Aikido - You know it's real when you see smiles like this.

Dirty Dog

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I also don't like to assume that I'm the good guy, everybody else are all bad guys and try to get me. I like to assume that I can be a bad guy if I want to. I just don't think the world is suitable for any good guy to live in.
Wrestling with philosophical questions when you should be wrestling with your opponent is probably not a good idea.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Not always. There is no always. Every method of counter-gripping has something the opponent could do to.

This is one way to control from that grip. It's not the only way, but - in the right circumstances - that counter-grip works.
Of course one can rotate his arm the other way to break the grip, but that will require him to fight against 4 fingers instead of to fight against just 1 finger.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The two main ways to set up a grab, for me, are:
1. To land a good strike first. This can be to the target arm, or anywhere that can hurt, thus breaking his mental balance.
2. To break his physical balance which in turn breaks his mental balance.
You can always use your hook punch to set up a wrist grip.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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to be honest I don't make it a Good Guy or Bad Guy thing.
You just cannot be a good guy all the time. When your opponent attacks you the

- 1st time, you will jump back as a good guy.
- 2nd time, you will still jump back as a good guy.
- 3rd time, you will still jump back as a good guy.
- 4th time, you will attack back as a bad guy.

You will then let your opponent to know that it was a mistake that his mother ever brought him into this world. :)
 
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JowGaWolf

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You just cannot be a good guy all the time. When your opponent attacks you the

- 1st time, you will jump back as a good guy.
- 2nd time, you will still jump back as a good guy.
- 3rd time, you will still jump back as a good guy.
- 4th time, you will attack back as a bad guy.

You will then let your opponent to know that it was a mistake that his mother ever brought him into this world. :)
- 1st time, I'll jump back because I don't want to get hit..
- 2nd time, I'll still jump back because I don't want to get hit. But now I'm sizing him up.
- 3rd time, I'll still jump because I don't want to get hit. But now I'm have an offense option and a defense option
- 4th time, I'll attack attack, defend or escape, because I don't want to get the bad end of the fight.
 
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JowGaWolf

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You guys are a lot nicer than me, letting someone attack you 3 times before you attack
ha ha ha.. well normally I give them 20 times but since Wang only gave 4. I had to stick with that ;)
 

wab25

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I don't like the way that he grabs on his opponent's wrist with his tiger mouth facing toward his opponent (at 1.29).

In MA, you have to think at least 1 step ahead. When you grab on your opponent's wrist like that, your opponent will rotate his arm against your thumb. This will put his arm inside and on top of your arm. That will be to your dis-advantage.
I believe this is because we have lost the original context of the attack... which leads to the attack being wrong, and thus the escape being kind of silly.

As I have been taught, the Japanese swords man wears his sword on his left hip. It is long enough that you can not draw it with your left hand, you must reach across with your right hand in order to clear the sword from the sheath. (sorry about butchering the Japanese names...) When you attack a swords man, especially when you are unarmed, the last thing you want is for his sword to come out.

The attack of grabbing the wrist, is not to hold the wrist and wait patiently to see what the other guy will do. You grab the wrist as if you were grabbing the handle of the sword. The radius should be on top of the ulna, and the radius is in the deepest part of your grip (or tiger mouth). This should give you the ability to be in top, and to control the rotation, as you would control the rotation of the blade of your sword. You use this grip, with their wrist on your centerline to break their structure, usually by extending it behind them and down, sitting them down on the ground, if possible. Always, you keep on top of the radius bone, to prevent that hand from getting across his body to his sword. This means you will put your shoulder into his centerline, so that his hand has to go through your grip, and then through your body, to get to his sword. The idea is to do this at speed, grab the wrist, prevent the sword draw, break the balance and put him on the ground.

The escape techniques, need to be able to deal with that incoming force, to redirect it, and clear the way to get to your sword, while maintaining your feet. You also need to be able to deal with a strong grip. People who fought with swords and other such weapons, develop really strong grips... and they are very good at controlling a length of a stick, that has an oval cross section. (I was training with a kendo player, who had won many kendo championships and tournaments... he was able to grip my wrist in such a fashion, and then point the tip of his sword.... otherwise known as my forearm... at the ground behind me and thrust, landing me on my back side...)

When you look at these escapes... they come in groups. Outside grip, inside grip and two hand grip. The story goes, when you attacked a swords man, the first guy grabs the wrist to prevent the sword from coming out and to try to get him to the ground, while the rest of your guys jump him. You may grab him with one hand, because you have a weapon of your own in the other... you may use both hands, because your guys are right behind you....

These days, we just grab a wrist and hold it there nicely, with no clue what the actual attack is. The grip becomes weaker, the positioning is wrong and wow, there are a lot of things you can do to counter this kind of non-attack...

We do some drills where the one being attacked has a sword in his belt... the attacker has to prevent him from drawing the sword. Then we go modern... and put a knife in the belt or in the gi. Then we put a concealed carry gun on him (obviously a training gun)... always the attacker needs to prevent you from getting your weapon, by controlling the wrist, while trying to take you down. These seem to put a little more life into the grab my wrist so I can escape drills.
 

drop bear

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I believe this is because we have lost the original context of the attack... which leads to the attack being wrong, and thus the escape being kind of silly.

As I have been taught, the Japanese swords man wears his sword on his left hip. It is long enough that you can not draw it with your left hand, you must reach across with your right hand in order to clear the sword from the sheath. (sorry about butchering the Japanese names...) When you attack a swords man, especially when you are unarmed, the last thing you want is for his sword to come out.

The attack of grabbing the wrist, is not to hold the wrist and wait patiently to see what the other guy will do. You grab the wrist as if you were grabbing the handle of the sword. The radius should be on top of the ulna, and the radius is in the deepest part of your grip (or tiger mouth). This should give you the ability to be in top, and to control the rotation, as you would control the rotation of the blade of your sword. You use this grip, with their wrist on your centerline to break their structure, usually by extending it behind them and down, sitting them down on the ground, if possible. Always, you keep on top of the radius bone, to prevent that hand from getting across his body to his sword. This means you will put your shoulder into his centerline, so that his hand has to go through your grip, and then through your body, to get to his sword. The idea is to do this at speed, grab the wrist, prevent the sword draw, break the balance and put him on the ground.

The escape techniques, need to be able to deal with that incoming force, to redirect it, and clear the way to get to your sword, while maintaining your feet. You also need to be able to deal with a strong grip. People who fought with swords and other such weapons, develop really strong grips... and they are very good at controlling a length of a stick, that has an oval cross section. (I was training with a kendo player, who had won many kendo championships and tournaments... he was able to grip my wrist in such a fashion, and then point the tip of his sword.... otherwise known as my forearm... at the ground behind me and thrust, landing me on my back side...)

When you look at these escapes... they come in groups. Outside grip, inside grip and two hand grip. The story goes, when you attacked a swords man, the first guy grabs the wrist to prevent the sword from coming out and to try to get him to the ground, while the rest of your guys jump him. You may grab him with one hand, because you have a weapon of your own in the other... you may use both hands, because your guys are right behind you....

These days, we just grab a wrist and hold it there nicely, with no clue what the actual attack is. The grip becomes weaker, the positioning is wrong and wow, there are a lot of things you can do to counter this kind of non-attack...

We do some drills where the one being attacked has a sword in his belt... the attacker has to prevent him from drawing the sword. Then we go modern... and put a knife in the belt or in the gi. Then we put a concealed carry gun on him (obviously a training gun)... always the attacker needs to prevent you from getting your weapon, by controlling the wrist, while trying to take you down. These seem to put a little more life into the grab my wrist so I can escape drills.

Wrestling has such a better toolset for that.

 

Gerry Seymour

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I believe this is because we have lost the original context of the attack... which leads to the attack being wrong, and thus the escape being kind of silly.

As I have been taught, the Japanese swords man wears his sword on his left hip. It is long enough that you can not draw it with your left hand, you must reach across with your right hand in order to clear the sword from the sheath. (sorry about butchering the Japanese names...) When you attack a swords man, especially when you are unarmed, the last thing you want is for his sword to come out.

The attack of grabbing the wrist, is not to hold the wrist and wait patiently to see what the other guy will do. You grab the wrist as if you were grabbing the handle of the sword. The radius should be on top of the ulna, and the radius is in the deepest part of your grip (or tiger mouth). This should give you the ability to be in top, and to control the rotation, as you would control the rotation of the blade of your sword. You use this grip, with their wrist on your centerline to break their structure, usually by extending it behind them and down, sitting them down on the ground, if possible. Always, you keep on top of the radius bone, to prevent that hand from getting across his body to his sword. This means you will put your shoulder into his centerline, so that his hand has to go through your grip, and then through your body, to get to his sword. The idea is to do this at speed, grab the wrist, prevent the sword draw, break the balance and put him on the ground.

The escape techniques, need to be able to deal with that incoming force, to redirect it, and clear the way to get to your sword, while maintaining your feet. You also need to be able to deal with a strong grip. People who fought with swords and other such weapons, develop really strong grips... and they are very good at controlling a length of a stick, that has an oval cross section. (I was training with a kendo player, who had won many kendo championships and tournaments... he was able to grip my wrist in such a fashion, and then point the tip of his sword.... otherwise known as my forearm... at the ground behind me and thrust, landing me on my back side...)

When you look at these escapes... they come in groups. Outside grip, inside grip and two hand grip. The story goes, when you attacked a swords man, the first guy grabs the wrist to prevent the sword from coming out and to try to get him to the ground, while the rest of your guys jump him. You may grab him with one hand, because you have a weapon of your own in the other... you may use both hands, because your guys are right behind you....

These days, we just grab a wrist and hold it there nicely, with no clue what the actual attack is. The grip becomes weaker, the positioning is wrong and wow, there are a lot of things you can do to counter this kind of non-attack...

We do some drills where the one being attacked has a sword in his belt... the attacker has to prevent him from drawing the sword. Then we go modern... and put a knife in the belt or in the gi. Then we put a concealed carry gun on him (obviously a training gun)... always the attacker needs to prevent you from getting your weapon, by controlling the wrist, while trying to take you down. These seem to put a little more life into the grab my wrist so I can escape drills.
I think the biggest disservice done to Aikido is in practicing only the original forms, without exploring how the principles apply to things more likely to happen. A lot of what we see in the forms makes a lot more sense when you understand the adjustments needed for varying circumstances. And, of course, when you understand why the heck the forms start the way they do.
 
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JowGaWolf

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I think the biggest disservice done to Aikido is in practicing only the original forms, without exploring how the principles apply to things more likely to happen. A lot of what we see in the forms makes a lot more sense when you understand the adjustments needed for varying circumstances. And, of course, when you understand why the heck the forms start the way they do.
The only way to get to this point is through sparring, but the person has to be willing to make learning mistakes.
 

Gerry Seymour

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The only way to get to this point is through sparring, but the person has to be willing to make learning mistakes.
I agree sparring is a useful (probably necessary) element for that. There's also an intermediate step of just exploring variations in drills. I'm often surprised when folks can't answer questions about a specific technique (in traditional styles where the starting drill is essentially a form) like, "What would be different if his hand was this way?"
 
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JowGaWolf

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I'm often surprised when folks can't answer questions about a specific technique (in traditional styles where the starting drill is essentially a form) like, "What would be different if his hand was this way?"
My son gets these types of questions from me all the time. I trying to get him to think beyond the "cookie cutter" response so that he can make adjustments when needed. I've seen many martial arts practitioners minds go blank simply by changing my stance. They don't see a path to the technique because it fall out of the "cookie cutter." My son usually do a static drill to understand the concept of the technique and then a dynamic drill where I move around him and he has to figure out how to set up what he knows. We'll see how that works for him over the next 2 months or so.
 

Gerry Seymour

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My son gets these types of questions from me all the time. I trying to get him to think beyond the "cookie cutter" response so that he can make adjustments when needed. I've seen many martial arts practitioners minds go blank simply by changing my stance. They don't see a path to the technique because it fall out of the "cookie cutter." My son usually do a static drill to understand the concept of the technique and then a dynamic drill where I move around him and he has to figure out how to set up what he knows. We'll see how that works for him over the next 2 months or so.
It's baffling to me with an art (like my primary) that has a lot of grappling. If you don't know these answers, you don't actually know how to counter your own techniques. Which, of course, is easily remedied with even mild resistive training.
 

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You just cannot be a good guy all the time. When your opponent attacks you the

- 1st time, you will jump back as a good guy.
- 2nd time, you will still jump back as a good guy.
- 3rd time, you will still jump back as a good guy.
- 4th time, you will attack back as a bad guy.

You will then let your opponent to know that it was a mistake that his mother ever brought him into this world. :)
Do you live in another universe?
Why not just let him hit you 3 times..or gut you like a fish.
GEEZE
 

Kung Fu Wang

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You guys are a lot nicer than me, letting someone attack you 3 times before you attack
If you can protect yourself from your opponent's punches/kicks, why do you need to attack back for? It's a great opportunity to test your defense skill.

Emotion is not a good reason to start a fight.
 
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wab25

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Wrestling has such a better toolset for that.

With the exception that, he is letting the hand go. In getting to the outside of the hand, and pushing it across his body, you push his hand closer to the sword on the left hip. When you grab the right hand, pass it across and let it go, that right hand is now free to get his sword, knife, gun, tactical pen, ... that he may be carrying. Now you are facing a weapon. The attacks I was talking about, were designed to prevent the weapon coming into play at all cost. If you have no sword, your best chance at defeating a guy with a sword, is to not let his sword come into play.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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If you can protect yourself from your opponent's punches/kicks, why do you need to attack back for? It's a great opportunity to test your defense skill.

Emotion is not a good reason to start a fight.
Because if I 'fail' the test it might mean that I get hospitalized. Not really something I have a desire to test/risk for no reason. And emotion is not a good reason to start a fight, but if the other guy started it already it's not emotion that's making me respond.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Because if I 'fail' the test it might mean that I get hospitalized. Not really something I have a desire to test/risk for no reason. And emotion is not a good reason to start a fight, but if the other guy started it already it's not emotion that's making me respond.
But if you concentrate 100% on defense, your defense should be stronger than if you also try to attack.

Old MA saying said, "箸閫蝥 If you fight, you need to draw blood." The question is "Do you really heat your opponent that much to draw blood out of his body?"
 
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