybody jumps on a band wagon about if the Kukkiwon gives out Pooms rank yes they do and they are legitament rank under there guidelines and are not consider a Dan until 15 and they send ib to have it changed from poom to Dan rank.
Master Stoker
Now before everybody jumps on a band wagon about if the Kukkiwon gives out Pooms rank yes they do and they are legitament rank under there guidelines and are not consider a Dan until 15 and they send ib to have it changed from poom to Dan rank.
Master Stoker
I imagine it will be quite difficult. I've had both kids and adults come in at various ranks; the adults with red belts who knew the Ch'ang H'on patterns uniformly chose to start lower than their previously earned rank (between white and green belt, depending on when they started and how long they'd been out); the kids started at their previous ranks because they happened to come from classes with syllabi that matched mine, and were only different in technical details - which did, generally, increase the time before the first testing, as they changed the details.
While I do not teach kids at all. I do have alot of different people from other systems come in and they start where everybody else starts but probably will advance at an accelerated rate. Rank really does not transfer well from style to style or school to school. Sure if the child is KKW certifide and could perform your forms flawlessly to your level and had their certificates then you probably would want to acknowledge their rank. If that is not the case then you should start them over but at an accelerated rate based on the individuals skills. If they are really interested in learning then they will not have a problem with this. Good luck.
hi Terry, yes, that's what I was dimly remembering from that old TKD thread---you posted a bit in that one, right?
I would have to agree w/Master Stoker here: if it wasn't a KKW certified poom, and has no status at all outside his prior dojang, and there's no reason on earth why you should be expected to conform to their (rather suspect) standards.
It sure does look a bit thick, that `black belt'. If it's not a real KKW certification, then all bets are off. And it sure doesn't sound as though they made him work through a Palgwe or Taegeuk curriculum to get it.
Terry, I'm pretty sure that no one who's posted on this thread so far is going to take the line that just because KKW has poom as a legitimate rank, a house-awarded `black belt' corresponding to poom has to be taken as legitimate in any other dojang. The question I have---'cause I think you're probably dead right, and there is no KKW certification coming---is, who made up the story that Iceman got from the boy's mother---his previous dojang, or his parents? It sounds almost certain that one or the other fabricated the whole business...
Exile I would imagine the school over the parent the parent have nothing to gain from the story but the school sure does. At any rate exile you are right on the money with all your commits.
Terry
Thank you, sir---and yes, it does seem more likely, as you say, that the school was pulling a fast one on this woman and her child. The one good side of it all is that the boy wound up in Iceman's dojang and will now have the chance to learn real Taekwondo.
But you have to figure, if they were feeding this family the line about the status of his training, they must be doing the same thing up and down the line---and a lot of kids are going to be coming out of there with BBs that mean very little. Probably more than a few adults, too.
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
I think that your idea of talking to his former instructor to really understand what is going on is your best bet. Regardless of your decision towards his rank, the more informed you are, the better you can serve a student.
For what it's worth, when a new (or potential) student comes into my school, and is concerned about their rank in a previous school/system; I tell them that I did not issue them their rank, so it is not my place to take it away. However, this is not their previous school and at our school they will need to learn our cirriculum and meet our standards for any rank. I believe there is no point in "reinventing the wheel" and that if their skill and ability is up to the level of our students of that age and level, then they will be promoted to that level.
One advantage we have is that ours is a MMA system (though our trad. base is TKD) and while they may have comparable skills to our red belts in TKD (for example), do they have the same level of skill as our red belts in BJJ, Muay Thai, and the FMA's? You could use the same point regarding his lack of knowledge of required forms or any other part of your cirriculum that his previous school may have neglected (like waitng until he was older/more mature before awarding him even a poom. I actually am in favor of the poom, but only in exceptional cases and NEVER that young, but that is just my own view). This would at least allow you to bring him up to par without compromising your standards and those of your school, but still give you a chance to give value to this child and his family.
For what it's worth, when a new (or potential) student comes into my school, and is concerned about their rank in a previous school/system; I tell them that I did not issue them their rank, so it is not my place to take it away. However, this is not their previous school and at our school they will need to learn our cirriculum and meet our standards for any rank. I believe there is no point in "reinventing the wheel" and that if their skill and ability is up to the level of our students of that age and level, then they will be promoted to that level.
One advantage we have is that ours is a MMA system (though our trad. base is TKD) and while they may have comparable skills to our red belts in TKD (for example), do they have the same level of skill as our red belts in BJJ, Muay Thai, and the FMA's? You could use the same point regarding his lack of knowledge of required forms or any other part of your cirriculum that his previous school may have neglected (like waitng until he was older/more mature before awarding him even a poom. I actually am in favor of the poom, but only in exceptional cases and NEVER that young, but that is just my own view). This would at least allow you to bring him up to par without compromising your standards and those of your school, but still give you a chance to give value to this child and his family.
JasonASmith
Black Belt
Does anyone else see the delicacy of this situation?
I am sure that it's not that big of a deal, but this could turn into a real cluster, couldn't it?
I am sure that it's not that big of a deal, but this could turn into a real cluster, couldn't it?
This sounds like the right balance. It should be possible to make it clear that the student needs to make up the deficiencies of their previous training, but to do so in a way which encourages and supports this child, rather than approaching it purely negatively. If he and his mother can be made to understand that he is going to get a lot more depth and breadth now, and that his previous exposure to TKD, to whatever extent, might well allow him to master the skills necessary to advance more rapidly than a complete beginner, then he will be able to begin his new training with Iceman full of optimism and enthusiasm rather than disappointment.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #35
Wow, I didn't think I'd get so much response out of this question. Thanks to you all for your input. And keep it comin'.
I'm in the information gathering stage of it at this point. I've asked his folks to talk to Master X & find out the details of his test & certificate. (Especially, if it was really sent for). The kid's father told me today that the boy tested in March. The father told Master X then that the family was going to move out of town soon after the test. They did not for whatever reason. They left the dojang in July due to the cost. Master X called them after they left to get the boy's information for the KKW cert. (Why then & not in March? I wondered). His father was going to talk go this evening & talk w/ Master X to get details & find out when the cert. was coming. I told the father that, if he paid for it in March (which he did) it should be here long before now. He seemed very determined to have a talk w/ Master X after I told him that.
I had the same questions that Master Stoker raises. "If he tested for KKW Poom, he should know Tae Guek or PalGwe forms." This I will find out tomorrow. If he doesn't, this boy & his folks have been sold a bill of goods. Great snazzy uniform, nice belt, but no real Taekwondo. Regardless of what belt he winds up with in my class, he'll learn solid Taekwondo. If I find that a KKW cert. has his name on it, I'll accept him as a poom. But, I'll also bring him up to par. After all, he is only 8....he's got plenty of time to learn.
I'll keep ya posted.
I'm in the information gathering stage of it at this point. I've asked his folks to talk to Master X & find out the details of his test & certificate. (Especially, if it was really sent for). The kid's father told me today that the boy tested in March. The father told Master X then that the family was going to move out of town soon after the test. They did not for whatever reason. They left the dojang in July due to the cost. Master X called them after they left to get the boy's information for the KKW cert. (Why then & not in March? I wondered). His father was going to talk go this evening & talk w/ Master X to get details & find out when the cert. was coming. I told the father that, if he paid for it in March (which he did) it should be here long before now. He seemed very determined to have a talk w/ Master X after I told him that.
I had the same questions that Master Stoker raises. "If he tested for KKW Poom, he should know Tae Guek or PalGwe forms." This I will find out tomorrow. If he doesn't, this boy & his folks have been sold a bill of goods. Great snazzy uniform, nice belt, but no real Taekwondo. Regardless of what belt he winds up with in my class, he'll learn solid Taekwondo. If I find that a KKW cert. has his name on it, I'll accept him as a poom. But, I'll also bring him up to par. After all, he is only 8....he's got plenty of time to learn.
I'll keep ya posted.
Iceman you will do a great job of training him and getting him into KKW shape I have no doubt.
Terryowl
White Belt
Here is a fine example of the "belt factory" experience.
A child of 8 comes from another system. The child's parents spent a fortune for his training. His parents have no idea what they did or how the child was trained.
Sounds like a system they had going around the Michigan grade school/high school systems a few years ago, it was called "KICKS" or something..they who participated in it, said it was called TKD..we would get these kind of students regularly, and asked of any former training, or belt ranking, "white belt with black tip" or "purple belt with green stripe".
Asked about form's or what not, there weren't any form's or such. It was a basic self defense for up to 6 weeks. I think parents get bilked on this one.
I'd say, "good, he's a black belt in that system, I respect his rank, but in this school, it is a new system, he has to come up from white on up".
It doesn't matter, he is young. And if his parents are supporting his training, then they too want wants best for their child's interest.
It's like this..in the sytem I trained in, you maybe a 3-4th Dan in TKD, and then suddenly you decide to take up the HKD side, guess what? Your a White belt, regardless of your status. It's that simple. Or vise versa, you are involved in the HKD side of it, and then suddenly you wanted the TKD side of it, you started white and worked up.
It's "OK" to "belt" the kid! After all the kid's that I have seen train, go through the same identical training as an adult does. Why should their belt be any different, because of age? But IMHO, a child with "black belt" level, should wear the red/black belt that indicates, they are a "JR. black belt". Until they reach that certain age.
It's basically like the ranking of this forum/site. You start out "white belt" and work your way up the ladder. LOL!
A child of 8 comes from another system. The child's parents spent a fortune for his training. His parents have no idea what they did or how the child was trained.
Sounds like a system they had going around the Michigan grade school/high school systems a few years ago, it was called "KICKS" or something..they who participated in it, said it was called TKD..we would get these kind of students regularly, and asked of any former training, or belt ranking, "white belt with black tip" or "purple belt with green stripe".
Asked about form's or what not, there weren't any form's or such. It was a basic self defense for up to 6 weeks. I think parents get bilked on this one.
I'd say, "good, he's a black belt in that system, I respect his rank, but in this school, it is a new system, he has to come up from white on up".
It doesn't matter, he is young. And if his parents are supporting his training, then they too want wants best for their child's interest.
It's like this..in the sytem I trained in, you maybe a 3-4th Dan in TKD, and then suddenly you decide to take up the HKD side, guess what? Your a White belt, regardless of your status. It's that simple. Or vise versa, you are involved in the HKD side of it, and then suddenly you wanted the TKD side of it, you started white and worked up.
It's "OK" to "belt" the kid! After all the kid's that I have seen train, go through the same identical training as an adult does. Why should their belt be any different, because of age? But IMHO, a child with "black belt" level, should wear the red/black belt that indicates, they are a "JR. black belt". Until they reach that certain age.
It's basically like the ranking of this forum/site. You start out "white belt" and work your way up the ladder. LOL!
Terry's speaking for me and a lot of other people too. It soundsvery much as though the dojang head was handing them a line all along and figured his outfit was off the hook b/c the family was moving, and then, when they didn't, started going through this charade to keep them off his case. I foresee all kinds of stories about the slow Korean postal system, holdups at the KKW, office staff there `losing the data', imaginary correspondence with the staff there leading to frustration... but he'll keep trying... etc....keeping them at arm's length so long that they eventually drop the whole thing. I hope I'm wrong about that, but it just...sounds...so...fishy. To me, it sounds like this little boy and his family were mistreated. The good part is that now he'll get some really training. The bad part is that there are still a lot of people at the other place paying big bucks for bogus belts and fancy patches.
kosho
3rd Black Belt
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I had a student come from a different school. She had a 2nd degree black belt... I looked at her and we talked about what she could do and what she forgot. ( 4 hrs) I placed her at the rank of Green belt in my school and told her i would bring her to that level and we would go from there. She is doing well and is a strong role model in my school. ALSO I do Not give Rank of Black belt to kids under tha age of 16. even if they started with me at 5 yrs old... The kids earn youth ranks and when at 12 start adult ranks... Youth rank goes up to Brown belt, Than at adult ranks they are started at Blue belt...this has worked really well for me.. and the parents are all on board...
Hoped this helped.
Hoped this helped.
Kosho---I hope a lot of students are lucky enough to find their way to your dojang---the policy you describe sounds right on the money. Perfect combination of encouragement and maintenance of standards...
