Digging Deeper....

drop bear

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if it's not EVIDENT, ie there us no EVIDENCE for it then it doesn't exist, you might as well claim the fairies are helping you

Yep. That is also correct.

So you would have to find out what the actual benefits are.

Whether the benefits are worth the effort.

And whether Aikido is the fastest way to get them.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Yep. That is also correct.

So you would have to find out what the actual benefits are.

Whether the benefits are worth the effort.

And whether Aikido is the fastest way to get them.
Other than smooth movement, I doubt Aikido is the fastest path to anything physical. It might be the fastest path to smooth movement. For those seeking peace, meditation is probably faster, but maybe not as good for the joints.
 

BrendanF

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The whole point of Aikido is to train the body to move in a different manner....where techniques become secondary and really irrelevant to a degree. Kind of mind blowing realization to be honest...

That's what I've been told - but you wont find it in Aikido (again, just what I've been told). You'd need to go to one of the Daitoryu groups to learn aiki.. and not just any of the half dozen remaining legitimate lines, but specifically those descending from one of Takeda's students who were specifically taught it, like Kodo or Sagawa (ie Kodokai, Roppokai, Muden Juku etc or Sagawa/Kimura etc)
 

oftheherd1

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That's what I've been told - but you wont find it in Aikido (again, just what I've been told). You'd need to go to one of the Daitoryu groups to learn aiki.. and not just any of the half dozen remaining legitimate lines, but specifically those descending from one of Takeda's students who were specifically taught it, like Kodo or Sagawa (ie Kodokai, Roppokai, Muden Juku etc or Sagawa/Kimura etc)

It might seem strange to say an acknowledged accepted art that has aiki in its name doesn't teach aiki, wouldn't you think?

Now if you said some or even many students never achieve a good usage of aiki, or chi, or ki, or gi (choose the spelling you like most) that might be more believable.
 

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It might seem strange to say an acknowledged accepted art that has aiki in its name doesn't teach aiki, wouldn't you think?

Now if you said some or even many students never achieve a good usage of aiki, or chi, or ki, or gi (choose the spelling you like most) that might be more believable.
I suspect what is used in Aikido doesn't match the definition of "aiki" used by those branches of Daito-ryu. I've heard a number of definitions of aiki, including from some in Daito-ryu (not sure if any were in the branches mentioned), and all were different. I've yet to find a reason it would matter beyond a feeling of ownership of the term.

Folks in the Aikikai defininitely do display aiki as they tend to define it. One of Stan Pranin's recommendations to improve Aikido practice matched one of the definitions I saw the senior Kondo use.
 

oftheherd1

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I suspect what is used in Aikido doesn't match the definition of "aiki" used by those branches of Daito-ryu. I've heard a number of definitions of aiki, including from some in Daito-ryu (not sure if any were in the branches mentioned), and all were different. I've yet to find a reason it would matter beyond a feeling of ownership of the term.

Folks in the Aikikai defininitely do display aiki as they tend to define it. One of Stan Pranin's recommendations to improve Aikido practice matched one of the definitions I saw the senior Kondo use.

You would know more than I would for sure. I only know what I learned of gi while studying Hapkido.
 

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Other than smooth movement, I doubt Aikido is the fastest path to anything physical. It might be the fastest path to smooth movement. For those seeking peace, meditation is probably faster, but maybe not as good for the joints.
you can do moving meditations,
 

Kung Fu Wang

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If we look at most of the Aikido clip, the demo partners all commit force into one direction. For example, your opponent walks toward you, you pull him, he then fall forward. You just don't see the following demo such as:

- Your opponent walks toward you,
- you pull him toward you,
- He resists,
- You then borrow his resistance force and throw him backward.

Why? Do Aikido guys only train "yield" and don't train "resist"?

 
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Gerry Seymour

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If we look at most of the Aikido clip, the demo partners all commit force into one direction. For example, your opponent walks toward you, you pull him, he then fall forward. You just don't see the following demo such as:

- Your opponent walks toward you,
- you pull him toward you,
- He resists,
- You then borrow his resistance force and throw him backward.

Why? Do Aikido guys only train "yield" and don't train "resist"?

I've no idea why they don't, but I've only rarely seen them training what to do when they meet resistance. To me, there are two times (and maybe only two) when real aiki is available: when someone overcommits their weight into an attack, and when someone overcommits their weight into resisting. The second is easier to find.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I've no idea why they don't, but I've only rarely seen them training what to do when they meet resistance. To me, there are two times (and maybe only two) when real aiki is available: when someone overcommits their weight into an attack, and when someone overcommits their weight into resisting. The second is easier to find.
IMO, all throwing techniques should be trained in pairs in opposite directions. This way you don't care whether your opponent yields or resists.

Can Aikido training be able to help you on wrestling mat like this? Your thought?

 
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BrendanF

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It might seem strange to say an acknowledged accepted art that has aiki in its name doesn't teach aiki, wouldn't you think?

Now if you said some or even many students never achieve a good usage of aiki, or chi, or ki, or gi (choose the spelling you like most) that might be more believable.

I suppose that was the point of my post. It's certainly not a popular perspective among Aikido folk, but to summarise, the idea was that

- Aiki was originally a DR concept, with specifically martial applications.
- It was a body art - a conditioned state of 'being'
- Ueshiba Morihei had it, but didn't teach it to many, if any

And critically - What we know as Aikido today largely comes from Ueshiba Morihei's son Kisshomaru. It focuses on the physical shape of the waza, and does not touch on the internal training required to acquire/express aiki.

As I said, this is not my theory, just what I've heard. I don't practice any Aiki art.
 

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IMO, all throwing techniques should be trained in pairs in opposite directions. This way you don't care whether your opponent yields or resists.

Can Aikido training be able to help you on wrestling mat like this? Your thought?

For some reason, I can't get that video to load. Here's my thought from what I've seen of wrestling and Aikido. Most Aikido schools only train an upright structure and variations from it. Wrestling (and Judo, to a lesser extent) often gets into a bent structure from the start. That will cause real problems for someone who has only trained that upright structure. Now add that most Aikido training depends upon direct input. Grabbing an arm and staying still (part of hand fighting, for instance) doesn't feed the weight shift they depend upon, so there's another problem.

They have throws both entering and exiting, both front and back (for the person being thrown), but not much for tight clinch distance. There's plenty of related material that would flesh that out - imagine adding some basic Judo to it. This is why I see Aikido as a sort of "finishing school" - a way to put some polish on movement for someone who already has a solid base. Someone with solid Judo skills might find Aikido expands their options, and they would already have the skills for handling both resistance and input (the latter getting expanded more by the Aikido).

This is a bit more what NGA is. We have some influence from Judo, and I bring that more to the front than most instructors (Judo was the first art that seemed to click for me). I do actually train both aiki and "hard" (Judo-type) throws similar to what you recommend. After I teach a technique, I show the common resistance points and what would be available at each. When showing a technique that depends upon resistance, I follow up with the reverse - what is available if that resistance isn't there or is too weak to feed the technique.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Most Aikido schools only train an upright structure and variations from it. Wrestling (and Judo, to a lesser extent) often gets into a bent structure from the start.
This can be an issue. When you

- stand upright, it's very easy for your opponent to get your single leg or double legs.
- bend forward, it's easy for your opponent to press on the back of your neck and drag you down.

There is no perfect structure. But when your opponent attacks, your body should be able to change.
 

hoshin1600

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What we know as Aikido today largely comes from Ueshiba Morihei's son Kisshomaru
this is not true at all. most of the well known instructors trained directly with O Sensei long before Kisshomaru took over.
 
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Spinedoc

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I suppose that was the point of my post. It's certainly not a popular perspective among Aikido folk, but to summarise, the idea was that

- Aiki was originally a DR concept, with specifically martial applications.
- It was a body art - a conditioned state of 'being'
- Ueshiba Morihei had it, but didn't teach it to many, if any

And critically - What we know as Aikido today largely comes from Ueshiba Morihei's son Kisshomaru. It focuses on the physical shape of the waza, and does not touch on the internal training required to acquire/express aiki.

As I said, this is not my theory, just what I've heard. I don't practice any Aiki art.

Actually no. My understanding is that the concept of Aiki, does not appear in Daito Ryu scrolls or history before the 1920s. This was around the same time that Takeda Sokaku and his top student Ueshiba were spending a lot of time with an Omoto priest. Deguchi Onisaburo was spending quite a bit of time with both them. This is around the same time that the concept in term of Aiki began to appear. Whether not this is a religious expression/concept is debatable. But the term itself did not really appear until that time. Aiki is not a specified martial application. It literally means, "joining of the spirit".
 
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Spinedoc

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For some reason, I can't get that video to load. Here's my thought from what I've seen of wrestling and Aikido. Most Aikido schools only train an upright structure and variations from it. Wrestling (and Judo, to a lesser extent) often gets into a bent structure from the start. That will cause real problems for someone who has only trained that upright structure. Now add that most Aikido training depends upon direct input. Grabbing an arm and staying still (part of hand fighting, for instance) doesn't feed the weight shift they depend upon, so there's another problem.

They have throws both entering and exiting, both front and back (for the person being thrown), but not much for tight clinch distance. There's plenty of related material that would flesh that out - imagine adding some basic Judo to it. This is why I see Aikido as a sort of "finishing school" - a way to put some polish on movement for someone who already has a solid base. Someone with solid Judo skills might find Aikido expands their options, and they would already have the skills for handling both resistance and input (the latter getting expanded more by the Aikido).

This is a bit more what NGA is. We have some influence from Judo, and I bring that more to the front than most instructors (Judo was the first art that seemed to click for me). I do actually train both aiki and "hard" (Judo-type) throws similar to what you recommend. After I teach a technique, I show the common resistance points and what would be available at each. When showing a technique that depends upon resistance, I follow up with the reverse - what is available if that resistance isn't there or is too weak to feed the technique.

I think there are a few misconceptions here. It is true, that we do not start in a bent structure. This has a lot to do with the concept of Zanshin. I would say, that for on armed, 1 on 1, combat, there are number of Arts that are better than aikido. However, we make 2 assumptions that most arts do not make. 1. every attacker has a weapon. EVERYONE has a weapon. Could be a bottle, could be a pool cue, could be a stick, could be a knife, could be a glass, there is always a weapon involved. 2. every attack or has friends. The fight will never be fair, and will never be 1 on 1. We assume always, that there will be another person joining the fight.

In those situations, when you are fighting against weapons or multiple attackers, Aikido is likely a better choice than many other arts.

Also, we could create the weight shift if we need. At lower levels, we train in a static, non dynamic manner. People have to feel and explore the movement of the technique. For example, I was working with a junior student the other night on shomenuchi ikkyo. He was struggling, as he kept trying to push my arm in a linear manner. I resisted, and demonstrated that he was not doing the technique properly. I showed him how to employ a circular motion that worked around the resistance. We always discuss where the resistance is, and how to work around it. At higher levels, the techniques by necessity have to become dynamic. Concept of sen sen no sen. You should already be moving before your opponent even touches you. This way, resistance can never be established. It takes a long time however to get to that level.

As far as creating weight shift, this is where atemi becomes so valuable. O'Sensei once said that 90% of his Aikido was atemi. What he meant by that, was reacting to an attack before it lands, and using strikes to off-balance your opponent before throwing. Unfortunately, most aikido dojos do not practice this. That does not however mean that it is not there.
 

Gerry Seymour

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this is not true at all. most of the well known instructors trained directly with O Sensei long before Kisshomaru took over.
And it was my impression that for some time prior to him taking over, Tohei was doing much of the teaching at their hombu.
 

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