Digging Deeper....

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Spinedoc

Spinedoc

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IMO, all throwing techniques should be trained in pairs in opposite directions. This way you don't care whether your opponent yields or resists.

Can Aikido training be able to help you on wrestling mat like this? Your thought?


Aikido never resists. If we feel resistance in a technique, we simply switch to a different technique. Also known as henka waza. For example, if I am attempting to execute a shomenuchi ikkyo on an opponent, and he resists before I can capture his kuzushi, I simply move with his resistance. In the case of that technique, I might switch to a maki otoshi or sumi otoshi. We want to avoid the battle of strength. That is absolute anathema to aikido. BTW, almost all arts to this. These same principles I see all the time in BJJ.
 

gpseymour

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I think there are a few misconceptions here. It is true, that we do not start in a bent structure. This has a lot to do with the concept of Zanshin. I would say, that for on armed, 1 on 1, combat, there are number of Arts that are better than aikido. However, we make 2 assumptions that most arts do not make. 1. every attacker has a weapon. EVERYONE has a weapon. Could be a bottle, could be a pool cue, could be a stick, could be a knife, could be a glass, there is always a weapon involved. 2. every attack or has friends. The fight will never be fair, and will never be 1 on 1. We assume always, that there will be another person joining the fight.

In those situations, when you are fighting against weapons or multiple attackers, Aikido is likely a better choice than many other arts.

Also, we could create the weight shift if we need. At lower levels, we train in a static, non dynamic manner. People have to feel and explore the movement of the technique. For example, I was working with a junior student the other night on shomenuchi ikkyo. He was struggling, as he kept trying to push my arm in a linear manner. I resisted, and demonstrated that he was not doing the technique properly. I showed him how to employ a circular motion that worked around the resistance. We always discuss where the resistance is, and how to work around it. At higher levels, the techniques by necessity have to become dynamic. Concept of sen sen no sen. You should already be moving before your opponent even touches you. This way, resistance can never be established. It takes a long time however to get to that level.

As far as creating weight shift, this is where atemi becomes so valuable. O'Sensei once said that 90% of his Aikido was atemi. What he meant by that, was reacting to an attack before it lands, and using strikes to off-balance your opponent before throwing. Unfortunately, most aikido dojos do not practice this. That does not however mean that it is not there.
I don't get to see much of the high-level (beyond the first couple of years) of Aikido, since I'm always a visitor. I can say quite definitively that in most Aikido schools I've visited (not all), strikes are nearly non-existent in training. In most, I can watch or attend a few classes in a row and literally never see a single strike used by the defender. I agree that Ueshiba used more strikes (at least early in his career - his videos from later in life are much softer). My thought on this has long been that his early students mostly already had good striking, so he didn't teach it - just expected them to copy what he did. I think most taught similar to how he taught them, so also didn't teach strikes much, and that has gradually reduced the strikes found in most lines of his art. There are probably other reasons for that lack.

And while I'm sure that most Aikidoka (experienced) can make those posture shifts to change structure, I never see them used except occasionally to be lower within a technique. Again, I can only speak for the training I've seen and experienced in Aikido schools. If there are lines of Aikido teaching more strikes and posture changes, that's a good sign.
 

gpseymour

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Aikido never resists. If we feel resistance in a technique, we simply switch to a different technique. Also known as henka waza. For example, if I am attempting to execute a shomenuchi ikkyo on an opponent, and he resists before I can capture his kuzushi, I simply move with his resistance. In the case of that technique, I might switch to a maki otoshi or sumi otoshi. We want to avoid the battle of strength. That is absolute anathema to aikido. BTW, almost all arts to this. These same principles I see all the time in BJJ.
I look at Judo for an example of what is being discussed. Sometimes the resistance isn't a push-pull, so there's nothing feeding the movement for Aikido. Judo would then (often) combine a push and pull (yes, with muscle) to create movement. As often as not, it creates active (moving) resistance that they then use to throw. So that last part is very similar to an aiki approach, but needed a non-aiki use of muscle to get there. There are both small and large examples of this - small being where they're not providing enough input for the aiki flow, and large being where they're not proving anything that gives effective input to it.

Bear in mind, I don't know all the same techniques you do, nor with the same approach. So it's possible you have answers to this I'm not aware of. Your other descriptions of your training sound like it's significantly different from what I've seen and experienced at Aikido dojos, so it may be you even train against the kind of resistance I'm talking about, but I've not seen that practice at other Aikido dojos.
 

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IMO, all throwing techniques should be trained in pairs in opposite directions. This way you don't care whether your opponent yields or resists.

Can Aikido training be able to help you on wrestling mat like this? Your thought?
Depends on what you think Aikido is.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Aikido never resists. ... If we feel resistance in a technique, we simply switch to a different technique.
An Aikido guy may never resist but his opponent may. To borrow your opponent's force is the general principle for all wrestling art. Will you be able to find any Aikido clip that

- You try to throw your opponent forward.
- He resists.
- You then throw him backward.

In other words, do Aikido guys train combo - use move 1 to set up move 2?
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Depends on what you think Aikido is.
You train MA in order to solve certain problems. Your problem may come from boxing, MT, Judo, wrestling, ...

IMO, Aikido is similar to Taiji. An Aikido guy may like to wait and expect his opponent to commit on something. In most of the wrestling art, one should give before he can take.

An example of "give before take" can be.

- You pull the back of your opponent's neck toward you.
- If he yields into you, you sweep his foot and throw him forward.
- If he resists against you, you push his neck, cut his leg, and throw him backward.

How you may throw your opponent depends on your opponent's respond. But you make the initial move and offer the initial force instead.
 
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An Aikido guy may never resist but his opponent may. To borrow your opponent's force is the general principle for all wrestling art. Will you be able to find any Aikido clip that

- You try to throw your opponent forward.
- He resists.
- You then throw him backward.

In other words, do Aikido guys train combo - use move 1 to set up move 2?

All the time. That's the foundation behind Henka Waza. Most of the time, this is not practiced until the higher kyu ranks. You won't be tested on it until nidan at the earliest. Here's a video of Berthiaume Shihan, The first part is just explaining the basis behind the shihonage (strikes included) and then the second part deals with counters and transitioning into a different technique.

 

gpseymour

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All the time. That's the foundation behind Henka Waza. Most of the time, this is not practiced until the higher kyu ranks. You won't be tested on it until nidan at the earliest. Here's a video of Berthiaume Shihan, The first part is just explaining the basis behind the shihonage (strikes included) and then the second part deals with counters and transitioning into a different technique.

That's definitely a level I've not seen - when visiting (or at seminars) I wouldn't be involved in anything that far into a curriculum. Thanks for sharing it.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Aikido uses a lot of "floating hand" that you use both hands to control one of your opponent's arms, twist his arm, and force him to flip. IMO, this will give your opponent one free hand that can do a lot of counters on you.

For example, at 0.18, his opponent's left hand can hook punch at his head. What's the Aikido solution for that free arm?

 
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gpseymour

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Aikido uses a lot of "floating hand" that you use both hands to control one of your opponent's arms, twist his arm, and force him to flip. IMO, this will give your opponent one free hand that can do a lot of counters on you. What's the Aikido solution for that free arm?
NGA has similar positions in some techniques. My answer to that is that you have to break their structure enough to limit the counters. If you don't/can't, then that particular technique isn't actually available yet.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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NGA has similar positions in some techniques. My answer to that is that you have to break their structure enough to limit the counters. If you don't/can't, then that particular technique isn't actually available yet.
Many throwing art systems have ignored that free arm. At 0.31 of this clip, when he moves in with a hip throw, his opponent's free left arm can push his head back (or just punch on his head). You have 2 arms. Your opponent also have 2 arms. To ignore your opponent's free arm is not proper IMO.

 

gpseymour

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Many throwing art systems have ignored that free arm. At 0.31 of this clip, when he moves in with a hip throw, his opponent's free left arm can push his head back (or just punch on his head). You have 2 arms. Your opponent also have 2 arms. To ignore your opponent's free arm is not proper IMO.

I agree. That was the point about breaking structure. If I have them off-balance the right way, no punch will have any power and I can limit their reach to be able to push/pull/grab. That has to be a concern with every interaction. I see a lot of folks (even some in NGA) who forget that someone grabbing with their right hand still has an arm left (no pun intended).
 
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Many throwing art systems have ignored that free arm. At 0.31 of this clip, when he moves in with a hip throw, his opponent's free left arm can push his head back (or just punch on his head). You have 2 arms. Your opponent also have 2 arms. To ignore your opponent's free arm is not proper IMO.


We don't ignore it. We stay out of the way. The first fundamental in Aikido is GETTING off line. At that 18 second mark that you note, he is off line, and would strike at Uke's face, this causes uke to try and block or protect, rather than strike. As you do that, you are already positioning for shihonage. Remember, this is being done at slow speeds in a seminar teaching the form. At high speeds, ideally, the throw should be happening before uke really knows what happened.
 

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I agree. That was the point about breaking structure. If I have them off-balance the right way, no punch will have any power and I can limit their reach to be able to push/pull/grab. That has to be a concern with every interaction. I see a lot of folks (even some in NGA) who forget that someone grabbing with their right hand still has an arm left (no pun intended).
Sometime even if you may have crashed your opponent's structure, since the clinch has combine your structure and your opponent's structure as one, your opponent can still borrow your structure and apply his free hand.
 

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Sometime even if you may have crashed your opponent's structure, since the clinch has combine your structure and your opponent's structure as one, your opponent can still borrow your structure and apply his free hand.
In clinch, the problem is a bit different - the additional contact does join structures, so you won't be able to break their structure as fully from one side (unless you can get it broken backwards). But then, in clinch, you're probably already dealing with both hands.
 

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We don't ignore it. We stay out of the way. The first fundamental in Aikido is GETTING off line.
To move away from your opponent's back hand can be a good solution. But when you throw your opponent, that distance will become shorter again.

One general solution for this is to use "tucking", you guide your opponent's free arm away from your entering path. But if you use both hands to control one of your opponent's arms, you don't have another free hand to do that "tucking".

1. every attacker has a weapon.
What if your opponent has 2 daggers, one in each hand? Is it real a good idea to use both hands to control one of your opponent's arms and give him one free arm?
 
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Aikido never resists. If we feel resistance in a technique, we simply switch to a different technique. Also known as henka waza. For example, if I am attempting to execute a shomenuchi ikkyo on an opponent, and he resists before I can capture his kuzushi, I simply move with his resistance. In the case of that technique, I might switch to a maki otoshi or sumi otoshi. We want to avoid the battle of strength. That is absolute anathema to aikido. BTW, almost all arts to this. These same principles I see all the time in BJJ.

Yeah. But BJJ also a fight.
 

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To move away from your opponent's back hand can be a good solution. But when you throw your opponent, that distance will become shorter again.

One general solution for this is to use "tucking", you guide your opponent's free arm away from your entering path. But if you use both hands to control one of your opponent's arms, you don't have another free hand to do that "tucking".


What if your opponent has 2 daggers, one in each hand? Is it real a good idea to use both hands to control one of your opponent's arms and give him one free arm?

Lol.

People hate two daggers.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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People hate two daggers.
In wrestling, you

- use your right arm to deal with your opponent's left arm, and
- use your left arm to deal with your opponent's right arm.

I don't believe any MA system can avoid that general principle.

wrestling_3.jpg
 

drop bear

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In wrestling, you

- use your right arm to deal with your opponent's left arm, and
- use your left arm to deal with your opponent's right arm.

I don't believe any MA system can avoid that general principle.

wrestling_3.jpg

There are 2on1 controls. But for some strange reason the other guy doesn't just let you walk up and take them.

 
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