Aikido.. The reality?

gpseymour

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Interesting, I have always heard it called a reinforced underhook, not the beef wellington but yes, I would argue this goes like PB&J with Aikido, its the same principle and I was taught and have taught it as a reaction to a resisted Kaeten Nage (rotary throw), although I was told it was a wrestling move not an Aikido one.
To me, with any aiki art, one of the biggest issues occurs when this kind of recovery isn't discussed. That both takes away a range of responses that work really well with the overall movements, and also incorporates the working assumption that the techniques don't fail except in ways that lead to other "open" techniques (those that are done at elbow distance or further). Not having these tools (and using that assumption) means there's not much way to do resistive partner training.
 

gpseymour

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Exactly. There's the old saying that "the best defense is a strong offense." While not everyone subscribes to that, the vast majority of untrained fighters do. This is why we always see videos of them punching each other in the face, with neither of them even trying to duck or block the other's punches. They're basically in berserk mode, which aikido/hapkido isn't equipped to handle.
IMO, those arts (well practiced) are better equipped for that than they are for a measured attack. If someone is very focused on just trying to get a hit in, they become much easier to draw into over-extending, by controlling distance. Controlling distance through movement is foundational IMO to arts derived from Daito-ryu (as both of those are).
 

Urban Trekker

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IMO, those arts (well practiced) are better equipped for that than they are for a measured attack. If someone is very focused on just trying to get a hit in, they become much easier to draw into over-extending, by controlling distance. Controlling distance through movement is foundational IMO to arts derived from Daito-ryu (as both of those are).
In my observation, all of the training that I watch aikidoka do, I can think of dozens of things that untrained fighters are likely to do to overwhelm them.

Like I said in another post, while you're manipulating one limb, you've got three others that you're getting attacked with. That's something that's not happening in the dojo (or dojang in the case of hapkido, because I'm including that too). But it will be happening in real life.
 

Dirty Dog

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In my observation, all of the training that I watch aikidoka do, I can think of dozens of things that untrained fighters are likely to do to overwhelm them.

Like I said in another post, while you're manipulating one limb, you've got three others that you're getting attacked with. That's something that's not happening in the dojo (or dojang in the case of hapkido, because I'm including that too). But it will be happening in real life.
Not so much, since you're talking about untrained fighters. I am involved in a physical confrontation on a regular basis. At least once every couple weeks. Untrained fighters mostly forget that they have two arms and two legs. At least briefly. Because untrained... And before they remember, I can put them on the floor, or into a wall, or whatever.
It's even better when they have a weapon. People with a weapon in one hand, even if it's just a stick, seem to totally forget the rest of their body. Control the weapon arm, and their whole attack falls apart.
It's a different story if they're trained, of course.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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while you're manipulating one limb, you've got three others that you're getting attacked with.
Not if you guide your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm. If you also bite your shin bone into your opponent's leading leg, you don't have to worry about his legs either.

Do untrained guys know how to do this? I don't think so.
 

Shatteredzen

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In my observation, all of the training that I watch aikidoka do, I can think of dozens of things that untrained fighters are likely to do to overwhelm them.

Like I said in another post, while you're manipulating one limb, you've got three others that you're getting attacked with. That's something that's not happening in the dojo (or dojang in the case of hapkido, because I'm including that too). But it will be happening in real life.
There are a lot of bad habits that get built up because of NOT getting hit or training to deal with a fully resisting opponent. That said, there are things you can do. When applying the technique you can account for these things with body positioning and movement. Unfortunately, we see many Aikido practitioners who do not understand good spacing/movement and positioning because they aren't doing the techniques live. Having incorrect assumptions about positioning and spacing leads to not keeping the correct distance and trying to apply techniques from the wrong distance. Aikido students have gotten out of the habit of being hit, so on top of the resistive training you need to put pads on and do drills with striking and they need to spend time learning what its like when their partner swings back. Like you said, its easy to overwhelm someone who doesn't consider someone shooting on them for a double leg or just rushing them with some punches. The good thing is the tools are in the system, we just need better training for people to get them and apply them.
 

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Not so much, since you're talking about untrained fighters. I am involved in a physical confrontation on a regular basis. At least once every couple weeks. Untrained fighters mostly forget that they have two arms and two legs. At least briefly. Because untrained... And before they remember, I can put them on the floor, or into a wall, or whatever.
It's even better when they have a weapon. People with a weapon in one hand, even if it's just a stick, seem to totally forget the rest of their body. Control the weapon arm, and their whole attack falls apart.
It's a different story if they're trained, of course.
Sounds like you're law enforcement. If that's the case, your badge is going to affect the phycology of the attacker. If you use a wristlock, for example, that will be the attacker's cue to agree to deescalate. I'm thinking that you may have different results if you were off duty.

For most, if a stand-up grappling technique does not serve the purpose of either clinching or a takedown, it's doing far more harm than good.
 

Dirty Dog

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Sounds like you're law enforcement.
Nope. I'm in the ER. We are in physical conflicts more often than most cops. With no badge, no taser, no gun.
For most, if a stand-up grappling technique does not serve the purpose of either clinching or a takedown, it's doing far more harm than good.
Uh huh. And how many fights are you basing this on? And why do people think that when we've applied a stand up lock that we then just stand there, rather than transitioning?
 

Shatteredzen

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Nope. I'm in the ER. We are in physical conflicts more often than most cops. With no badge, no taser, no gun.

Uh huh. And how many fights are you basing this on? And why do people think that when we've applied a stand up lock that we then just stand there, rather than transitioning?
Can confirm, the crazies love to go bat **** on the doctors and nurses. With all the arrestees getting brought into the ER it would not surprise me that the ER staff have way more fights than most cops.
 

Shatteredzen

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Sounds like you're law enforcement. If that's the case, your badge is going to affect the phycology of the attacker. If you use a wristlock, for example, that will be the attacker's cue to agree to deescalate. I'm thinking that you may have different results if you were off duty.

For most, if a stand-up grappling technique does not serve the purpose of either clinching or a takedown, it's doing far more harm than good.
If anything, the badge escalates the situation. The crooks know that if you have your hand on them they are going away and losing time with their family and freedom. Most people who are going to fight the cops are stupid enough to do it, irrational enough to hope they can win and desperate to not go to jail.
 

drop bear

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Nope. I'm in the ER. We are in physical conflicts more often than most cops. With no badge, no taser, no gun.

Uh huh. And how many fights are you basing this on? And why do people think that when we've applied a stand up lock that we then just stand there, rather than transitioning?

Clinching is better. It is just safer, denies them space, gives you more to work with. And if things go pear shaped you can take their back more easily.

 

Dirty Dog

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Clinching is better. It is just safer, denies them space, gives you more to work with. And if things go pear shaped you can take their back more easily.
Sure. Sometimes. Because nothing is always. You use what is available. Again, the idea that you'd apply one lock and then just stop is... silly...
If I take the hand that is reaching for my throat, use the arm as a lever to pivot them face first into a wall, it's remarkably easy to then take their back. Or whatever. Options.
 

Shatteredzen

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Clinching is better. It is just safer, denies them space, gives you more to work with. And if things go pear shaped you can take their back more easily.
Objectively but the ER is its own mess, you have patients, doctors and nurses and other bystanders who you have to protect from the random crackhead who pulls a shank. You have trays full of sharp instruments, heavy and/or delicate equipment, etc. The important thing is to react and do something before multiple people end up getting hurt because of inaction. Its an imperfect scenario and the terrain will heavily dictate what you do and don't have room for.
 

Dirty Dog

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Objectively but the ER is its own mess, you have patients, doctors and nurses and other bystanders who you have to protect from the random crackhead who pulls a shank. You have trays full of sharp instruments, heavy and/or delicate equipment, etc. The important thing is to react and do something before multiple people end up getting hurt because of inaction. Its an imperfect scenario and the terrain will heavily dictate what you do and don't have room for.
True. I one time used a crash cart to stop a guy. We had just done a cardioversion and I was coming out, just as the guy bolted towards the ambulance doors. I shoved the crash cart out in front of him. Boom.

Admittedly, the defibrillator being knocked off the cart and falling on the floor wasn't ideal, but it stopped him.
 

Shatteredzen

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True. I one time used a crash cart to stop a guy. We had just done a cardioversion and I was coming out, just as the guy bolted towards the ambulance doors. I shoved the crash cart out in front of him. Boom.

Admittedly, the defibrillator being knocked off the cart and falling on the floor wasn't ideal, but it stopped him.
We showed up one time to a guy barricaded into an overflow room with a crash cart, we just stood outside until he got tired of yelling and asked for some water lmao.
 

Dirty Dog

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We showed up one time to a guy barricaded into an overflow room with a crash cart, we just stood outside until he got tired of yelling and asked for some water lmao.
Sure. If they're barricaded, they're staying in. And if there isn't anybody in there for them to hurt, let them yell.
Treated a guy for hypothermia one time. He'd barricaded himself in a backyard shed. The PD stuck a hose into the gap between wall and roof. It was February. In Colorado...
People are weird. And circumstances should dictate the details of the response.
 

drop bear

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Objectively but the ER is its own mess, you have patients, doctors and nurses and other bystanders who you have to protect from the random crackhead who pulls a shank. You have trays full of sharp instruments, heavy and/or delicate equipment, etc. The important thing is to react and do something before multiple people end up getting hurt because of inaction. Its an imperfect scenario and the terrain will heavily dictate what you do and don't have room for.

Not really.

If you have a specific concern you think that doesn't address fine.

If you are coming up with some metaphysical junk about how the humidity of the street lights means that these basic mechanics don't work therefore Aikido.

Then there will be a cranky response.
 

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Nope. I'm in the ER. We are in physical conflicts more often than most cops. With no badge, no taser, no gun.
I suppose things are different in Colorado. Here, and in the other three states that I've lived in, local law enforcement officers are assigned to ERs so that ER staff don't have to do it themselves.
Uh huh. And how many fights are you basing this on? And why do people think that when we've applied a stand up lock that we then just stand there, rather than transitioning?
This is based on the presumption that someone is only aikido/hapkido techniques without going outside of it.
 
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Dirty Dog

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I suppose things are different in Colorado. Here, and in the other three states that I've lived in, local law enforcement officers assigned to ERs so that ER staff don't have to do it themselves.
I've never worked in an ER that had PD assigned, not even the decade I spent working in the aforementioned most violent city in Colorado, and for various reasons (which I'm not going to get into here) I think it's not necessarily a good idea.
This is based on the presumption that someone is only aikido/hapkido techniques without going outside of it.
Oh. I get it. So it's based on unreal and incorrect assumptions. It all makes sense now.
 

drop bear

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The issue you have is these techniques are quite often trained and therefore applied in either the worst possible position. Or from some magical circumstance that doesn't happen.

So if I walk up in front of you and grab your wrist you can punch me in the face before I can do anything about it. It is an incredibly risky position.

This is generally solve by this magical clock position where I instead basically walk up behind you. But here you have the issue that they may not conveniently turn around.

All this is solve by doing these stand up locks with two or three guys. And either capturing both arms at once or having one in front and one behind.

But good clinch to two on one isn't effected by you having these advantages and so I suggest you still do them. Just in case the guy breaks free or something.
 
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