Aikido.. The reality?

gpseymour

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In my observation, all of the training that I watch aikidoka do, I can think of dozens of things that untrained fighters are likely to do to overwhelm them.

Like I said in another post, while you're manipulating one limb, you've got three others that you're getting attacked with. That's something that's not happening in the dojo (or dojang in the case of hapkido, because I'm including that too). But it will be happening in real life.
That should be addressed in the training. It isn't always, but it should be. I think a lot of time the kata (and even the near-kata) practices make it appear the techniques assume the other limbs are uninvolved, but that isn't the case in the background fundamentals. Once there is contact, structure control (shifting weight and movement) should take legs out of the picture as weapons, and positioning should take the other arm out of the picture.
 

gpseymour

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Sure. Sometimes. Because nothing is always. You use what is available. Again, the idea that you'd apply one lock and then just stop is... silly...
If I take the hand that is reaching for my throat, use the arm as a lever to pivot them face first into a wall, it's remarkably easy to then take their back. Or whatever. Options.
This is how I view all of the standing joint locks I know (including those that are trained as throws). They are ways to train manipulation from the hand/wrist, if that's all you have, until you can do something else.
 

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Again, the idea that you'd apply one lock and then just stop is... silly...
I didn't mean to insinuate that you would apply a lock and then stop. Your transition will probably go a little something like this: wristlock, armbar, takedown. Right?

A lot can happen during those first two steps, especially considering the fact that there's enough distance for the attacker to get some good strikes in.
 

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I didn't mean to insinuate that you would apply a lock and then stop. Your transition will probably go a little something like this: wristlock, armbar, takedown. Right?
Maybe. There are lots of options.
A lot can happen during those first two steps, especially considering the fact that there's enough distance for the attacker to get some good strikes in.
And yet they so rarely do. Why do you suppose that is?
For the record, I've been in my current ER for 21 years. In that time, I've been actually struck with any significant impact maybe 6 times. Out of hundreds of people taken down.
In practice, punching with one arm while you're being tossed around by the other and your feet are being taken out from under you and you're watching the wall or floor approach really isn't all that easy.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Untrained fighters mostly forget that they have two arms and two legs. At least briefly
I find this to be true even with trained fighters. People tend to be singular in attacking and defending until some lays that technique out on them. I've been reminded a time or two when I assumed the person would only be kicking and punching. That was during sparring so things like that probably set in really fast in real fights. Especially if you assume they don't have the skill set to exploit legs or attack multiple areas at the same time.
 

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The idea that an "untrained fighter" isn't going to know what they're doing, and thus isn't a viable threat is a very dubious concept. There's plenty of people who are "untrained" but have better fighting ability and more fighting experience than people who train in Martial Arts dojos twice a week and kick air. This entire idea seems like something out of a kung fu movie, where the guy attempting to punk you on the subway will be outclassed by your pretty kata techniques. In reality, that assailant has a high chance of caving in your face despite never stepping into a martial art school in their entire life.

Prime example;
 

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The idea that an "untrained fighter" isn't going to know what they're doing, and thus isn't a viable threat is a very dubious concept. There's plenty of people who are "untrained" but have better fighting ability and more fighting experience than people who train in Martial Arts dojos twice a week and kick air. This entire idea seems like something out of a kung fu movie, where the guy attempting to punk you on the subway will be outclassed by your pretty kata techniques. In reality, that assailant has a high chance of caving in your face despite never stepping into a martial art school in their entire life.

Prime example;

I've been trying to tell people this for a long time. People seem to forget that Kimbo Slice was an untrained fighter.

People act as though Sheldon Cooper can get a black belt from some dojo/dojang/kwoon at the strip mall two blocks from his house, then go on to beat up bikers and other hoodlums and ruffians. That's a fantasy.
 

Yokozuna514

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The idea that an "untrained fighter" isn't going to know what they're doing, and thus isn't a viable threat is a very dubious concept. There's plenty of people who are "untrained" but have better fighting ability and more fighting experience than people who train in Martial Arts dojos twice a week and kick air. This entire idea seems like something out of a kung fu movie, where the guy attempting to punk you on the subway will be outclassed by your pretty kata techniques. In reality, that assailant has a high chance of caving in your face despite never stepping into a martial art school in their entire life.

Prime example;
Sure, there are sports where fighting is 'part' of the game (like hockey) but it is still only part of the game. Hopefully the training you are receiving is putting you in more fighting situations than than a hockey player or you will be in for a tough night. These guys can be tough 'out of the gate' trying to take your head off but hopefully your training will allow you to survive the flurry to the point they eventually gas out.
I've been trying to tell people this for a long time. People seem to forget that Kimbo Slice was an untrained fighter.

People act as though Sheldon Cooper can get a black belt from some dojo/dojang/kwoon at the strip mall two blocks from his house, then go on to beat up bikers and other hoodlums and ruffians. That's a fantasy.
Kimbo Slice was a big dude and all those muscles were not meant for marathons. Kimbo didn't do so well against seasoned fighters.
 

Urban Trekker

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Kimbo Slice was a big dude and all those muscles were not meant for marathons. Kimbo didn't do so well against seasoned fighters.
And he fought people in his own weight class. If you add up UFC, EliteXC, and Bellator, he's 5 and 2 with an additional win that was later overturned. A .714 puts him right up there with some of the best.
 

Yokozuna514

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And he fought people in his own weight class. If you add up UFC, EliteXC, and Bellator, he's 5 and 2 with an additional win that was later overturned. A .714 puts him right up there with some of the best.
Some of the best ? Ok, so you are on a MA forum and you are suggesting that an untrained fighter is "right up there with some of the best" ? Interesting........
 

Urban Trekker

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Some of the best ? Ok, so you are on a MA forum and you are suggesting that an untrained fighter is "right up there with some of the best" ? Interesting........

I'm not saying it, his record is. Are you openly suggesting that I should be biased based on whether not one is trained? Because that's what it looks like.
 
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JowGaWolf

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The idea that an "untrained fighter" isn't going to know what they're doing, and thus isn't a viable threat is a very dubious concept. There's plenty of people who are "untrained" but have better fighting ability and more fighting experience than people who train in Martial Arts dojos twice a week and kick air. This entire idea seems like something out of a kung fu movie, where the guy attempting to punk you on the subway will be outclassed by your pretty kata techniques. In reality, that assailant has a high chance of caving in your face despite never stepping into a martial art school in their entire life.

Prime example;
I find that the majority of the people who are in the Martial arts dojos aren't trained fighters. They take martial arts for other reasons. Those who actually train to fight are a small percentage and I would put my money on those guys who actually train to fight to out perform those who don't train.

Perfect Example Kimbo slice was untrained MMA. He was a good street fighter, but his MMA debut clearly showed the difference between someone who was formally trained in MMA and someone who wasn't. If my memory is correct, I think Kimbo even referenced that himself. After that debut he started to get proper training.
He was still a tough guy and dangerous, but there's very few untrained people who can match a trained fighter.

Keep in mind I'm referring to people in the same weight range within 10 pounds.
 

Urban Trekker

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I find that the majority of the people who are in the Martial arts dojos aren't trained fighters. They take martial arts for other reasons. Those who actually train to fight are a small percentage and I would put my money on those guys who actually train to fight to out perform those who don't train.

Perfect Example Kimbo slice was untrained MMA. He was a good street fighter, but his MMA debut clearly showed the difference between someone who was formally trained in MMA and someone who wasn't. If my memory is correct, I think Kimbo even referenced that himself. After that debut he started to get proper training.
He was still a tough guy and dangerous, but there's very few untrained people who can match a trained fighter.

Keep in mind I'm referring to people in the same weight range within 10 pounds.

Kimbo Slice was 3 and 0 before taking his first loss. Even if we say that his MMA wins were against journeymen and gatekeepers, that's still an accomplishment. You'd be hard pressed to find a TMA'ist with no real fighting experience who can do the same thing.

Picture this: a fight between TMA with no experience versus experienced with no training.

You know what I equate that to? A guy with a college degree and no experience versus a guy with experience and no college degree applying for the same job. Who's gonna be able to do the job better?
 
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Yokozuna514

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I find that the majority of the people who are in the Martial arts dojos aren't trained fighters. They take martial arts for other reasons. Those who actually train to fight are a small percentage and I would put my money on those guys who actually train to fight to out perform those who don't train.

Perfect Example Kimbo slice was untrained MMA. He was a good street fighter, but his MMA debut clearly showed the difference between someone who was formally trained in MMA and someone who wasn't. If my memory is correct, I think Kimbo even referenced that himself. After that debut he started to get proper training.
He was still a tough guy and dangerous, but there's very few untrained people who can match a trained fighter.

Keep in mind I'm referring to people in the same weight range within 10 pounds.
Yes, he said that. Not only did he acknowledge that there was much for him to learn, he strapped on his boots and started to learn things he would need to be able to compete.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Kimbo Slice was a big dude and all those muscles were not meant for marathons. Kimbo didn't do so well against seasoned fighters.
Exactly. His debut fight was horrible. He didn't dominate the trained fighter like he dominated those in his backyard. Not even close. The other guy didn't do too hot either but he didn't get knocked out and he held his own better than others that Kimbo fought before MMA


 

Hanzou

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Sure, there are sports where fighting is 'part' of the game (like hockey) but it is still only part of the game. Hopefully the training you are receiving is putting you in more fighting situations than than a hockey player or you will be in for a tough night. These guys can be tough 'out of the gate' trying to take your head off but hopefully your training will allow you to survive the flurry to the point they eventually gas out.

Kimbo Slice was a big dude and all those muscles were not meant for marathons. Kimbo didn't do so well against seasoned fighters.

Not even sports, just a-holes who like to bully and attack people. People like that have a mindset where they are aggressive and thus very dangerous, and will seek out people they perceive to be smaller or weaker than themselves. What's worse, these people are used to hitting and getting hit, and are used to adrenaline dumps and various levels of violence that Bob the lawyer who is a black belt and does Aikido twice a week simply isn't used to.
 

Hanzou

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I find that the majority of the people who are in the Martial arts dojos aren't trained fighters. They take martial arts for other reasons. Those who actually train to fight are a small percentage and I would put my money on those guys who actually train to fight to out perform those who don't train.

I agree with this statement. My contention with the language here is the notion that "untrained fighters" are somehow handicapped against someone who is "trained" in the martial arts. That's a joke. Most people are in the martial arts currently BECAUSE of those untrained fighters who are highly capable of hurting or even killing someone else.
 
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