Against the current norm.

[IcemanSK]

I was listening to Dennis Leary on the radio today. He was talking about how his growing up was different than the kids today. He's not the only one who says this, BTW. His thought was that today kids gets a "participation trophy" for just for "showing up." to soccer, t-ball or whatever. There's really no incentive for children to try hard because the "playing field" is level for everyone. Children's self-esteem will be damaged if they are left out.

Looking at the point of view of MA, aren't we supposed to go against this thinking by both setting the bar high (a quality program) & also give them the tools to succeed. Rather than saying "everyone can be a BB," we can work with student's individual needs to help bring out their best.

As much fun as having a natural athlete in class is: I'd rather have a kid who trips over his feet but gives 100% every class. That kind of effort in the real world is rewarded. Not too mention that 100% effort usually means one learns the techniques because they are trying.

This is not a thread pointing out that there are too many McDojo's, or too many 5 year old BB's. My point simply is that MA classes should be a place where one can build their self-esteem through accomplishing things that are difficult.

I combat the current thinking of a lot of parents by explaining my expectations often & often saying no. As in "No, your child is not ready to test, yet."

How do you deal with this attitude among parents &/or kids?

 

[Deaf Smith]

Iceman,

I was once in a tournament and everyone got a little trophy for being in it. I was appauled. But the other guys said it make all the kids happy.

I would have thought being a good sport when one loses would have been enough.

Guess not these days.

Deaf

 

[morph4me]

Giving everyone a trophy for participating or giving people belts because they've shown up for class, even though they didn't earn it, doestn't raise self esteem, it encourages a sense of entitlement. It may make people happy, but it devalues the award for the people who actually earn it. Awards should mean something other than "I showed up". What would be the point of the olympics if everyone got a medal for being there?

Iceman is right, self-esteem is built through accomplishing things that are difficult, to do anything less is doing a disservice to the people who are actually accomplishing a goal through hard work.

 

[tshadowchaser]

For what people pay to get into tournaments today I see no reason not to give a ribbon with a medal on it to the kids that participate. Kind of a small but nice way of saying thanks for helping out/showing up.
However I do not agree with promoting those that are not ready even if they have attended “X” number of classes. I do not think trophies should be given at tournament to any but the top 4 ( I hate seeing a kid go for 3 place and loss and not get a trophy).
Earning a promotion or trophy or anything else in life should be worked for

 

[KempoGuy06]

good topic. thats how it is at our school for the kids. they test only when the instructor thinks they are ready. Knowing all the material for the next rank does not mean you are ready for that rank, this is more true for a BB. The attitude that my instructor has beaten into our heads is that its not about the color its about knowledge

B

 

[BrandonLucas]

I was listening to Dennis Leary on the radio today. He was talking about how his growing up was different than the kids today. He's not the only one who says this, BTW. His thought was that today kids gets a "participation trophy" for just for "showing up." to soccer, t-ball or whatever. There's really no incentive for children to try hard because the "playing field" is level for everyone. Children's self-esteem will be damaged if they are left out.

Looking at the point of view of MA, aren't we supposed to go against this thinking by both setting the bar high (a quality program) & also give them the tools to succeed. Rather than saying "everyone can be a BB," we can work with student's individual needs to help bring out their best.

As much fun as having a natural athlete in class is: I'd rather have a kid who trips over his feet but gives 100% every class. That kind of effort in the real world is rewarded. Not too mention that 100% effort usually means one learns the techniques because they are trying.

This is not a thread pointing out that there are too many McDojo's, or too many 5 year old BB's. My point simply is that MA classes should be a place where one can build their self-esteem through accomplishing things that are difficult.

I combat the current thinking of a lot of parents by explaining my expectations often & often saying no. As in "No, your child is not ready to test, yet."

How do you deal with this attitude among parents &/or kids?

Firstly, I've been to several tournements where you get a participation trophy or ribbon just for showing up. I have 2 or 3 of those...somewhere...but I promise that they're not on the same shelf as the trophies that I have where I earned the place in forms, sparring and breaking.

It does devalue the reward. If I've been beaten in sparring by all the competitors there, don't reward me for losing. Sure, I tried my best...but if I want a reminder that I competed, I'll buy a t-shirt if they're selling them or something.

I'm not that huge a fan of the modern tournement scene. I think they get over-commercialized, the rules get cornier and cornier, the judges seem to always end up playing favorites to someone, and the parents get more and more overbearing. It seems like everyone wants some kind of recognition for their kid, regardless of whether they won or not. This is just my opinion here, but, a big part of the true tournement is learning how to deal with losing. If you lose, you lose. You accept that someone has bested you in competition. There shouldn't be a reward for that. The reward should be the incentive for you to come back next time and do better.

I've been telling my wife that I would win her a 6 foot trophy for sparring in the black belt division since we were dating back in '99, and I haven't won it for her....yet. But I will. It just wouldn't mean the same thing if I were to go to a trophy store and purchase the trophy that I've been trying to win all these years and bring it home.

Now, secondly, on telling parents that their child is not ready to test...

It's tricky. But if the child isn't ready to test, then they're simply not ready to test. If you lose the child from class, it sucks, but I just can't logically see passing a student through the ranks before they're ready just to keep them coming to class. There are other ways to keep the kids interested than to give them false rank...invite them to have some 1 on 1 sessions for free with you to help them get to the point where they can test.

I know I was told by my instructor several times that I was not ready to test for several belts. When I was younger, sure, my feelings were hurt...but it made me want the rank that much more. I think if the kids are going to be truly dedicated to the art and what you're teaching, they may get discouraged, but they won't totally want to quit. And if the parents see that kind of drive in their child or children, why would they want to pull them out of something constructive like that?

 

[seasoned]

I was listening to Dennis Leary on the radio today. He was talking about how his growing up was different than the kids today. He's not the only one who says this, BTW. His thought was that today kids gets a "participation trophy" for just for "showing up." to soccer, t-ball or whatever. There's really no incentive for children to try hard because the "playing field" is level for everyone. Children's self-esteem will be damaged if they are left out.

Looking at the point of view of MA, aren't we supposed to go against this thinking by both setting the bar high (a quality program) & also give them the tools to succeed. Rather than saying "everyone can be a BB," we can work with student's individual needs to help bring out their best.

As much fun as having a natural athlete in class is: I'd rather have a kid who trips over his feet but gives 100% every class. That kind of effort in the real world is rewarded. Not too mention that 100% effort usually means one learns the techniques because they are trying.

This is not a thread pointing out that there are too many McDojo's, or too many 5 year old BB's. My point simply is that MA classes should be a place where one can build their self-esteem through accomplishing things that are difficult.

I combat the current thinking of a lot of parents by explaining my expectations often & often saying no. As in "No, your child is not ready to test, yet."

How do you deal with this attitude among parents &/or kids?

Building esteem in a kid, or character in an adult, means as a Sensei, you are going to instill something into that person that goes beyond just feeling good. A sense of accomplishment is something felt within, and not something material. A good Sensei can help you to feel good about your training but a great Sensei can make you feel good about yourself. No giveaways please.

 

[IcemanSK]

I've had an interesting thing happen in my school in the last week. I have a belt test coming up this Saturday. Each class lately is devoted to working on testing material, specifically. I've let half my clas know that they are not ready to test this time around. I had a parent call me & say, "since my child isn't testing, does he need to class?" Wow! Jimmy needs to work on his forms all the time: not just before a test! I told her he needs to be there next class. I'd have never thought of me or my parents saying that to my instructor!

I've heard this term from "60 Minutes" last year...helicopter parents. These are the folks who hover over every aspect of their kid's lives. They interviewed major employers (1st job out of college-type jobs) who said, "I see many parents who show up to the kid's interview." And college professors who say, "parent's call me or show up asking why Johnny didn't get a better grade."

Some days the sound of helicopters over my school is deafening.

 

[jks9199]

Kids know the difference between an award for participation and an award for winning. And the know when they've won... or lost. Even if parents don't keep score.

But I don't have a problem with a token for participation, in and of itself. Just don't confuse the token with an award for winning or with actual completion of the goal or passing the tests, either.

 

[MattJ]

Iceman,

I was once in a tournament and everyone got a little trophy for being in it. I was appauled. But the other guys said it make all the kids happy.

I would have thought being a good sport when one loses would have been enough.

Guess not these days.

Deaf

Not disagreeing with that sentiment. But it should be noted that some of the "participation" trophies and such have come about from the *adults*, who feel that they/the kids should get something after forking over $75-100+ to enter some of these tourneys. FWIW.

 

[morph4me]

Not disagreeing with that sentiment. But it should be noted that some of the "participation" trophies and such have come about from the *adults*, who feel that they/the kids should get something after forking over $75-100+ to enter some of these tourneys. FWIW.

Probably true, and they would be able to reduce the costs of entering the tournaments if they didn't spend money to buy trophies to give to people for paticipating and maybe sold T shirts to those who are interested in showing they were there.

 

[IcemanSK]

Probably true, and they would be able to reduce the costs of entering the tournaments if they didn't spend money to buy trophies to give to people for paticipating and maybe sold T shirts to those who are interested in showing they were there.

I think there is truth in both of these ideas.

 

[Tez3]

I read this after putting my rant thread up lol! I have to say this thread made me feel better about it all!!
All your comments mean I'm on the right road! thanks guys!

 

[shihansmurf]

Probably true, and they would be able to reduce the costs of entering the tournaments if they didn't spend money to buy trophies to give to people for paticipating and maybe sold T shirts to those who are interested in showing they were there.

I participated in a tournament once where 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place in each division was awarded a sword.

Now, they were aluminum and rather gaudy but still rather expensive, at least compared to trophies or medals. Everybody else got ribbons.

While the swords were cool, the effect was cheapened, as such, by the fact that everyone left with something. In sport karate there are so many divisions that you really only have to show up at a large tourney and not die to leave with a trophy in the first place that I am forced to wonder at the need to hand out participant medals.

Participant Medals, Also-Ran Trophies, and Competititor Ribbons are endemic of our societies' obsession with mediocrity. I am of the opinion that only the athletes that place in the top three should leave with whatever shiney bauble is being handed out at that tourney. If Little Johnny really wants one he can win or try harder next time.

Mark

 

[Josh Oakley]

While I agree with the comments made on belt testing, I actually have to disagree to a point when it comes to kids and tournaments. The tournaments we run, the kids get a little participation medal, where as the winners get trophies. The main reason I disagree is because I had more than a few of my kid students overcome major anxiety issues and fears to even compete, and for these kids it was a big accomplishment. Now the kids who only get a participation medal know they did not win, but the little medal is a great reminder to them of a challenge they stepped up to; a fear they've faced and overcome.

The students who get these medals are not only more congratulatory to the students who earned a trophy, but in fact try harder after the tournament to really learn the material. Much harder than the students who did not go.

I'm a utilitarian. My judgments of such things are predicated upon the question of how well they accomplished my stated goals. When it comes to my students, it's always a question of whether or not an event makes my students better fighter fighters, better martial artists, better students, and better people. I resisted tournaments for years because I didn't think it actually helped training, till my boss ordered me to just try it once, and see what happened.

Sure enough, every student who went, came back better. And the kids who lost are proud of their little medals, and not because they think they actually won something, but because for them it represents a challenge they overcame.

I think these trophies/medals of participation can indeed be good things, if and only if the right meaning is placed behind them.

 

[Gordon Nore]

I was listening to Dennis Leary on the radio today. He was talking about how his growing up was different than the kids today. He's not the only one who says this, BTW. His thought was that today kids gets a "participation trophy" for just for "showing up." to soccer, t-ball or whatever. There's really no incentive for children to try hard because the "playing field" is level for everyone. Children's self-esteem will be damaged if they are left out.

I love Dennis Leary, I really do, but the participation ribbon rant is pretty stale. I've heard more people argue that kids are going to Hell in a handbasket because someone gave them a ribbon or a trophy.

Is it overdone? Sure, but it's a matter of degrees. If kids are getting trophies for participation, it's because their parents are paying for them. And that's what drives this. I paid my dues for my kid's soccer, and I want something to show for it. Who's really screwed up here? The kid or the parent.

In the beginning year my kid's little league career, all the players got a little medallion. The players on the first-to-third teams got a trophy. I don't begrudge the kids a medallion -- they stood in the sun in the outfield and it was a keepsake for their experience. As an award, it was substantial enough to hang onto and take care of but not so elaborate as to be confused with having excelled above the rest.

As they got older, this level of recognition phased out.

What would give the participation award merit would be withholding it when it is not merited. Kid doesn't show up. Kid always complains. Kid is unsportsmanlike. Withhold the ribbon or whatever and communicate clearly to both parent and child that participation has actual value.

Then watch the little league association get sued.

I firmly believe these things exist not so much as a self-esteem booster for kids but as a kind of pacifier for parents who won''t accept that their kid can't be good at everything and who don't have the stones to help a child deal with disappointment.

 

[hkfuie]

Interesting thread. I see everybody's point. Love the term "helicopter parent." Perfect description.

As far as rank goes, I think it's important all the time to stress that I care about skill, not rank. Especially that it's not about just knowing the material. There is more to it. I had a kid ask me yesterday if his front stance was holding him back from his yellow tip. I am such a smartypants, I just had to say, "No, it's holding you back from excellence." Luckily a whole class-full of students got to hear it. His point seemed to be that he wasn't really interested in making the effort to correct his technique if he wasn't going to be "paid" for it with rank. And he's really a good kid. I believe he got my point clearly. It's good for kids to know there's another point of view.

I see the point about competitor ribbons for kids. I have seen lots of kids and adults overcome fears to compete. But I think it's part of problem of people thinking they need to bring home something to show for their entry fee. I think that makes it easier for people to not realize that it is the experience of being there and the honor of being involved. If they think it's about a stupid ribbon, then they have missed all the rewards that I think are way more important than medals. It is so easy to miss these rewards and getting the ribbon makes it easier to miss them, I believe.

Anyway, it is so good to hear a bunch of people talk about this. I am enjoying this topic.

 

[IcemanSK]

I think there is a difference between something that says, "you participated in this event" & the giving the same award as those who placed in the event. I don't think anyone disagrees on this point.

My instructor is quite fond of giving "participation certificates" for seminars, conferences & tournaments. They are to be put in each student's (BB & master also) goal portfolio book. It's actually a great way to have milestones of one's training.

As Tez3 has said in her thread, belt testing is a very diferent matter. The testing is not on the timetable of the student or parent. They shouldn't be demanded.

 

[MJS]

I was listening to Dennis Leary on the radio today. He was talking about how his growing up was different than the kids today. He's not the only one who says this, BTW. His thought was that today kids gets a "participation trophy" for just for "showing up." to soccer, t-ball or whatever. There's really no incentive for children to try hard because the "playing field" is level for everyone. Children's self-esteem will be damaged if they are left out.

Yup, sad but true. God forbid someone is left out, made to feel bad, told that they can't advance because in a nutshell, their material isn't up to par. Nope, in todays world, people are afraid to do that, out of fear that their students will leave and go somewhere else, where its easier to get what they want, with half the work.

Looking at the point of view of MA, aren't we supposed to go against this thinking by both setting the bar high (a quality program) & also give them the tools to succeed. Rather than saying "everyone can be a BB," we can work with student's individual needs to help bring out their best.

Yes, we should be setting the bar higher, but can't for the reasons listed above.

As much fun as having a natural athlete in class is: I'd rather have a kid who trips over his feet but gives 100% every class. That kind of effort in the real world is rewarded. Not too mention that 100% effort usually means one learns the techniques because they are trying.

I agree. IMO, its the quality not the quantity that matters.

This is not a thread pointing out that there are too many McDojo's, or too many 5 year old BB's. My point simply is that MA classes should be a place where one can build their self-esteem through accomplishing things that are difficult.

Agreed.

I combat the current thinking of a lot of parents by explaining my expectations often & often saying no. As in "No, your child is not ready to test, yet."

What is the typical reply that you get from them?

How do you deal with this attitude among parents &/or kids?

I would usually do what you said....say no. Of course, this was met with a ton of resistance. I did my best to explain to both the parent(s) and the child, what the weak areas were, and why I could not promote them. If they had an issue with this, I'd refer them to the head inst. of the school. Of course, I'd make sure that my side of the story was told as well.

Students will always get nervous when under pressure. It happens to everyone, myself included. However, there is a huge difference between not knowing the material at all and having that deer in the headlights look, and a brief moment of fogetfulness, but is able to perform if given a small hint. IMO, the student is a reflection of the teacher. If the student looks poor, how is that going to look for the teacher?

 

[Gordon Nore]

I think there is a difference between something that says, "you participated in this event" & the giving the same award as those who placed in the event. I don't think anyone disagrees on this point.

Agreed. I think I overstated my point. I was having my own Dennis Leary moment. Apologies.

My instructor is quite fond of giving "participation certificates" for seminars, conferences & tournaments. They are to be put in each student's (BB & master also) goal portfolio book. It's actually a great way to have milestones of one's training.

I think that's a wonderful touch. It's a meaningful keepsake.

As Tez3 has said in her thread, belt testing is a very diferent matter. The testing is not on the timetable of the student or parent. They shouldn't be demanded.

I visited a grading at a martial arts school that one of my grade five students belonged to. Two dozen kids grading anywhere from yellow to brown, and the level of technique was virtually indistinguishable. When my student got his blue belt, the teacher said, "Now you've got to get ready for your brown belt in February." This was in October.

Essentially, each coloured belt was a showing up recognition. If you took the belts off these kids, you'd have no way of knowing that many of them were more experienced or skilled.