Your Fighting Tip

[Mz1]

James Toney vs Randy Couture. Boxers dont always win. Oddly enough in most style vs style fights that I am aware of, the boxer does not win. Against an untrained fighter, the boxer has an obvious advantage.

Gene Lebell vs Milo Savage.

Another example. Boxers have amazing punching power, but the limitations of the art to only striking can work against it.

Can you show me where I said "Boxers always win"? Otherwise, you just made it up.

I fight MMA and Boxing so I obviously know the weaknesses of pure a pure Boxer to never make such statement.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That's more in the line of friendly ribbing really. Similar to when those who thinks that Boxing and MMA techniques such as elbowing someone in the face really hard, can't possibly work in the streets and calls us "cagey guys", sports fighter, etc.

ordinarily i'd agree it's just friendly ribbing, but Mz1 is continuously using it, in more than just a 'friendly ribbing' way, he seems to really think we believe in some movie ninja striking s*** that wouldn't ever work.

That's one of my hobbies actually. I like going to different gyms to spar, including TMA ones. And I've trained plenty of traditional Jujutsu. Also, your info is wrong about Judo being TMA. Judo is the sports version of Jujutsu. It's almost what MMA is today when created by Kano. It may be perceived by yourself as being traditional, only because it's been around a long time.

The comment about sparring TMA schools wasn't directed at you...I already have respect for you and know that you don't neglect or disrespect certain types of school for no reason. We disagree a bit, but I respect both you and your opinion. As for the Judo/jujutsu, a friend of mine takes judo and considers it a TMA so that's why I assumed it was. Sorry..but for Mz1, my statement is still the same minus the judo.

 

[Xue Sheng]

There is Olympic Judo of the 21st century and then there is the Kodokan Judo of Kano Jigoro..... and they are not exactly the same.

And I don't think Kano looked at it as just a sport

Since the very beginning, I had been categorizing Judo into three parts, rentai-ho, shobu-ho, and shushin-ho. Rentai-ho refers to Judo as a physical exercise, while shobu-ho is Judo as a martial art. Shushin-ho is the cultivation of wisdom and virtue as well as the study and application of the principles of Judo in our daily lives. I therefore anticipated that practitioners would develop their bodies in an ideal manner, to be outstanding in matches, and also to improve their wisdom and virtue and make the spirit of Judo live in their daily lives. If we consider Judo first as a physical exercise, we should remember that our bodies should not be stiff, but free, quick and strong. We should be able to move properly in response to our opponent's unexpected attacks. We should also not forget to make full use of every opportunity during our practice to improve our wisdom and virtue. These are the ideal principles of my Judo. - Kano Jigoro

 

[Kframe]

Ciridan and others, have you tested your moves in hard sparring? Have you actually tried them against fully resisting opponents? If not then how can you say they are working for you? Im not totaly bashing TMA, they have alot of well made techniques that work, my problem lies in their fascination with complicated and "dangerous" moves that cant be safely applied in any kind of training. Take that nerve strike talked about above, have any of you applied it in hard sparring with a fully resisting opponent? That is where the tma fall short, imho is in the application of there "advanced" material, they just fail to train it in a realistic fashion.

So how can you say its working for you if you never apply it to people fighting back?? PLease show me hard concrete examples of TMA training and its application, and how you guys train it for real altercations. Especially the high end manuvers such as the nerve strike mentioned above. I truely want to know what training technique tma does that you feel adaquately prepares you to use such high lvl tech against live opponents.

 

[Flying Crane]

I dont have much time, but i want to mention some thoughts. I agree with Mz1 a little bit, as does my coach. My coach has plenty of TMA experiance, but moved on for the very thing mz1 is talking about. He wanted to apply his training in a realistic approach. Part of the problem with TMA in his opinion and mine is the sparring and theory craft. Before i settled on where im at now, i bounced around a few tma places and the sparring was rediculous. The martialartists didnt even look like there style, sure they all did there kata well and the line drills and the air strikes well, but the moment they started trying to do there sparring they looked like poorly trained kick boxers. Nothing from what they were doing was recognizeable. They looked as if they never actually trained pressure into there movements, as in doing them correctly against pressure of a moving resisting opponent. My own sparring vs a tkd bb bore this out for me as well.

The tma need to get smarter about there sparring. No more hands down on your hips stance crap, actualy use a viable fight stance. They need to focus on doing there moves correctly with increasing lvls of pressure, which from my experiance and my coaches is absent. Now i dont think you should be ko sparring thats stupid, but 60-70% sparring would be amazing for any martial artist to refine there skill set, and it tests your endurance. Fighting is hard lol.

There are a lot of viable fighting technique in the tma, but its method of training is so convoluted that it takes years to understand it. Watching the progression of others from white to black and beyond its amazing. They learn one thing from white to black then its like ok, everything we tuaght you was wrong so now that your black learn it the correct way. WTF is that, why not just teach the fight applicable stuff right from the begining. In boxing and in mma the first things i was tuaght were how to stand and hold my hands and how to throw the most important puches ill ever know, the left and right.

Tma need to stop burying the fight applicable stuff in complicated and convoluted training methodology and just start practicing the real moves and techniques more often then the fight dance tma styles seem to love doing and watching.

Not trying to pick on anything, my schools combatives programs striking skill set is very heavily Epak kenpo. Just with out the kata, the line drills, and air strikes. If we want to learn a combination or practice a block or defense, coach walks us through the movements while using real attacks against us. Its amazing, i love every minute of what im doing.. It feels real..

Again, i think the TMA have some VERY valid fighting technique in them, I just feel that they need to stop being mired in outdated and in efficent training methods.. Just train the real and correct way to fight..

I don't exactly disagree with much of what you are saying here, but it boils down to the quality of the school. Not the quality of traditional martial arts. Sounds to me like you've had a lot of experience with low quality schools.

I will say that many TMA schools set poor examples of how to train. But that's because they are crappy schools giving crappy instruction. And their clientelle allows them to get away with it, so they do, for the money. The TMAs, when trained correctly, offer a set of very effective skills. But you gotta find a good teacher and that ain't all that easy nowadays.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ciridan and others, have you tested your moves in hard sparring? Have you actually tried them against fully resisting opponents? If not then how can you say they are working for you? Im not totaly bashing TMA, they have alot of well made techniques that work, my problem lies in their fascination with complicated and "dangerous" moves that cant be safely applied in any kind of training. Take that nerve strike talked about above, have any of you applied it in hard sparring with a fully resisting opponent? That is where the tma fall short, imho is in the application of there "advanced" material, they just fail to train it in a realistic fashion.

So how can you say its working for you if you never apply it to people fighting back?? PLease show me hard concrete examples of TMA training and its application, and how you guys train it for real altercations. Especially the high end manuvers such as the nerve strike mentioned above. I truely want to know what training technique tma does that you feel adaquately prepares you to use such high lvl tech against live opponents.

I think you've hit something here, particularly with the complicated moves. I agree, a lot of TMA include complicated solutions that look good in theory but I find very very sketchy in real life. But that's not all TMA, and that's not all that is found in the TMA that include complicated solutions. I think the key is in perspective. When the rubber hits the road, it's the simple stuff that gets used and that's what works. Simple, basic techniques done with a tremendous amount of power. That's how I see it, and it works very well my the traditional system that I train.

So what purpose does the complicated stuff serve? Sometimes it just gives you exercise, sometimes it's meant to help broaden your vision of what might be possible. Some of it is downright stupid and probably would be well worth ejecting. Sure, there's some really stupid stuff that people are doing nowadays. But that's not the definition of TMA. When it comes to using it for real, it's the simple stuff, the solid basics, that gives the most mileage.

 

[Aiki Lee]

[QUOTE=Mz1;1528970] I guess vs. untrained slobs on thestreets, it may work. While against trained "cagey guys" = I thinkyou're going to get KO'ed. [/QUOTE]

First, one should always assume their opponent is competent and dangerous. theminute you think someone is just an "untrained slob" he will surpriseyou with something. I've had my fair share of real fights, and they always feeldifferent from a competitive match of which I have also had a fair share of. Sowhether you want to believe me or not, I do know what I'm talking about here. BTW when I say "Cagey guys" I'm talking about a mindset seen in sport fighting (the cage), where a guy isn't commiting to attacking and is looking to react and counter the other guy.

Therefore, your ninja moves are only in theory. While uscagey guys tests out our techniques plenty of times at full speed and power toget good at it and to find out if it works for real or not.

Do you think years of martial arts tradition comes only from theory? That noone, anywhere has ever successfully used these principles? Have you never heardof randori? Sport fighters are not the only people who test their skill undersuch conditions. I'll get to your comments about "ninja moves" at theend.

Use MMA gloves then. Or you don't have to use gloves, theMMA or Boxer will though.

We do use fingerless gloves from time to time as well as other protectiveequipment during stress training and the idea of striking the elbow (both as acounter and as a method of taking initiative still applies). It's not magic;it's a very simple tactic. You just need repetitive training under liveconditions to do it properly.

I don't I'm going to retreat from a guy who's trying attackmy arm that's swinging punches at him. I'll just take the chance and try toknock him out.

When I stated retreat, I didn't mean run away. I was just refering to backingup and getting more space. You take whatever chance you want; it won't matterif your opponent is doing what I'm suggesting. If he screws it up that's hisproblem, he'd fail the technique not the other way around.

You are not the final authority on how ALL self defense situations goes downvs. that of a sport environment. Nor can you prove that they both must bedifferent. You just read these theories somewhere and assumed that they'retrue.

Just as you are assuming I've just read theories?
Look a sport fight doesn't resemble self-defense. In sparring or sportscompetition the fighters aim to out perform one another. Hit while avoid beinghit, choke or submit while avoiding being choked or submitted. SD is about dowhat you need to end the threat. In SD when the attacker attacks his mind isonly on attacking, not on thinking about what you can do to him. Soself-defense is different from sports, all the time, everytime. That doesn'tmean you can't use the skills learned from sports MA to deal with a SDsituation, it just means you have to adapt those skills to a new environment.But they cannot be treated the same.

In a life or death fight their is little thought to defense. Ever heard thesaying "the best defense is a good offense"? That saying is truebecause in a real fight that is not about ego (i.e. proving your a big shot, ortop dog, or whatever), both combatants are aiming to attack. Defensivemanuevers simply set up the next attack. If you think of attacking you cannotdefend. If you thinking of defending you cannot attack. If for whatever reasona combatant stops attacking it is because he know longer thinks he can win. Ina real fight when that happens, someone leaves. When they don't leave it iseither sport or ego.

To me, a fight is just a fight. The more I fight over theyears, the more I am calm. The more calm and loose I am, the better I usuallydo.

This shows you've never had your life or well being actually threatened.Fighting in sports is way different than fighting in self-defense or in a H2Hbattlefield situation.

Like I said, prove it. Just go to a Boxing or MMA gym andask for some hard sparring and video it for us. Otherwise it's just your theorythat it will work. While us "cagier guys" have used to 'ol reliable,"punch them in the face". It's tried and proven.

So you want me to walk into a strangers gym, beat up someone I don't know, filmit, post it, disregard everything my teacher ever taught me about the purposeof our training, all so I can win an argument with someone on the internet. Yalike that's going to happen.

BTW the "ol' reliable punch them in the face" tactic is less of agood idea without gloves (i.e. in SD) cuz you risk breaking your hand againstthe person's skull. Gloves aren't designed to protect the other guy's face;they are designed to protect your hand. Use an open had to the face if that isyour target (in SD).

Thanks, but it wasn't that big a deal.

Hapkido guys aren'tusually known to be very good with their hands to begin with.

Here we have an example of being insulting. More at the bottom.

So fighters who fight wouldn't know anything about angling,timing and awareness, etc. but people who don't fight that theorize only,do?

Of course fighters have these skills, but they are developed differently andfor a different purpose than people who train in a battlefield or SD martialart. An MMA fighter's timing, angling, and awareness are developed so that heor she is better able to win the match. Other methods use different angles,timing, and ideas about awareness because there goals are surival, escape,arrest, or kill. You keep talking about people who "theorize", whatdo you think I do in the dojo anyway?

Where was I being insulting?

Well, the way you’ve been speaking to Tez3 just on thelast page was pretty rude. I know when I call someone an “amateur” or “Sherlock”I’m not paying them any compliments.
Then there is the Hapikdo comment in red, which justspews ignorance. If those guys you sparred with weren’t very good at your gamethat doesn’t mean jack squat about Hapkido as a whole. Lumping people in agroup like that just becomes a useless “my style is better than yours argument”.
Now personally, I’m offended at the constant use of “ninjamoves”. You use the term do mock the idea as fantastical garbage withoutactually explaining why you think it won’t work beyond “I’d just punch him inthe face”. But here’s the ironic part,what I’m advocating IS A NINJA MOVE. The tactic I advocate can be seen by observingGyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu strategy.
You don’t understand martial arts as well as you thinkyou do.

 

[Mz1]

I dont have much time, but i want to mention some thoughts. I agree with Mz1 a little bit, as does my coach.

You actually agree with me a lot

but the moment they started trying to do there sparring they looked like poorly trained kick boxers. Nothing from what they were doing was recognizeable.

This is mainly why Karatekas created kickboxing and K-1 to skip or at least not spend to much time on the katas that are hardly ever used in a real fight. Boxers have kata, it's called shadowboxing. Difference being, they shadowbox the way they would fight.

Now i dont think you should be ko sparring thats stupid, but 60-70% sparring would be amazing for any martial artist to refine there skill set, and it tests your endurance. Fighting is hard lol.

Average sparring in my gym is about 60-70% power and it can knock you out and certainly does hurt. 60-70% power usually spikes to 100% pretty often once someone thinks they got hit too hard. This is pretty standard.

Here's an excellent commentary on the validity of Self Defense training vs. MMA.

 

[frank raud]

MZ1, as you are convinced that TMA is useless and ineffective against the superior skills of boxing and MMA, and you are not far from Fairfax VA, I would suggest you get together with the guy who started this thread, Zenjael. I think it would be a reality check.

 

[Mz1]

There is Olympic Judo of the 21st century and then there is the Kodokan Judo of Kano Jigoro..... and they are not exactly the same.

And I don't think Kano looked at it as just a sport

Well Kano was first, a master Jujutsuka. He's obviously not going to abandon everything spiritual concerning Jujutsu. Jujutsu wasn't just his base, but his life. He even first called his creation, Kano's Jujutsu before coming up with Judo.

But he certainly did meant for Judo to be a sport by discarding most of the small joint locks and such. Giving Judokas the opportunity to train hard and compete hard while limiting the cheap, thumb locks, wrist locks, etc. of Jujutsu that are prone to cause injuries and taking athletes out of the game. Just like Karate, Kung-Fu, Wing Chun, etc...all conduct their own tournaments for medals & trophies with rules against eye pokes, biting, and such. These are not magical techniques that no MMA fighters can't possibly train nor be good at, it's just that MMA train to fight honorably.

So how does being a well tuned fighter with plenty of hard sparring and fighting experience not help someone should they have to fight in the street? And how can play fighting using death strikes and such be better on the streets when it's never been tried against someone who knows how to fight. Sure, it should work vs. someone street slob or drunkard, but so should punching them in the face, as trained in MMA.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

MZ1, as you are convinced that TMA is useless and ineffective against the superior skills of boxing and MMA, and you are not far from Fairfax VA, I would suggest you get together with the guy who started this thread, Zenjael. I think it would be a reality check.

hmmm i don't know if I would want Zenjael to be a representative of TMA to someone who is already skeptical about them...

 

[Carol]

hmmm i don't know if I would want Zenjael to be a representative of TMA to someone who is already skeptical about them...

Frank never said who it would be a reality check for...

 

[Mz1]

[QUOTE=Mz1;1528970] First, one should always assume their opponent is competent and dangerous. theminute you think someone is just an "untrained slob" he will surpriseyou with something.

Show me where I said that I'd always assume someone on the street to automatically be an untrained slob. You completely made this up.

I've had my fair share of real fights, and they always feeldifferent from a competitive match of which I have also had a fair share of. Sowhether you want to believe me or not, I do know what I'm talking about here. BTW when I say "Cagey guys" I'm talking about a mindset seen in sport fighting (the cage), where a guy isn't commiting to attacking and is looking to react and counter the other guy.

You obviously have not fought anyone trained nor experienced then because your last sentence just tells me that you fought these untrained slobs that I was talking about. And it's not even correct. You just described one type of fighting style, counterfighting. Not all "Cagey Guys" are counterfighters.

Do you think years of martial arts tradition comes only from theory? That noone, anywhere has ever successfully used these principles? Have you never heardof randori? Sport fighters are not the only people who test their skill undersuch conditions. I'll get to your comments about "ninja moves" at theend.

I've only trained in BJJ (by Japanese Judokas) and Danzan Ryu Jujutsu so how could I possibly know what "randori" means. And years of MA traditions doesn't automatically makes it effective. Some of it is for show, like a 540 degrees tornado kick or something. I'm sure it can hurt someone, but go ahead, try it in a real fight. This is the point.

I'll answer the rest later, going to to watch TV now.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Show me where I said that I'd always assume someone on the street to automatically be an untrained slob. You completely made this up....You obviously have not fought anyone trained nor experienced then because your last sentence just tells me that you fought these untrained slobs that I was talking about....

Ok, this isn't really an argument, just something I noticed. You said he made up that you said you assume people are untrained slob, then you said that 'he fought the untrained slobs I was talking about', which suggests that you did mention street people are untrained slobs in a previous post. A bit of a contradiction there
As for an actual answer to that, he assumed you meant that when you said the thing about untrained slobs vs. street people, just like you assumed he was accusing you of saying that in his quote. Both assumptions, and both had reason for the assumption, you implied what himura responded to, just like himura implied he was responding to what you stated.

 

[Cyriacus]

hmmm i don't know if I would want Zenjael to be a representative of TMA to someone who is already skeptical about them...

I think he meant a reality check for both of them

 

[bluewaveschool]

Sweep the leg!

 

[Tez3]

I think someone has forgotten or maybe never knew that MMA is made up of the traditional martial arts so if traditional martial arts don't work...............

 

[Cirdan]

Ciridan and others, have you tested your moves in hard sparring? Have you actually tried them against fully resisting opponents? If not then how can you say they are working for you? Im not totaly bashing TMA, they have alot of well made techniques that work, my problem lies in their fascination with complicated and "dangerous" moves that cant be safely applied in any kind of training. Take that nerve strike talked about above, have any of you applied it in hard sparring with a fully resisting opponent? That is where the tma fall short, imho is in the application of there "advanced" material, they just fail to train it in a realistic fashion.

So how can you say its working for you if you never apply it to people fighting back?? PLease show me hard concrete examples of TMA training and its application, and how you guys train it for real altercations. Especially the high end manuvers such as the nerve strike mentioned above. I truely want to know what training technique tma does that you feel adaquately prepares you to use such high lvl tech against live opponents.

I have pressure tested my training adequately, why do you suppose I have not?

I don`t have to break my friend`s nose with my elbow to know that I can, same thing with any other move.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I have pressure tested my training adequately, why do you suppose I have not?

I don`t have to break my friend`s nose with my elbow to know that I can, same thing with any other move.

I think it's fair to ask if someone has tested their techniques against a truly resisting opponent who is also seeking to hit back.

There's a world of difference between elbowing someone in the nose and some of the techniques previously discussed. At any rate, I don't think it's under dispute that certain techniques can work, just that they may not work against a determined opponent.

 

[Cirdan]

I think it's fair to ask if someone has tested their techniques against a truly resisting opponent who is also seeking to hit back.

Of course that is a fair question, however the rest of the post pretty much asumed I had not.
There is also the labeling of TMA as unrealistic which I will disagree with.

There's a world of difference between elbowing someone in the nose and some of the techniques previously discussed. At any rate, I don't think it's under dispute that certain techniques can work, just that they may not work against a determined opponent.

I don`t know any ninja death moves so I can`t offer insight there. However I think most traditional arts spend way more time perfecting basic things like rooting and power than they do on ... cinematic stuff.
The point of the elbow to the nose is that you can`t test that 100% either. There is no such thing as 100% sparring or we would not be going home after class.