Aikido.. The reality?

Shatteredzen

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So this sort of stuff.


Which would be awesome if it worked. But it basically doesn't. Or you tear the guy apart doing it as he face plants in to the concrete at a huge rate of knots. Or gets his arm broken because he wants to thrash.

And also why the comment it is used in police defensive tactics syllabus is not an endorsement for a technique.
Yes but no, that guy is ****, he has no weight transfer, no dynamic movement, the armbar needs to be one flowing move. Here:


Not perfect, but this absolutely works and its how I learned it in MCMAP, he gets a full hip transfer, if you "open the gate" and "trace the C" with the back support leg you get a dynamic throw, if you do it all at once, this relies on the forearm acting as the (fulcrim?) on the opponents arm.
 

drop bear

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Yes to the straight arm takedown with the wrist pin. This is an area where Aikido helps though and its provable because its movement, the randori does help teach how to "stack" attackers so that they are more in line and so that you can attempt to deal with them more individually. I have never seen this work with JUST the aikido but there is something to be said for circling out and getting two guys bunched up so that you can strike one and draw a baton or try to disable one with a baton combo like whats called "three from the ring".


Despite what you may think of the moves, just watch his movement, notice how he maneuvers and sets the attackers up to force them to deal with him one at a time. While we can't talk about the moves because they are not fully resisting, they are moving at full speed and the movement here is positioning them so that he can deal with each of them individually.

Not in that video. That is just junk. Nobody is learning anything.

Sorry. The attackers are learning great timing and positioning so that they can are that one guy look awesome.

The secret of stage fighting is the guy getting beaten up is doing all the work.
 

drop bear

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Yes but no, that guy is ****, he has no weight transfer, no dynamic movement, the armbar needs to be one flowing move. Here:


Not perfect, but this absolutely works and its how I learned it in MCMAP, he gets a full hip transfer, if you "open the gate" and "trace the C" with the back support leg you get a dynamic throw, if you do it all at once, this relies on the forearm acting as the (fulcrim?) on the opponents arm.

You might get it off if you used a whizzer. Or really jam the head down. But otherwise it is low percentage.

You can do the arm bar takedown better. But even then you will struggle.

There is a version that works better than that called the beef Wellington that sets up the same. But abandons the arn bar for positional dominance.


To get the arm. You need to control the head. Not the arm.
 

Shatteredzen

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Not in that video. That is just junk. Nobody is learning anything.

Sorry. The attackers are learning great timing and positioning so that they can are that one guy look awesome.

The secret of stage fighting is the guy getting beaten up is doing all the work.
Its a randori demo from a traditional school, look past the interpretive dance with the bokken for a second and just pay attention to his footwork and movement, he absolutely is moving full speed and loading his opponents into a queue. Any hesitation here can be chocked up to the speed of the movement and the safety issue with the bokkens but even with that, the speed is good, his positioning is good, he is seeing and addressing each attacker in time and he isn't getting any major freebies by the students with where he is facing like you see in other randori vids. What he is doing here with his footwork will absolutely work to position his opponents. I'm not saying he can down them all, I'm saying he is legitimately stacking them up. I don't think that part of the demo is overly gifted to him.
 

drop bear

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Its a randori demo from a traditional school, look past the interpretive dance with the bokken for a second and just pay attention to his footwork and movement, he absolutely is moving full speed and loading his opponents into a queue. Any hesitation here can be chocked up to the speed of the movement and the safety issue with the bokkens but even with that, the speed is good, his positioning is good, he is seeing and addressing each attacker in time and he isn't getting any major freebies by the students with where he is facing like you see in other randori vids. What he is doing here with his footwork will absolutely work to position his opponents. I'm not saying he can down them all, I'm saying he is legitimately stacking them up. I don't think that part of the demo is overly gifted to him.

That whole demo is gifted to him. That is the culmination of years of students training that drill. And not being the sneaky bustards who cuts the guy off to land a cheap shot.

look at hapkido. And they are the masters of the compliant demo at 100%

Still a demo though.
 

Shatteredzen

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Very interesting video. My take aways are:
It looks like a good training drill to work timing and transitions. The shortcoming (from my admittedly novice understanding of aikido) is that isn't the way it is exactly meant to be used.

As a TKD black belt, with a blue belt in bjj, who has cross trained for years with aikido (yoshinkan style) basic skills; I've always thought that when done correctly and for real, the goal was often to injure the opponent... not necessarily to throw him.
By this I mean, if I turn the pinky finger side of your hand over your forearm and elbow (to the outside), 1 of 2 things should happen. Someone with ukemi training will feel the danger and go with the pressure to avoid injury (resulting in a seemingly unresisted throw). When the same move is done on an untrained individual, the result is a broken wrist... but no throw. The success of the technique is not in it looking like 2 training partners using break falling techniques to avoid injury. It often actually looks messy and rough.

This brings me to my other observation. The video shows 2 similarly trained fighters, who know what the other guy is trying and how to resist it. You could compare it to rolling in BJJ, but that's part of where the disconnect is. Where BJJ rolling is (mostly) about obtaining position and working for a submission; I view aikido skills as more '1 and done'. The training to transition to another technique if the 1st or 2nd didn't work is necessary (and why 2 akidokas training often looks smooth and without resistance).
I've always looked at and said it this way (and this applies to the other arts as well - not counting vast skill discrepancies). "Nothing works if your opponent knows what you're about to do".
If he knows you're going for a front kick, or 1,2,3 punching combo, he'll dodge.
If I know you're trying for an americana from side control, I won't let you.
If he knows you're trying a wrist lock. It won't work.
If I smack you in the nose 1st, you may not realize my intentions for your wrist and elbow until it's too late. It's all about setup.

Now take all this from someone who has not studied aikido full time. This is how I have been able to work it into my other skills and found real value and use in the right situation. (Besides the time that a forward break fall I learned while training aikido may have literally saved my life once).
Yes and no, you are making good observations but there is a discrepancy in the training with this and it get's exacerbated over time. So if you resist a kotegaishi for example, very little is going to happen to you, if you get put off balance and the guy does the sideways movement to torque the wrist more and throws their weight into it and you refuse to go with the fall you can get a break or joint injury assuming the guy did it with gusto. There's inconsistencies like that with a lot of the techniques where the uke/nage drills have conditioned people to believe they can't resist the throws or they will get super hurt. Surprisingly, there are a fair amount of injuries from bad uke/nage drills reported in Aikido but I think this is mainly from accidents over resistance. If you look at the way the wrist turns and some other stuff work, you are usually manipulating the joint towards the ground to carry the momentum and so there is no counter resistance from the motion to the way the joint is bending to cause a break. If you torque the wrist the wrong way to gain leverage and then back and overpower the resistance, you can get a hyper-extension at one or other side of the technique from "not going with it" but that requires quite a bit of torque and you are much more likely to just fall over as a reflex than to really try to muscle through it. More commonly you get the injury because someone wasn't ready and the other guy really went ham on their partner.

The trick is to train the uke/nage to do it safely and to increase resistance over time based on how the two partners feel. The teacher should encourage them to push their limits safely until they are both approximating full resistance, this allows both students to develop their pain resistance to the technique over time so that they can think/react under the application of the technique. Once they are both in tune with each other or experienced enough to resist safely and know where their failure points are where they "have to" breakfall, you get someone who can defend the technique and apply it against resistance. If its done with resistance, the uke/nage will train in the counter to the technique as the student comes to understand the mechanics of how the techniques work. The breakfall as you pointed out IS a counter and something that gets overlooked because its part of "the dance" but the person is learning how to escape those holds and break their fall/ roll away/ etc if they practice under resistance. The danger is that the students get too comfortable or they start to anticipate the technique and they give it away. Overtime the sloppy drilling turns into the ballet Aikido or no touch sillyness in a really bad school.
 

drop bear

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Yes and no, you are making good observations but there is a discrepancy in the training with this and it get's exacerbated over time. So if you resist a kotegaishi for example, very little is going to happen to you, if you get put off balance and the guy does the sideways movement to torque the wrist more and throws their weight into it and you refuse to go with the fall you can get a break or joint injury assuming the guy did it with gusto. There's inconsistencies like that with a lot of the techniques where the uke/nage drills have conditioned people to believe they can't resist the throws or they will get super hurt. Surprisingly, there are a fair amount of injuries from bad uke/nage drills reported in Aikido but I think this is mainly from accidents over resistance. If you look at the way the wrist turns and some other stuff work, you are usually manipulating the joint towards the ground to carry the momentum and so there is no counter resistance from the motion to the way the joint is bending to cause a break. If you torque the wrist the wrong way to gain leverage and then back and overpower the resistance, you can get a hyper-extension at one or other side of the technique from "not going with it" but that requires quite a bit of torque and you are much more likely to just fall over as a reflex than to really try to muscle through it. More commonly you get the injury because someone wasn't ready and the other guy really went ham on their partner.

The trick is to train the uke/nage to do it safely and to increase resistance over time based on how the two partners feel. The teacher should encourage them to push their limits safely until they are both approximating full resistance, this allows both students to develop their pain resistance to the technique over time so that they can think/react under the application of the technique. Once they are both in tune with each other or experienced enough to resist safely and know where their failure points are where they "have to" breakfall, you get someone who can defend the technique and apply it against resistance. If its done with resistance, the uke/nage will train in the counter to the technique as the student comes to understand the mechanics of how the techniques work. The breakfall as you pointed out IS a counter and something that gets overlooked because its part of "the dance" but the person is learning how to escape those holds and break their fall/ roll away/ etc if they practice under resistance. The danger is that the students get too comfortable or they start to anticipate the technique and they give it away. Overtime the sloppy drilling turns into the ballet Aikido or no touch sillyness in a really bad school.

As far as injurys go. You can train these things mostly. Just don't be a screaming duchebag about it.

So if you have the wrist lock or the heel hook and the other guy thrashes. Let it go and move on to something else.

The sub is not so important that you need to snap something off. Especially with things standing arm bars that can Ironically not work and at the same time injure your partner.
 

Shatteredzen

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You might get it off if you used a whizzer. Or really jam the head down. But otherwise it is low percentage.

You can do the arm bar takedown better. But even then you will struggle.

There is a version that works better than that called the beef Wellington that sets up the same. But abandons the arn bar for positional dominance.


To get the arm. You need to control the head. Not the arm.
Interesting, I have always heard it called a reinforced underhook, not the beef wellington but yes, I would argue this goes like PB&J with Aikido, its the same principle and I was taught and have taught it as a reaction to a resisted Kaeten Nage (rotary throw), although I was told it was a wrestling move not an Aikido one.
 

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Yes and no, you are making good observations but there is a discrepancy in the training with this and it get's exacerbated over time.
Figured there had to be a lot that I couldn't see from my experience level.
Think of me as the aikido equivalent of the guy who learns 3 chords and 1 song on his guitar. I can pull off a passable House of the Rising Sun around the campfire... just don't expect me to start taking requests 😄
 

Shatteredzen

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As far as injurys go. You can train these things mostly. Just don't be a screaming duchebag about it.

So if you have the wrist lock or the heel hook and the other guy thrashes. Let it go and move on to something else.

The sub is not so important that you need to snap something off. Especially with things standing arm bars that can Ironically not work and at the same time injure your partner.
Totally agree, I show at 10%/30%/50% and then depending on the comfort level of the student I will show the full speed movement but then I have them do it to me before they get someone else so I can troubleshoot too soft or hard before they get their hands on someone else. The trust gradually progresses within the class as people get comfortable and more competitive, I try to encourage the competitive and look out for the safety stuff by jumping in when people get a little too worked up and it starts looking uncontrolled.
 

Shatteredzen

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Figured there had to be a lot that I couldn't see from my experience level.
Think of me as the aikido equivalent of the guy who learns 3 chords and 1 song on his guitar. I can pull off a passable House of the Rising Sun around the campfire... just don't expect me to start taking requests 😄
You seem to be a bit farther than that and its probably due to your breadth of training having gone in other areas. I say good observations and I don't mean that lightly. I meet Aikido dan's all the time and they know all the moves and couldn't give a two minute lecture on the theory and philosophy behind Aikido. There is a huge, huge buildup of FUD, possibly more than any other martial art, within the Aikido community itself. What I see in the difference between your understanding and what I pointed out is that someone told you the regular Aikido thing of "go with it so you don't get hurt". This is only partially true and only with some techniques and once you are in motion.

The technique can be resisted safely even, for as long as you are able to do it while the resistance is simply countering the incoming motion of the Aikido technique, so for a wristlock, just turtle and grab your own arm and stabilize the wrist, you won't go anywhere. This is because the Aikido technique is designed to redirect the incoming momentum from the adversary, when you stop or reverse the momentum, there is nothing to redirect. Now if the other guy "muscles" the technique, what we would call a "dirty" technique, he will attempt to generate that lost momentum by muscling you in the opposite direction of the technique and then quickly snapping back the other way to force the technique to work by temporarily getting you to move in response to the change in direction and then attempting to defeat a lack of resistance by quickly changing back to the original motion. If you fight the technique then, assuming the other guy is able to overpower you and he gets it off before you can set yourself to resist, you get two opposing forces on the joint and that's where you get hurt. If you are already "in" the technique, that's where you want to go with the fall, because its too late, you will just add your resistance to the impact.

If you want to practice under resistance, you and your partner should both be on the same page with how much speed and resistance to give and receive. When you get to that predetermined break point, you give or they do, etc. The trick is not to get comfortable with this and to increase the resistance until you are both as close to full everything as you can safely manage. This improves you as well as the partners ability to cope with falls, throws, etc and like in BJJ rolling, you both get experience turning into techniques or muscling things, etc and this should translate into Judo/BJJ locks and throws because its all just different angles of resistance. What we see in traditional schools is there's no competition, there's no resistance, so there's no practical application and if you don't bring that with you in, you don't get it in these schools. Then you develop bad habits, you fail to learn the actual mechanics of the locks and throws so you can't actually apply them because you aren't used to having to overcome the resistance and still manage the momentum of the opponent. That's why we see so many Aikido people just stall out when they get stuck and why traditional Aikido turns into battle Kabuki.
 

Shatteredzen

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That whole demo is gifted to him. That is the culmination of years of students training that drill. And not being the sneaky bustards who cuts the guy off to land a cheap shot.

look at hapkido. And they are the masters of the compliant demo at 100%

Still a demo though.
I think your being a little cranky about this one. Plus, its a really cool demo at least lol.
 

drop bear

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Yes and no, you are making good observations but there is a discrepancy in the training with this and it get's exacerbated over time. So if you resist a kotegaishi for example, very little is going to happen to you, if you get put off balance and the guy does the sideways movement to torque the wrist more and throws their weight into it and you refuse to go with the fall you can get a break or joint injury assuming the guy did it with gusto. There's inconsistencies like that with a lot of the techniques where the uke/nage drills have conditioned people to believe they can't resist the throws or they will get super hurt. Surprisingly, there are a fair amount of injuries from bad uke/nage drills reported in Aikido but I think this is mainly from accidents over resistance. If you look at the way the wrist turns and some other stuff work, you are usually manipulating the joint towards the ground to carry the momentum and so there is no counter resistance from the motion to the way the joint is bending to cause a break. If you torque the wrist the wrong way to gain leverage and then back and overpower the resistance, you can get a hyper-extension at one or other side of the technique from "not going with it" but that requires quite a bit of torque and you are much more likely to just fall over as a reflex than to really try to muscle through it. More commonly you get the injury because someone wasn't ready and the other guy really went ham on their partner.

The trick is to train the uke/nage to do it safely and to increase resistance over time based on how the two partners feel. The teacher should encourage them to push their limits safely until they are both approximating full resistance, this allows both students to develop their pain resistance to the technique over time so that they can think/react under the application of the technique. Once they are both in tune with each other or experienced enough to resist safely and know where their failure points are where they "have to" breakfall, you get someone who can defend the technique and apply it against resistance. If its done with resistance, the uke/nage will train in the counter to the technique as the student comes to understand the mechanics of how the techniques work. The breakfall as you pointed out IS a counter and something that gets overlooked because its part of "the dance" but the person is learning how to escape those holds and break their fall/ roll away/ etc if they practice under resistance. The danger is that the students get too comfortable or they start to anticipate the technique and they give it away. Overtime the sloppy drilling turns into the ballet Aikido or no touch sillyness in a really bad school.

Exept this is supposed to be a device to subdue people without causing undue injury.
 

drop bear

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I think your being a little cranky about this one. Plus, its a really cool demo at least lol.

Look I like watching fight choreo But it is a completely different method of training than fight training.

 

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You might get it off if you used a whizzer. Or really jam the head down. But otherwise it is low percentage.

You can do the arm bar takedown better. But even then you will struggle.

There is a version that works better than that called the beef Wellington that sets up the same. But abandons the arn bar for positional dominance.


To get the arm. You need to control the head. Not the arm.

This really shows why MMA and Bjj chose wrestling over other methods for standing grappling. Simply far more practical and efficient than other methods, and it continues to evolve instead of staying stagnant.
 

jobo

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This really shows why MMA and Bjj chose wrestling over other methods for standing grappling. Simply far more practical and efficient than other methods, and it continues to evolve instead of staying stagnant.
in what way has mma evolved in the last 12 months?
 

Hanzou

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in what way has mma evolved in the last 12 months?

12 months isn't a large enough span of time. Look at the first UFC compared to the current UFC, and there's a clear evolution from that point to the current point.

Bjj has also evolved in a similar fashion.
 

jobo

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12 months isn't a large enough span of time. Look at the first UFC compared to the current UFC, and there's a clear evolution from that point to the current point.

Bjj has also evolved in a similar fashion.
12 months isn't a large enough span of time. Look at the first UFC compared to the current UFC, and there's a clear evolution from that point to the current point.

Bjj has also evolved in a similar fashion.
you said it continues to evolve, if you cant show it evolved in the last 12 months, then you have noway of showing that any evolution has occurred or therefore that any evolution is continual

it's also worth noting that evolution is not always for the better, things can and frequently do get worse over time
 

Hanzou

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you said it continues to evolve, if you cant show it evolved in the last 12 months, then you have noway of showing that any evolution has occurred or therefore that any evolution is continual

it's also worth noting that evolution is not always for the better, things can and frequently do get worse over time

Yes, it evolves in small ways that you can't tell, but over time the change is obvious and huge. So no, I can't tell you how MMA/Bjj has evolved in the last year, but 10 years from now they will show clear evolution from where they are currently, which shows that evolution is taking place.

Further I would argue that both have evolved in a positive direction in the last 30 years.
 

jobo

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Yes, it evolves in small ways that you can't tell, but over time the change is obvious and huge. So no, I can't tell you how MMA/Bjj has evolved in the last year, but 10 years from now they will show clear evolution from where they are currently, which shows that evolution is taking place.

Further I would argue that both have evolved in a positive direction in the last 30 years.
,

so do you have any proof that it has evolved in the last 12 months to support your statement that evolution is continual

I'm not really intrested in your fortune telling skills
 

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