Your Fighting Tip

[Flying Crane]

is the popcorn ready?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

is the popcorn ready?

just made it..here you go opcorn:, and something to drink as well :cheers:

 

[jks9199]

Sounds kinky. but the gear is what may save the guy with the secret Ninja move from ending up in the hospital for a long time should he goes to an MMA or Boxing gym to try that.

The problem is that the gloves and safety gear also change the way techniques work. A simple example is boxing's modern peek-a-boo stance. Makes sense with gloves that help block and protect you. Try it without gloves, and it doesn't work nearly so well...

There are a lot of techniques that work well in sparring, but are unrealistic in a real fight. There are techniques that work great in a formal one-step exercise of paired kata that don't work (or at least not the way they're shown) when you spar.

 

[Kframe]

Jks9199, if i may disagree a little bit sir with your assumption that some boxing tech dosent work on the street.. My friend is 68 years old, former multi golden glove winner, and a great guy. He had a "interesting" youth, including 3 full out street fights which occurred during his peak boxing years. He is the person responsible for getting me into boxing 1 year ago. I have asked him about this very subject, and he says that the guard does in fact work, cuase he has used it. Now i must clarify that by guard i mean his guard(similar to mine), not the peekabo. Peekabo is only one boxing technique there are many ways to stand. Part of the boxing guard regardless of how you place your hand is using your shoulders as part of the "block". My coach and many in my former boxing gym the shoulder nearly covers the entire jaw area when we are in full defensive mode, with our hands on our cheeks. Alot of times, we are finding that when we defend shots using one of the boxing guards the shots usually end up on our upper forearms.

My own hard sparring using mma and with out(in my current combatives school we do our defensive class, the defender does not wear gloves) i have found the sheild defense IN CONJUNCTION with movement to be a good defense for punches. Becuase of the movement we are not taking full power shots to the hands/forearms. I find it easier to defend with out gloves then with them honestly but thats just me. Just becuase we train with gloves does not mean we dont think, it doesnt take much manipulation of some of our guards to be effective with out gloves.

Now JKS you mentioned this "here are a lot of techniques that work well in sparring, but are unrealistic in a real fight. There are techniques that work great in a formal one-step exercise of paired kata that don't work (or at least not the way they're shown) when you spar." My question is, If the techniques only work in 1 steps and in kata but dont work in a real fight why practice them at all? Or is it one of those situations were you are practicing a large exagerated movement to learn a smaller movement that you use in a fight? Im assuming the later, but if not, why keep them??

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I don't think what JKS was talking about was any formal guard in boxing, just that particular one, as an example of how it may not relate perfectly. And as for the gloves not mattering in defense, I personally find (not translating JKS here, this is IMHO) that it's in offense it makes a huge difference. Being able to hit with the knuckles you want, placing them much easier, is what you can't do when you have gloves on. As for defense, my guard is almost the exact same with or without gloves on, and the only differences in it are a result of easier offense, not defense. So if JKS meant any boxing guard, then I have to disagree with that.
As for your last question, it's a way to preserve a general movement that can be adapted to multiple situations. Let's take a 'phoenix fist' that may be to the jaw in an exercise or kata. Obviously, in a real fight, you would never throw this to the jaw. However, you could throw it to the neck, slightly below the jaw, or the eye, slightly above the jaw. That's why you would learn it that way..to have a basis you can adapt from.

 

[jks9199]

Jks9199, if i may disagree a little bit sir with your assumption that some boxing tech dosent work on the street.. My friend is 68 years old, former multi golden glove winner, and a great guy. He had a "interesting" youth, including 3 full out street fights which occurred during his peak boxing years. He is the person responsible for getting me into boxing 1 year ago. I have asked him about this very subject, and he says that the guard does in fact work, cuase he has used it. Now i must clarify that by guard i mean his guard(similar to mine), not the peekabo. Peekabo is only one boxing technique there are many ways to stand. Part of the boxing guard regardless of how you place your hand is using your shoulders as part of the "block". My coach and many in my former boxing gym the shoulder nearly covers the entire jaw area when we are in full defensive mode, with our hands on our cheeks. Alot of times, we are finding that when we defend shots using one of the boxing guards the shots usually end up on our upper forearms.

Please note that I gave one specific example of a boxing practice that doesn't work well on the street; I most certainly did not say that boxing has no relevance to a street fight. But there are some dangerous habits learned in sport fighting, whether boxing, kickboxing, MMA, wrestling, fencing, or what-have-you, that you have to be aware of if your interest is to transition to real combat. Again, looking solely at modern boxing, you have no throws, very limited targets, limited weapons, no kicking, an opponent who is close to your own size, a fairly clear and safe fighting environment, a ref whose job is to stop things if one fighter is in too much trouble... But, at the same time, you've got guys who can HIT, and who have learned to take a hit and keep going. Wrestlers don't have punches, no joint manipulation, etc. Each combat sport has it's own flaws in comparison to real violence. But that doesn't mean they can't teach you something useful in real violent situations.

My own hard sparring using mma and with out(in my current combatives school we do our defensive class, the defender does not wear gloves) i have found the sheild defense IN CONJUNCTION with movement to be a good defense for punches. Becuase of the movement we are not taking full power shots to the hands/forearms. I find it easier to defend with out gloves then with them honestly but thats just me. Just becuase we train with gloves does not mean we dont think, it doesnt take much manipulation of some of our guards to be effective with out gloves.

Now JKS you mentioned this "here are a lot of techniques that work well in sparring, but are unrealistic in a real fight. There are techniques that work great in a formal one-step exercise of paired kata that don't work (or at least not the way they're shown) when you spar." My question is, If the techniques only work in 1 steps and in kata but dont work in a real fight why practice them at all? Or is it one of those situations were you are practicing a large exagerated movement to learn a smaller movement that you use in a fight? Im assuming the later, but if not, why keep them??

There are many reasons you see things go on like that. Sometimes, they're teaching a principle that can be expanded on and used effectively in different ways. Or they preserve a strategy. Some forms or drills are simply meant to work one particular element -- and they don't (and aren't ) supposed to reflect reality. And... sometimes, it's folks who just don't know better, or they way they practice the exercise. Ever seen someone doing one-step sparring, but at unrealistic ranges or the attacker sticks a hand out and leaves it there for the defender to do their thing...

 

[Cyriacus]

is the popcorn ready?

I think We'll need refreshments in a bit.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I'm not doubting that you can explain how this plays out in your head, but I am doubting that you can pull this off vs. someone your size, skill level and experience during hard sparring or a fight.

In a SD situation when you face a committed attacker it is quite easy to perform. Against a cagey guy it is still not as hard as you are making it out to be, but then again I wouldn't fight cagey guy, because if I did it wouldn't be self-defense.

If trying to attack someone's arm as they're punching you works so well and just not some movie Ninja move, then full time, Martial Artists would be winning titles in Pro Boxing and Pro MMA....where they can become multi-millionaires in less than a year...drive and crash a brand new $300,000 Bently like Jon Jones who's like 23 years old....bringing glory to their style, school, etc. ...WORLDWIDE....rather than be some martial artist who makes around $10,000-30,000 a year and peddling their DVD's at seminars where less than a dozen people usually show up.

Except with gloves it becomes harder to pull off, and the other guy is more likely to retreat in a cage or ring because he has the space to escape. It's a self-defense oriented thought, where the attacker's intent and energy is different than in a sport environment.

Best way to prove this is to go to a Boxing or MMA gym and ask to spar hard with someone. Go in for the free intro class and tell them you have a ton of experience and want to do some standup hard sparring. Bring all of your gear, especially headgear + mouthguard. Film it and post it on YouTube for us.

Like I said before, agaist a cagier guy you would have to strike the elbow in it's resting state. It's a set up to make the opponent give you something back. You wouldn't use it as a counter strike unless it was against a committed attack where the person is not focused on his defense (a.k.a. self-defense).

I've sparred with Hapkido guys at this one TKD/HKD school. They were red and black belts. I beat them pretty bad with my Boxing. Not saying that this means anything as they don't represent all of HKD. Not sure if they tried what you're suggesting. But I certainly wasn't allowing such as I was throwing at least 30 jabs per 3 minute rounds and pressure fighting them constantly, not allowing them to kick much at all. If it were hard sparring, I would have knocked some of them out.

Yes I'm sure you are very tough and that's awesome, but you really don't understand the concept being discussed as it is about angling, timing, and awareness of the intent of the opponent. It's about action not reaction.

By the way, you are comming off as rather rude at times, and I don't want you to get suspended or banned. I rather like reading what you post even if I don't really agree with the content of it. I suggest toning down some of the snark. You can disagree and make your points without being insulting about it.

 

[Mz1]

The problem is that the gloves and safety gear also change the way techniques work. A simple example is boxing's modern peek-a-boo stance. Makes sense with gloves that help block and protect you. Try it without gloves, and it doesn't work nearly so well...

There are a lot of techniques that work well in sparring, but are unrealistic in a real fight. There are techniques that work great in a formal one-step exercise of paired kata that don't work (or at least not the way they're shown) when you spar.

True, which is why they can go MMA gloves.

Stepping to the side and trying to target someone's arm while they're punching you is just crazy. If this guy thinks he can pull it off against an relatively, equally trained Boxer or MMA, by stepping to the side to avoid the punch, why not just attack him in the temple? That's going to cause a lot more damage than hitting his arm. That is if he punches and leaves his arm extended and suspended like that.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I don't think anyone is advocating stepping to the side at a 90 degree angle. It's a forward step at a 45 degree angle that makes this possible. See, I knew you didn't understand what was being talked about.

 

[Mz1]

Please note that I gave one specific example of a boxing practice that doesn't work well on the street; I most certainly did not say that boxing has no relevance to a street fight. But there are some dangerous habits learned in sport fighting, whether boxing, kickboxing, MMA, wrestling, fencing, or what-have-you, that you have to be aware of if your interest is to transition to real combat. Again, looking solely at modern boxing, you have no throws, very limited targets, limited weapons, no kicking, an opponent who is close to your own size, a fairly clear and safe fighting environment, a ref whose job is to stop things if one fighter is in too much trouble... But, at the same time, you've got guys who can HIT, and who have learned to take a hit and keep going. Wrestlers don't have punches, no joint manipulation, etc. Each combat sport has it's own flaws in comparison to real violence. But that doesn't mean they can't teach you something useful in real violent situations.

What makes Boxing extremely effective in a street fight, vs. multiple opponents, in prison, to the death or whatever is that _IN GENERAL_.....Boxing gyms' average sparring is very brutal in comparison to TMA and even MMA. Especially Boxing gyms in the 'hood. They often spar hard and looking for the KO. I know some people here don't like this phrase, "sparring for KO's". But that's what it is when you're throwing full punches at someone. You're trying to hurt them. And that S hurts. This is what makes Boxing so effective, despite it's limitations to ground fighting, kicks, clinch, knees, elbows, etc.

Not all Boxers in a Boxing gym are fighters, but many are. While there are less fighters in MMA gyms and extremely less in TMA and Self Defense gyms.

What's going to prepare anyone for real H2H combat on the streets? Play fighting with pretend strikes or just light contact, ONLY? Or sparring sometimes light, most times medium (40-50% power), full sparring (50-80% power) often and all out (up to 100%), sometimes? How do you know how good you are if you don't let anyone throw full strikes at you?

On paper, it sounds great...how all of these other deadly MA's train for everything, using all limbs, the ground, etc. But if all you've done is hit pads and play fighting w/o ever taking multiple strikes to the face, body, etc. as standard training....an experienced Boxer with real fights in the ring who's your size and have the same amount of time training as you do in TMA.....is PROBABLY going to destroy you in a fight. Say you spend 5 years training your punches, kicks, elbows, knees, ninja strikes, etc...on pads and only spar by tapping or up to 30% power.....while this Boxer spends 5 years just honing his hand skills + footwork and sparred hundreds of hard rounds for KO's and have been in ring fights....who's more likely going to have the REAL killer instincts?

This is average sparring right here. And it's not even a high level Boxing gym....it's LA Boxing, which is more into fitness. But there are some real Boxers and trainers (Pro and Amateurs) here because the membership fees are incredibly low.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

There's one thing that you said in that (along with implications in other posts)..."ninja strikes" If you care so little about what you're bashing that you call some of the strikes "ninja strikes", how can you argue for or against it? Learn a bit more about TMA's and maybe you'll discover it has more validity then you thought...go to a Kyokushin dojo at some point and tell us that it's all play fighting. Go to a judo or jujitsu dojo and tell us they only work with pads. Get a bit more information before you continue arguing your point. This post is long overdue, but felt I needed to state it.

 

[Mz1]

In a SD situation when you face a committed attacker it is quite easy to perform.

I guess vs. untrained slobs on the streets, it may work. While against trained "cagey guys" = I think you're going to get KO'ed.

Against a cagey guy it is still not as hard as you are making it out to be, but then again I wouldn't fight cagey guy, because if I did it wouldn't be self-defense.

Therefore, your ninja moves are only in theory. While us cagey guys tests out our techniques plenty of times at full speed and power to get good at it and to find out if it works for real or not.

Except with gloves it becomes harder to pull off,

Use MMA gloves then. Or you don't have to use gloves, the MMA or Boxer will though.

and the other guy is more likely to retreat in a cage or ring because he has the space to escape.

I don't I'm going to retreat from a guy who's trying attack my arm that's swinging punches at him. I'll just take the chance and try to knock him out.

It's a self-defense oriented thought, where the attacker's intent and energy is different than in a sport environment.

You are not the final authority on how ALL self defense situations goes down vs. that of a sport environment. Nor can you prove that they both must be different. You just read these theories somewhere and assumed that they're true.

To me, a fight is just a fight. The more I fight over the years, the more I am calm. The more calm and loose I am, the better I usually do.

Like I said before, agaist a cagier guy you would have to strike the elbow in it's resting state. It's a set up to make the opponent give you something back. You wouldn't use it as a counter strike unless it was against a committed attack where the person is not focused on his defense (a.k.a. self-defense).

Like I said, prove it. Just go to a Boxing or MMA gym and ask for some hard sparring and video it for us. Otherwise it's just your theory that it will work. While us "cagier guys" have used to 'ol reliable, "punch them in the face". It's tried and proven.

Yes I'm sure you are very tough and that's awesome,

Thanks, but it wasn't that big a deal. Hapkido guys aren't usually known to be very good with their hands to begin with.

but you really don't understand the concept being discussed as it is about angling, timing, and awareness of the intent of the opponent. It's about action not reaction.

So fighters who fight wouldn't know anything about angling, timing and awareness, etc. but people who don't fight that theorize only, do?

By the way, you are comming off as rather rude at times, and I don't want you to get suspended or banned. I rather like reading what you post even if I don't really agree with the content of it. I suggest toning down some of the snark. You can disagree and make your points without being insulting about it.

Where was I being insulting?

 

[elder999]

Hey all, the goal of this post is to provide one suggestion, or belief as a tenant toward fighting/sparring/self-defense. .

Keep your knife sharp.

 

[frank raud]

What makes Boxing extremely effective in a street fight, vs. multiple opponents, in prison, to the death or whatever is that _IN GENERAL_.....Boxing gyms' average sparring is very brutal in comparison to TMA and even MMA. Especially Boxing gyms in the 'hood. They often spar hard and looking for the KO. I know some people here don't like this phrase, "sparring for KO's". But that's what it is when you're throwing full punches at someone. You're trying to hurt them. And that S hurts. This is what makes Boxing so effective, despite it's limitations to ground fighting, kicks, clinch, knees, elbows, etc.

James Toney vs Randy Couture. Boxers dont always win. Oddly enough in most style vs style fights that I am aware of, the boxer does not win. Against an untrained fighter, the boxer has an obvious advantage.

Gene Lebell vs Milo Savage.

Another example. Boxers have amazing punching power, but the limitations of the art to only striking can work against it.

 

[Kframe]

I dont have much time, but i want to mention some thoughts. I agree with Mz1 a little bit, as does my coach. My coach has plenty of TMA experiance, but moved on for the very thing mz1 is talking about. He wanted to apply his training in a realistic approach. Part of the problem with TMA in his opinion and mine is the sparring and theory craft. Before i settled on where im at now, i bounced around a few tma places and the sparring was rediculous. The martialartists didnt even look like there style, sure they all did there kata well and the line drills and the air strikes well, but the moment they started trying to do there sparring they looked like poorly trained kick boxers. Nothing from what they were doing was recognizeable. They looked as if they never actually trained pressure into there movements, as in doing them correctly against pressure of a moving resisting opponent. My own sparring vs a tkd bb bore this out for me as well.

The tma need to get smarter about there sparring. No more hands down on your hips stance crap, actualy use a viable fight stance. They need to focus on doing there moves correctly with increasing lvls of pressure, which from my experiance and my coaches is absent. Now i dont think you should be ko sparring thats stupid, but 60-70% sparring would be amazing for any martial artist to refine there skill set, and it tests your endurance. Fighting is hard lol.

There are a lot of viable fighting technique in the tma, but its method of training is so convoluted that it takes years to understand it. Watching the progression of others from white to black and beyond its amazing. They learn one thing from white to black then its like ok, everything we tuaght you was wrong so now that your black learn it the correct way. WTF is that, why not just teach the fight applicable stuff right from the begining. In boxing and in mma the first things i was tuaght were how to stand and hold my hands and how to throw the most important puches ill ever know, the left and right.

Tma need to stop burying the fight applicable stuff in complicated and convoluted training methodology and just start practicing the real moves and techniques more often then the fight dance tma styles seem to love doing and watching.

Not trying to pick on anything, my schools combatives programs striking skill set is very heavily Epak kenpo. Just with out the kata, the line drills, and air strikes. If we want to learn a combination or practice a block or defense, coach walks us through the movements while using real attacks against us. Its amazing, i love every minute of what im doing.. It feels real..

Again, i think the TMA have some VERY valid fighting technique in them, I just feel that they need to stop being mired in outdated and in efficent training methods.. Just train the real and correct way to fight..

 

[Cirdan]

Again, i think the TMA have some VERY valid fighting technique in them, I just feel that they need to stop being mired in outdated and in efficent training methods.. Just train the real and correct way to fight..

It works for me.

 

[oaktree]

This thread has gotten way off topic into yet another
SPORT VERUS STREET AND MMA VERSUS TMA.
sport martial arts are designed for a sport match with RULES.
MMA has its own approach to training and reason.
TMA has its own approach and training.
If YOU don't feel one is the right approach to you move on.
If you disagree with a technique because in your frame of
Reference and lack of a paradigm shift then that'd fine too.
But the constant need to show how much of an alpha male you are
And the belittling of other approaches shows a lack of mental maturity.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Wow... at the end of the Gene Lebell video, he chokes a kid out and pours water on the kids crotch so the kid would think he pissed himself.

 

[Mz1]

There's one thing that you said in that (along with implications in other posts)..."ninja strikes" If you care so little about what you're bashing that you call some of the strikes "ninja strikes", how can you argue for or against it?

That's more in the line of friendly ribbing really. Similar to when those who thinks that Boxing and MMA techniques such as elbowing someone in the face really hard, can't possibly work in the streets and calls us "cagey guys", sports fighter, etc.

Learn a bit more about TMA's and maybe you'll discover it has more validity then you thought...go to a Kyokushin dojo at some point and tell us that it's all play fighting. Go to a judo or jujitsu dojo and tell us they only work with pads. Get a bit more information before you continue arguing your point. This post is long overdue, but felt I needed to state it.

That's one of my hobbies actually. I like going to different gyms to spar, including TMA ones. And I've trained plenty of traditional Jujutsu. Also, your info is wrong about Judo being TMA. Judo is the sports version of Jujutsu. It's almost what MMA is today when created by Kano. It may be perceived by yourself as being traditional, only because it's been around a long time.