A odd thing said in Olympic commentary

[IcemanSK]

I was up late watching the 1st night of TKD, & watching the commentary written on the screen. The guy writting the commentary said he was one of the Olympic assistant coaches. I didn't catch his name. He answered questions folks wrote in via email address. One answer I thought was odd.

An email asked about keeping their hands down. He responded, "for my lower rank students, I teach them to keep their hands up. For this level of competition, they should know how to protect their heads by now."

Given the fact that nearly every attempted head kick I've seen in several hours of watching has either scored or should have (meaning no block or head movement was attempted), I find this waaay off the mark in terms of what is happening &/or trained for.

Anyone agree with him? Can anyone shed light on his thought process on that?

 

[MBuzzy]

I know of a few competitors who keep their hands down intentionally, trying to invite a strike to the head, relying on speed to block and going for the counter created by their movement for a head strike. Whether this is effective or reliable or not....well, that's up to opinion, but I'm definately not good enough to rely on it. Particularly at that level of competition.

 

[thardey]

I was up late watching the 1st night of TKD, & watching the commentary written on the screen. The guy writting the commentary said he was one of the Olympic assistant coaches. I didn't catch his name. He answered questions folks wrote in via email address. One answer I thought was odd.

An email asked about keeping their hands down. He responded, "for my lower rank students, I teach them to keep their hands up. For this level of competition, they should know how to protect their heads by now."

Given the fact that nearly every attempted head kick I've seen in several hours of watching has either scored or should have (meaning no block or head movement was attempted), I find this waaay off the mark in terms of what is happening &/or trained for.

Anyone agree with him? Can anyone shed light on his thought process on that?

I don't do TKD specifically, but I often fight with one hand down. It depends on my attack strategy. If I'm facing the opponent directly (sort of a boxer stance) I keep both hands high, and slightly to the outside, with my elbows down to cover my body. This makes a good "blitz" stance.

If I'm in a more defensive mood, I'll use a relaxed side stance, and let my front hand drop to cover the otherwise inviting body shots, and the rear hand comes around to cover the inside of my body, and my head. I actually have much more success with that as a defensive posture. Once you turn into a side-stance, keeping both hands high is impractical and awkward. However, your body position more than makes up for it.

 

[mango.man]

I believe that Sherman Nelson was providing the commentary: http://www.usa-taekwondo.us/624_1967.htm

My philosophy on hands up or down is that the huge majority of points are scored on shots to the body so keep your hands down to be better off blocking those and hope you can get them up fast enough to block the rare head shot.

Most of the head kicks that I saw last night and this morning (I only watched the girls because well I am the dad of a girl with Olympic aspirations) were axe kicks or attempts at axe kicks to the face. Hands up might be good to defend roundhouse type kicks that come from the side. But axe kicks up the middle are not so easily "blocked" even if your hands are up. Best bet is to evade or accept the fact you are about to get nailed and try a counter roundhouse to the body and hope to get at a point yourself out of the exchange.

That is my take and that is the way this game is played. And all these people complaining about keeping your hands up or how is this useful in self defense and all of that garbage need to understand the Olympic TKD is a game and only a game. Deal with it. If you think you can do better by keeping your hands up, go get yourself a Kukkiwon cert and make it into the 2012 games. I can pretty much promise you though that you won't make it to the 2012 games because if you go into every fight building up to Olympic qualification events you will lose far more fights than you will win if your only objective is to protect your head.

 

[Laurentkd]

I was up late watching the 1st night of TKD, & watching the commentary written on the screen. The guy writting the commentary said he was one of the Olympic assistant coaches. I didn't catch his name. He answered questions folks wrote in via email address. One answer I thought was odd.

An email asked about keeping their hands down. He responded, "for my lower rank students, I teach them to keep their hands up. For this level of competition, they should know how to protect their heads by now."

Given the fact that nearly every attempted head kick I've seen in several hours of watching has either scored or should have (meaning no block or head movement was attempted), I find this waaay off the mark in terms of what is happening &/or trained for.
Anyone agree with him? Can anyone shed light on his thought process on that?

You make a good point. I tend to spar with my hands down most of the time, but when sparring my instructor I keep them up because I know he can hit my head. You would think that once an athlete took a head shot he would then keep his hands higher. But, I know that one thought behind keeping the hands low is that it tends to be a natural block for a roundhouse kick to the body. I think it would be better for the sport if we sparred with our hands up, but until hand strikes to the head are allowed that probably won't happen.

On a highjack note.... did anyone think Charlotte's last second face strike should have counted and thus won her the match?

 

[Mimir]

My wife and I were watching the matches last night and we were both perplexed by the hands down approach. We have always been taught to keep our hands up.

One of the other things that we noticed was little to no blocking

 

[mango.man]

At the world class level of this game, blocking is generally discouraged because a block will often still be interpreted as a point for your opponent. Too many judges, even at the Olympic level, score too often based on the sound they hear rather than the strike they see.

You are generally better off counter-kicking through your opponent's atttack (counters score more than offensive kicks) or shutting down your opponent by clinching when they kick. For your only defensive move to be a block and only a block, you are certainly doomed.

Regarding Charlotte's last fight:

Well I will tell you this, and this is coming from the father of a girl who has fought Charlotte several times and we see her all over the place and we have the greatest respect for her.

She came out for her first fight and was completely focused and had the look in her eye that we have seen dozens of times over the years.

I don't know if Jean told her anything about relaxing or anything like that, but when she came out for her second fight (I am talking when they came out of the tunnel, not stepped onto the mat) she was smiling and waving up into the stands and so forth. She just didn't have that same determined look. When she step on the mat she did, but leading up to that point she just didn't look into it for the 2nd fight.

The 3rd round of her 2nd fight was by far her best, but by then she was pretty well done for. Once you give up that first point at this level, it is very difficult to dig out.

She is a great competitor and represented the USA well though and at only 17 I am sure she will be in the 2012 games.

 

[IcemanSK]

I'm really not trying to start or add to the ongoing debate about whether or not one should have their hands down in Olympic-style sparring....just this guy's reasoning for it. To say that "at this level, they should know how to protect your head" seems like a silly thing to say. If these world-class athletes (& I don't dispute that they are) are trained to be so fast as to see a head kick coming & get out of the way, then truly 98% of these folks were absent on the days they practiced avoiding head shots.

It seems to be me that "how to block or get out of the way of a head kick" isn't part of the regiment in their training. But certainly to say, "they should be able to figure it out at this level" seems an even sillier thing to say.

 

[Andrew Green]

I can't really figure it out either, but I don't watch a lot of TKD, or really know all of the rules.

However, given that all of the competitors at that level do it there must be something about doing so that is beneficial as opposed to hands up at that level and under those rules.

"Keep your hands up" is not a great insight that somehow has passed the best people in the world by, yet is common wisdom amongst all of the lower levels. If it would help them, they would do it, or their opponents would and they would get beat.

 

[IcemanSK]

The more I watch, I think it was just a bad choice or words on this commentator's part. I can't imagine someone who claims to be an assistant coach (& school owner) meaning to say what he said.

 

[Mimir]

I am the first to admit that I know next to nothing about sparring at that level. I haven't even watched olympic style matches all that much. I have to say it is very different from the break for points style that I am used to doing and watching.

 

[Tez3]

I am the first to admit that I know next to nothing about sparring at that level. I haven't even watched olympic style matches all that much. I have to say it is very different from the break for points style that I am used to doing and watching.

Thats the same for me. I have to ask though ....why no punching? We were watching it at work and my colleagues were basically laughing at the TKD saying it's nothing more than a kicking competition. It was more like gymnastics than fighting. All I could say is that I don't do TKD and don't know the rules for the Olympic stuff but I have to admit it made me squirm a bit as I couldn't defend it as a martial art.
It's nothing like even point fighting in karate let along a martial art you can use to defend yourself with. My colleagues are either military or ex military btw so aren't easily impressed by even MMA.

 

[bluekey88]

Sadly, the reason for no punching is that despite a punch to the body "that cuases trembling shock" being worht a point...judges simply don't score punches. In effect, punches don't score. Perhaps in the future with the electronic hogus coming in we'll see more punches scored...right now, at best they are a defensive strategy to set up kicks. At the highest levels, even that strategy is ineffective.

It was said earlier in the thread...train to do it all, then dumb it down to work within the rules. That's what I do.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Sadly, the reason for no punching is that despite a punch to the body "that cuases trembling shock" being worht a point...judges simply don't score punches. In effect, punches don't score. Perhaps in the future with the electronic hogus coming in we'll see more punches scored...right now, at best they are a defensive strategy to set up kicks. At the highest levels, even that strategy is ineffective.

It was said earlier in the thread...train to do it all, then dumb it down to work within the rules. That's what I do.

Peace,
Erik

Nothing wrong with that. The hands being down have just evolved as the sport has evolved into a predominantly kicking sport. Literally Olympic Tae Kwon Do people are simply some of the most fantastic kicking people on the planet. However that is their specialty and outside of that they may not be so well rounded. Yet that does depend on each individual.

Also not all Tae Kwon Do is Olympic Tae Kwon Do. There is a drastic difference between the differnt Tae Kwon Do systems out there. Such as ITF (old schol) and the WTF. (modern Olympic TKD)

 

[Tez3]

For the London Olympics we will be bringing an old English sport in as alternative to the TKD.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/4605157.stm

 

[Laurentkd]

Sadly, the reason for no punching is that despite a punch to the body "that cuases trembling shock" being worht a point...judges simply don't score punches. In effect, punches don't score. Perhaps in the future with the electronic hogus coming in we'll see more punches scored...right now, at best they are a defensive strategy to set up kicks. At the highest levels, even that strategy is ineffective.

It was said earlier in the thread...train to do it all, then dumb it down to work within the rules. That's what I do.

Peace,
Erik

I was suprised they didn't use electronic hogus at the Olympics... have they just not proved effective enough yet?

Nothing wrong with that. The hands being down have just evolved as the sport has evolved into a predominantly kicking sport. Literally Olympic Tae Kwon Do people are simply some of the most fantastic kicking people on the planet. However that is their specialty and outside of that they may not be so well rounded. Yet that does depend on each individual.

Also not all Tae Kwon Do is Olympic Tae Kwon Do. There is a drastic difference between the differnt Tae Kwon Do systems out there. Such as ITF (old schol) and the WTF. (modern Olympic TKD)

And just as it depends on the inidividual, it depends on the individual school as well. You will find many WTF schools that consider themselves "old school"... you just have to look around a little.

 

[bluekey88]

I'm not exactly an insider. I saw the new hogus on display at nationals. There has also been at least one tournament that they were used in...however I don't think all the kinks are worked out yet. Certainly not by IOC standards.

I suspect there'll be more of a push at national and world level tournaments and we will see them in 2012.

Peace,
Erik

 

[mango.man]

From what I have seen of the demos of the e-hogu thus far, I have not been impressed.

If anyone out there wants to experience them first hand though, the Rocky Mtn Open, being held at the OTC in Colo Spgs in Decmeber will be using them.

From the registration packet:

3. 14–17 Year Old Black Belts and Senior Division (All Belts)​

In Rocky Mountain Open sparring competition, the Senior Black Belt adult rules shall apply for these divisions. Junior (14-
17) and Senior Black Belt divisions will also wear Electronic Body Protectors (EBP) provided by USA Taekwondo for all​

sparring matches

So there is your opportunity to see and or use them first hand.

 

[Andrew Green]

From what I have seen of the demos of the e-hogu thus far, I have not been impressed.

I've not even heard of them, but I am picturing a high voltage shock whenever you get hit. Big flash, disabling shock that knocks the person back and sends them flying.

That is what I am envisioning here, and I would appreciate no one bursting my bubble and claiming they are more like fencing set ups just used for score keeping.

 

[Kwanjang]

Originally Posted by bluekey88
Sadly, the reason for no punching is that despite a punch to the body "that cuases trembling shock" being worht a point...judges simply don't score punches



This is a little off topic, I have seen this many times and as a TKDist I don't understand this at al. Yeah, TKD is a lot of kicking. But I seen people who can punch hard enough to knock the wind out of you through the hogu. (chest protector) and still not get a valid point.