A odd thing said in Olympic commentary

[mango.man]

Those schools that train only for competition I would hope place a focus on good sportsmanship, and I question whether the behavior under discussion (fist pumping and such) falls into that category. I suppose that as long as both participants are on the same page that its alright, but I find it out of place in the martial arts.

I am not sure I can explain it any other way. God knows I have tried to explain it every way possible. I think this is my last stab at it.

The Olympic sport of Taekwondo and the Martial Art of Taekwondo both share a name "Taekwondo" just like a Yugo Automobile and a Ferrari Automobile both share the name "Automobile".

But for both of the above, the common name is about all they have in common. It is pointless to try to compare the 2 I really wish Olympic TKD would just change its name, then maybe this nonsense of trying to compare the 2 would end.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Very often attempting to influence the judge's decision by such overt shows is indeed expressly forbidden.

Out of curiosity, do you judge at WTF events? If so, how much latitude do tournament officials have in rules interpretations? In other words, can the people holding the tournament make a house rule along the lines of 'no self agrandizing displays' or similar wording?

Daniel

 

[Laurentkd]

Out of curiosity, do you judge at WTF events? If so, how much latitude do tournament officials have in rules interpretations? In other words, can the people holding the tournament make a house rule along the lines of 'no self agrandizing displays' or similar wording?

Daniel

Sure... most tournaments I go to call it "modified Olympic rules". In my experience a lot of schools usually use it to take away the point ceiling, or to limit face contact. I haven't see one that prohibits the self-cheering, but I think it is a good idea.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am not sure I can explain it any other way. God knows I have tried to explain it every way possible. I think this is my last stab at it.

The Olympic sport of Taekwondo and the Martial Art of Taekwondo both share a name "Taekwondo" just like a Yugo Automobile and a Ferrari Automobile both share the name "Automobile".

But for both of the above, the common name is about all they have in common. It is pointless to try to compare the 2 I really wish Olympic TKD would just change its name, then maybe this nonsense of trying to compare the 2 would end.

Not sure why you feel that you need to explain the differences to me, as I am well aware of them, and what has any of that to do with sportsmanship?

Daniel

 

[mango.man]

Not sure why you feel that you need to explain the differences to me, as I am well aware of them, and what has any of that to do with sportsmanship?

I feel the need to say it to you and others because you and others post things like:

Those schools that train only for competition I would hope place a focus on good sportsmanship, and I question whether the behavior under discussion (fist pumping and such) falls into that category. I suppose that as long as both participants are on the same page that its alright, but I find it out of place in the martial arts.

The TKD you see in the Olympics has nothing in common with the Martial Art of TKD, other than the name, yet people keep trying to make comparisons between the two. I don't think it is fair to the martial art of TKD to make such a comparision, nor is it fair to the sport of TKD to make such a comparison.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I feel the need to say it to you and others because you and others post things like:



The TKD you see in the Olympics has nothing in common with the Martial Art of TKD, other than the name, yet people keep trying to make comparisons between the two. I don't think it is fair to the martial art of TKD to make such a comparision, nor is it fair to the sport of TKD to make such a comparison.

You're posting on a martial arts board about a sport that you feel isn't a martial art. Deal with it.

And you didn't answer my question: what does any of your explanation have to do with sportsmanship?

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sure... most tournaments I go to call it "modified Olympic rules". In my experience a lot of schools usually use it to take away the point ceiling, or to limit face contact. I haven't see one that prohibits the self-cheering, but I think it is a good idea.

I guess thats what our school does. Our in house tournaments (we have more than one school) do not allow for such behaviour. You bow in, you touch gloves, you compete, you shake hands, and you bow out.

We still consider the Olympic TKD to be a part of the martial art, Taekwondo, so the same standards are expected whether you're competing or step sparring. In fact, the tentets of Taekwondo are expected to be followed whether or not one is in the dojang, and that includes open tournaments, which our students are not discouraged in taking part in.

Daniel

 

[bluekey88]

As a coach for a children's competition team, here's what we tell our players. Kiap loud when you score (to sell the point if you will). DON'T fist pump. If your opponent tries any of that...kick 'em. It's the only way to break them of a bad habit.

Peace,
Erik

 

[YoungMan]

Here's a better idea: the referees need to penalize fighters who do that, which they should be doing anyway. If the fighters know they will be issued warnings and docked points, maybe they'll think twice about doing it.
It boils down to properly trained referees and coaches.

 

[mango.man]

Here's a better idea: the referees need to penalize fighters who do that, which they should be doing anyway. If the fighters know they will be issued warnings and docked points, maybe they'll think twice about doing it.
It boils down to properly trained referees and coaches.

Go back and read post # 57 in this thread. As you will see, such behavior is encouraged in the rules.

How can you penalize a fighter or a coach for following the rules? And if a referee does issue kyongos for it, then you are right in your assessment that they are not properly trained.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Mango is correct; the rules do provide for self cheering.

The biggest problem with this is that the competitors all have belts, most likely through the Kukkiwon. USAT can issue blackbelts, but they do so through the WTF, which does so through the Kukkiwon.

Holders of belts hold grades and rank in Kukkiwon taekwondo, and the Kukkiwon is not an athletic body. As a belt holder, one is expected to observe the tenets of taekwondo. This supercedes any allowance of contrary behaviour by an athletic body.

So long as a belt ranking system is used, and so long as those belts are issued by the Kukkiwon, the holders of those belts are obliged by that tie to follow those tenets. Unfortunately, self cheering and fist pumping are opposed to those tenets:

Courtesy · Integrity · Self-Control · Perseverance · Indomitable Spirit

Specifically, self cheering and fist pumping break the first and third. Self cheering is discoureous (and bad sportsmanship in my book) and also shows lack of self control.

Funny thing, but as I have said before: the athletes whom we most admire embody these tenets. Nobody really likes Roger Clemons even though he is undeniably a great pitcher. Same for Barry Bonds, who holds a home run record. Nobody likes them because they behave poorly. Does Taekwondo really need a Barry Bonds or a Roger Clemons? I say no.

Bottom line is that if you hold a rank in a martial art, then you should behave like a martial artist, not like a juvenile on the schoolyard. Just because grown men in the NFL, NBA, and MLB do it doesn't make it anything else. When you wear that belt, better is expected of you.

Daniel

 

[Tez3]

Obviously the Olympics competitors have black belts but what's their rank generally? Do they have to be any specific Dan grade to compete?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Tez, I looked on the USAT site and except for the Junior Blackbelt Division, there seems to be no belt requirement at all. I didn't dig too long or too deeply, so I could be mistaken.

Daniel

 

[mango.man]

Obviously the Olympics competitors have black belts but what's their rank generally? Do they have to be any specific Dan grade to compete?

KKW 1st dan is all you need

 

[Laurentkd]

It is my understanding that most have a 1st Dan only. I believe the general thought is Why worry about progressing in rank when all you really want to do is spar? This may be a misconception though as I am not involved at that level.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It is my understanding that most have a 1st Dan only. I believe the general thought is Why worry about progressing in rank when all you really want to do is spar? This may be a misconception though as I am not involved at that level.

Actually, I don't personally believe that you should even bother with first dan if all you want to do is spar. If you want to compete in tournaments that require you to be blackbelt, then that is about the only reason. But once you wear that black belt and accept that certificate, you should behave like a dan rank practitioner, both in and out of the dojang. And that includes competition.

Daniel

 

[YoungMan]

Not necessarily. Don't confuse the martial arts setting with tournament free sparring. True, you must hold at a 1st Dan to compete. But limiting yourself to sparring, drills, steps practice, and armor practice is not the same thing as practicing martial arts. This entails the whole spectrum of endeavor: forms, basics, Oriental culture, philosophy etc.
Focusing on Olympic sparring does not make you a martial artist or require the martial arts mentality, it is merely organized athletics. As such, what we think of proper martial arts etiquette and behavior does not come into play.

 

[Laurentkd]

Not necessarily. Don't confuse the martial arts setting with tournament free sparring. True, you must hold at a 1st Dan to compete. But limiting yourself to sparring, drills, steps practice, and armor practice is not the same thing as practicing martial arts. This entails the whole spectrum of endeavor: forms, basics, Oriental culture, philosophy etc.
Focusing on Olympic sparring does not make you a martial artist or require the martial arts mentality, it is merely organized athletics. As such, what we think of proper martial arts etiquette and behavior does not come into play.

But, in my opinion if you are a 1st Dan you are a martial artist and should always show good etiquette and behavior in all areas of life. And if no martial art etiquette should come into play why do we still bow to each other before and after the match?

 

[zDom]

Not necessarily. Don't confuse the martial arts setting with tournament free sparring. True, you must hold at a 1st Dan to compete. But limiting yourself to sparring, drills, steps practice, and armor practice is not the same thing as practicing martial arts. This entails the whole spectrum of endeavor: forms, basics, Oriental culture, philosophy etc.
Focusing on Olympic sparring does not make you a martial artist or require the martial arts mentality, it is merely organized athletics. As such, what we think of proper martial arts etiquette and behavior does not come into play.

IMO, non-martial artists have no business competing in a martial art sport.

FIRST step: become a martial artist.

THEN play the martial artist games.

Skipping the first and rushing into the second has turned out, as I would have expected it to, to be bad. Even worse is letting the non-martial artists dominate the sport and administration of the sport.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Not necessarily. Don't confuse the martial arts setting with tournament free sparring. True, you must hold at a 1st Dan to compete. But limiting yourself to sparring, drills, steps practice, and armor practice is not the same thing as practicing martial arts. This entails the whole spectrum of endeavor: forms, basics, Oriental culture, philosophy etc.
Focusing on Olympic sparring does not make you a martial artist or require the martial arts mentality, it is merely organized athletics. As such, what we think of proper martial arts etiquette and behavior does not come into play.

You just summed up all of the reasons that a sparring oriented person with no interest beyond competition should not bother with a first dan.

Those that wish to compete in events that require it should only go for first dan if they are willing to live up to what it actually means to be a first dan and cease advancing until their goals go beyond tournament competition.

Daniel