Is it a bad idea to teach kids wrist grab escapes?

[skribs]

As many of you may know, I train Taekwondo and Hapkido. Most of our Hapkido training is wristlocks. However, at my old Taekwondo school, we trained wrist grab escapes. Instead of difficult joint locks to gain control of the other person, we learned simple techniques to break the grip of our opponent/assailant.

We don't do Hapkido techniques for the kids at our school. However, every once in a while if we have some spare time, I'll do the wrist escapes. In the all-levels class, quite often I run out of stuff to do with the white belts really quick, since there's not much to the white belt curriculum compared to higher belts. So I'll do wrist escapes.

One time, a parent said, "Great...now they know how to get away from me." I think it was tongue in cheek, but I'm starting to question that.

At the end of class, I'll usually guard the door and make sure none of the kids leave without their parents. I always ask the kid "where's your parent?" We have so many new students that it's hard for me to keep track of which kid goes with which parent. I always ask the kid, just as a precaution, to make sure they know the person picking them up.

Yesterday, there's a kid in the 4-5-year-old class, who is notorious for not paying attention. I had him stop to get some hand sanitizer on the way out. Then, I asked "where's your parents?" He didn't answer. He just bolted out the door. I lunged and grabbed his arm (pretty tight, but not tight enough to hurt him) and yanked him back inside. I scolded him for just running off and asked again where his parents are. He pointed to his dad, and left.

Normally I'm pretty lenient with the white belts, especially at that age range. But there's no way I was letting the kid bolt off until I was sure his Dad was out there. I didn't know if he was just going to run into the street! In this case, it was okay, because I caught him, and even if I hadn't, his Dad was there.

But it got me thinking about that time a while back. What if this kid knew the weakest point of my grip, and how to exploit that? I had a pretty strong grip, and he's pretty small. I hadn't taught him to escape a wrist grab yet. If I had, and he did manage to break free, and his Dad wasn't there...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Great...now they know how to get away from me."

Great...now they know how to

- get away from me.
- block my punch.
- block my kick.
- punch me.
- kick me.
- take me down.
- ...

What's the difference there?

 

[skribs]

Great...now they know how to

- get away from me.
- block my punch.
- block my kick.
- punch me.
- kick me.
- take me down.
- ...

What's the difference there?

Because there aren't times when you need to punch a kid for their safety. There are times you need to grab them (i.e. keep them from running out into the street).

 

[jobo]

As many of you may know, I train Taekwondo and Hapkido. Most of our Hapkido training is wristlocks. However, at my old Taekwondo school, we trained wrist grab escapes. Instead of difficult joint locks to gain control of the other person, we learned simple techniques to break the grip of our opponent/assailant.

We don't do Hapkido techniques for the kids at our school. However, every once in a while if we have some spare time, I'll do the wrist escapes. In the all-levels class, quite often I run out of stuff to do with the white belts really quick, since there's not much to the white belt curriculum compared to higher belts. So I'll do wrist escapes.

One time, a parent said, "Great...now they know how to get away from me." I think it was tongue in cheek, but I'm starting to question that.

At the end of class, I'll usually guard the door and make sure none of the kids leave without their parents. I always ask the kid "where's your parent?" We have so many new students that it's hard for me to keep track of which kid goes with which parent. I always ask the kid, just as a precaution, to make sure they know the person picking them up.

Yesterday, there's a kid in the 4-5-year-old class, who is notorious for not paying attention. I had him stop to get some hand sanitizer on the way out. Then, I asked "where's your parents?" He didn't answer. He just bolted out the door. I lunged and grabbed his arm (pretty tight, but not tight enough to hurt him) and yanked him back inside. I scolded him for just running off and asked again where his parents are. He pointed to his dad, and left.

Normally I'm pretty lenient with the white belts, especially at that age range. But there's no way I was letting the kid bolt off until I was sure his Dad was out there. I didn't know if he was just going to run into the street! In this case, it was okay, because I caught him, and even if I hadn't, his Dad was there.

But it got me thinking about that time a while back. What if this kid knew the weakest point of my grip, and how to exploit that? I had a pretty strong grip, and he's pretty small. I hadn't taught him to escape a wrist grab yet. If I had, and he did manage to break free, and his Dad wasn't there...

you either have far to much faith in the technique you teach or a very weak grip

do you really think a 5 year old can break free from an average adult grip,

though i remmber my sister getting cross after i instructed my young neice in how to evade a chasing adult, as now she couldnt catch her

 

[wab25]

If you are training wrist escapes... then you should train wrist escapes. Don't train, when I do the thing... the other guy lets go. The grab should be full strength or close to it... and you should not let the other guy out. He should have to defeat your grip. Beginners should feel it... as it should feel like their wrist is being rubbed raw. Its tempting to go lighter on some people for various reasons... but you really are not doing them any favors. Chances are the person they are trying to escape from does not know when they should let go... or more likely, do not want to let go. In my opinion, 5 year olds are a bit young to learn wrist escapes... because they don't have the strength and leverage to work the escape for real, on an adult.

Note: I am saying that you should grab the wrist with a lot of strength, to make the other guy learn what it really takes to break a grip. I am not saying counter them, change the grip, move your feet and play all those games. (at least until they have the escape down... then that kind of training is a must) During the drill, the attacker should really grab, and keep that grab so the one practicing has to apply the technique that they are learning against resistance.

 

[skribs]

you either have far to much faith in the technique you teach or a very weak grip

do you really think a 5 year old can break free from an average adult grip,

though i remmber my sister getting cross after i instructed my young neice in how to evade a chasing adult, as now she couldnt catch her

If the adult is trying not to hurt the kid? And/or if the adult isn't expecting the kid to try and break out? Yes. If I applied my full grip, I would have badly bruised him.

If you are training wrist escapes... then you should train wrist escapes. Don't train, when I do the thing... the other guy lets go. The grab should be full strength or close to it... and you should not let the other guy out. He should have to defeat your grip. Beginners should feel it... as it should feel like their wrist is being rubbed raw. Its tempting to go lighter on some people for various reasons... but you really are not doing them any favors. Chances are the person they are trying to escape from does not know when they should let go... or more likely, do not want to let go. In my opinion, 5 year olds are a bit young to learn wrist escapes... because they don't have the strength and leverage to work the escape for real, on an adult.

Note: I am saying that you should grab the wrist with a lot of strength, to make the other guy learn what it really takes to break a grip. I am not saying counter them, change the grip, move your feet and play all those games. (at least until they have the escape down... then that kind of training is a must) During the drill, the attacker should really grab, and keep that grab so the one practicing has to apply the technique that they are learning against resistance.

What does this have to do with the question I asked?

 

[wab25]

What does this have to do with the question I asked?

Is the question in the title? "Is it a bad idea to teach kids wrist grab escapes?"

If you are training wrist escapes... then you should train wrist escapes. Don't train, when I do the thing... the other guy lets go. The grab should be full strength or close to it... and you should not let the other guy out. He should have to defeat your grip. Beginners should feel it... as it should feel like their wrist is being rubbed raw. Its tempting to go lighter on some people for various reasons... but you really are not doing them any favors. Chances are the person they are trying to escape from does not know when they should let go... or more likely, do not want to let go. In my opinion, 5 year olds are a bit young to learn wrist escapes... because they don't have the strength and leverage to work the escape for real, on an adult.

I bolded the answer to the question in the title of the thread, so it would not get lost in the reasons why. If you are actually asking a different question, then I missed it... sorry.

 

[skribs]

Is the question in the title? "Is it a bad idea to teach kids wrist grab escapes?"



I bolded the answer to the question in the title of the thread, so it would not get lost in the reasons why. If you are actually asking a different question, then I missed it... sorry.

Did you actually read my post, or just comment based on the title?

A kid who learns wrist escapes could potentially run away when their parents or teachers are trying to hold them. Kids running away from their parents is a bad idea if they're in a crowded place, or out in the woods, or they run out into the street or parking lot.

Is it a good idea to not teach kids escapes until they're old enough to not run into traffic?

 

[jobo]

If the adult is trying not to hurt the kid? And/or if the adult isn't expecting the kid to try and break out? Yes. If I applied my full grip, I would have badly bruised him.



What does this have to do with the question I asked?

you should be able to hold your fingers in a tube and hang of a bar, certainly hold a kid with out squeasing

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've taught teens and youth wrist escapes because I felt that was a situation that they would most likely to experience. After I taught the teens they would taunt me and be a pain in the butt. I didn't mind because I knew what they were after. They wanted to see if they could actually escape using what they learned. They were testing their techniques not only on me but also on their friends.

Was it hard to grab them. Yeah, after I taught them how to escape it became more difficult to grab them by the wrist or arm. One became really good and I could never grab him. He was probably best among all the others I taught. Throwing him out of the building before closing hours was a pain but he was a good kid, he knew when to get on my nerve and when not to.

My personal thought with kids is. That the wrist escape doesn't make the child more likely to run out into the street or run away from parents. All of that is because of how parents raise their kids.

If a child is always running away from the parent, then that's a problem and the parent should deal with that directly and seriously. Set the law. "you don't run away from me." "you don't run across the street" Set those standards and the child will follow.

This type of behavior has nothing to do with what martial arts they learn. To be honest if there is a child like this in your school then the parent already has the assumption that you'll be the one to discipline the child so that they will behave better. The parents don't want to discipline their own child so they try to get other's to do it.

Common word that Martial Arts schools like to use. Discipline. This probably what you get a lot of.

I used get a lot of. "my son gets bullied, I want him to be able to defend himself." The kids that trained at my old school were already well behaved when they came in. No one came to the school for Discipline.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

do you really think a 5 year old can break free from an average adult grip,

If that 5 years old drops his full body weight (50lb?) against your thumb (1 finger), it's possible.

How much strength can you develop on your thumb?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So in my mind it's kind of a double edged sword. Keeping in mind that if someone grabbed full force, like already said, they won't be able to escape. But a simple grab, without expectations that they will escape, they can.

They can escape from you and their parents, BUT you guys have the advantage of knowing you have to actually make the grip secure now, or interlock fingers before you go somewhere, or something similar. Or now different ways to control the kid without needing to physically control them (obviously depending on the kid/situation at hand). They can also escape anyone who may go up to them in the park or find them in the street and try to lead them away somewhere. And those people don't have the knowledge that a simple grab won't be enough.

 

[drop bear]

Teach the parents headlocks.

 

[skribs]

My personal thought with kids is. That the wrist escape doesn't make the child more likely to run out into the street or run away from parents. All of that is because of how parents raise their kids.

If a child is always running away from the parent, then that's a problem and the parent should deal with that directly and seriously. Set the law. "you don't run away from me." "you don't run across the street" Set those standards and the child will follow.

This type of behavior has nothing to do with what martial arts they learn. To be honest if there is a child like this in your school then the parent already has the assumption that you'll be the one to discipline the child so that they will behave better. The parents don't want to discipline their own child so they try to get other's to do it.

Ah, yes. Because kids always follow the rules. And parents can only do so much. We have one pair of kids at my school; fraternal twins. The girl is incredibly respectful, focused, and well-behaved. The brother is always getting into trouble. They're twins. Similar genetics (not exact copies like identical twins, but they are brother/sister). Same parenting. Yet one is well-behaved and the other not.

So in my mind it's kind of a double edged sword. Keeping in mind that if someone grabbed full force, like already said, they won't be able to escape. But a simple grab, without expectations that they will escape, they can.

They can escape from you and their parents, BUT you guys have the advantage of knowing you have to actually make the grip secure now, or interlock fingers before you go somewhere, or something similar. Or now different ways to control the kid without needing to physically control them (obviously depending on the kid/situation at hand). They can also escape anyone who may go up to them in the park or find them in the street and try to lead them away somewhere. And those people don't have the knowledge that a simple grab won't be enough.

That's if the parent's been paying attention to what they learn. And I was only able to get one hand on this kid at first. He was out the door; I had to lunge and reach for him.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That's if the parent's been paying attention to what they learn.

True. But that's on the parent, not on you, unless you're actively hiding that info.

And I was only able to get one hand on this kid at first. He was out the door; I had to lunge and reach for him.

Like I said, it's a double-edged sword. You've got to weigh the pros and cons on this. But there are both.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ah, yes. Because kids always follow the rules. And parents can only do so much. We have one pair of kids at my school; fraternal twins. The girl is incredibly respectful, focused, and well-behaved. The brother is always getting into trouble. They're twins. Similar genetics (not exact copies like identical twins, but they are brother/sister). Same parenting. Yet one is well-behaved and the other not.

I don't understand what you are getting at. Here. What is the name of your school? Does it have a website?

 

[skribs]

True. But that's on the parent, not on you, unless you're actively hiding that info.
Like I said, it's a double-edged sword. You've got to weigh the pros and cons on this. But there are both.

Some parents use the class time to run errands. Some are busy with other kids. Some leave because they're a distraction to their kids if they stay.

Oh, and right now, parents aren't allowed inside because of COVID restrictions.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Some parents use the class time to run errands. Some are busy with other kids. Some leave because they're a distraction to their kids if they stay.

Oh, and right now, parents aren't allowed inside because of COVID restrictions.

Excluding the COVID part, that's all they're choices. Particularly since it's a 2 minute conversation to ask you (or the kid) what they learned today, or have the kid show them after dinner or something similar. Ultimately it's up to them to stay involved with the kid and not treat it like a babysitter.

 

[jobo]

If that 5 years old drops his full body weight (50lb?) against your thumb (1 finger), it's possible.

How much strength can you develop on your thumb?

i cant belive we are having a serious conversation were we are defeated by a 5 year old!

a lot more than 50lbs i would have thought, but even if i couldnt hold the weight, he is now on the floor with my hand around his wrist, he still isnt free and there is no reason why you cant use the other hand as well

 

[wab25]

Did you actually read my post, or just comment based on the title?

A kid who learns wrist escapes could potentially run away when their parents or teachers are trying to hold them. Kids running away from their parents is a bad idea if they're in a crowded place, or out in the woods, or they run out into the street or parking lot.

Is it a good idea to not teach kids escapes until they're old enough to not run into traffic?

Yes I did read your entire post. Hence the explanation. At 4 or 5, they can't actually break the grip of an adult who actually wants to hang on to them. I am a parent. I have kids. When they were that age and wanted to run towards the pool or street or stairway or what ever, I grabbed them by the arm and picked them off their feet, into my other arm to protect them. No way they could break the grip. The bad guy that wants to snatch them up, can do the same and would be even more firm than I was as a parent.... meaning they are less likely to be able to break the grip. Once they get into the 10, 11, 12 age range.... then they are usually large enough to have the leverage and weight to do it.

If you want to teach them wrist escapes go for it. It won't make their parents unable to grab them at 5 years old... because 5 year olds don't have the leverage or weight to break the grip of a parent stopping their kid from running into traffic...