High/Low Percentage

[MJS]

Numerous times on forums, when the discussion is focused on techniques, the subject of high and low percentage moves comes into play. This usually means a move/technique that either has a very good chance of working or a very low chance of working.

But I find it interesting that many things are put into the low category by people and it seems only a select few moves are used by the same group. People tend to think that only 'those' techniques will actually stand any chance of actually working.

So, my question is...who determines what works and what doesn't? You could have 2 techs. for example and 10 people. Each person does the techs. and reports their success with them. So you could end up with 8 people preferring tech. 1 and 2 people liking tech 2. Those 2 people had a difficult time with tech 1, so they remove it and stick to move 2. Now, take 10 other people. The results may vary. Take 10 more and again, you'll probably have varying results. It strikes me odd, that people would speak for every person out there.

So, what determines, in your opinion, a low/high percentage move? Should moves be removed because you can't make them work, yet someone else can?

 

[Shotochem]

That depends on:

a) which tech the person can do better and more effectively.

b) the situation in which you have to defend yourself. Were you grabbed from behind, did you see it coming ect...

c) the size and build of the attacker. I would think twice about punching a very large strong individual in the stomach and expect them to go dowm ect....

d) terrain. Where are you? Is it dark? Ice on the ground? Crowded area? You may be limited due to your surroundings.

I go by the philosophy of use what ever you can and if it misses of don't work, keep going. I'll throw anything at anybody the kitchen sink included, if I feel I am in serious danger. I strike with whichever limb or appendage is closest and just keep flowing and following through until the situation is in control.

IMO, I think all techniques can be effective if applied properly and in the right situation. The key is to find out what works for you personally, hone it, refine it and hopefully you wont have to use it.

-Marc-

 

[KempoGuy06]

That depends on:

a) which tech the person can do better and more effectively.

b) the situation in which you have to defend yourself. Were you grabbed from behind, did you see it coming ect...

c) the size and build of the attacker. I would think twice about punching a very large strong individual in the stomach and expect them to go dowm ect....

d) terrain. Where are you? Is it dark? Ice on the ground? Crowded area? You may be limited due to your surroundings.

I go by the philosophy of use what ever you can and if it misses of don't work, keep going. I'll throw anything at anybody the kitchen sink included, if I feel I am in serious danger. I strike with whichever limb or appendage is closest and just keep flowing and following through until the situation is in control.

IMO, I think all techniques can be effective if applied properly and in the right situation. The key is to find out what works for you personally, hone it, refine it and hopefully you wont have to use it.

-Marc-

I agree with this.

It all depends on the variable...and there are lots of variables. Im a big guy and not very fast so Im not going to use a tech that requires me to move around a lot or perform a lot of stuff in quick secession. I will however do techs that keep me rooted and play to my advantage. Im not saying the other ones wont work Im just telling you what would be more comfortable to me and what I feel i can pull off easiest

B

 

[thardey]

Are you talking about the teaching perspective, or the learning perspective?

As a teacher, my first priority is to teach the "higher percentage moves" - you could say that those were the ones that consistently were favored over several groups of your ten people. From this perspective, I'm reminded of a saying that my dad used to attribute to Knute Rockney -- basically along the lines of "If you run the basic plays better than your opponent, you will win. Forget the fancy plays."

I would say the "basic plays" of M.A. are the ones that don't require a delicate balance, fine motor skills, specific targeting of areas less than 2 inches, and a high risk of hurting yourself by a mistake in your technique. That leaves basically low kicks, punches to the body, and open-hand strikes to bony areas (mostly the face.) From there you have years worth of practice to learn to do those "better than the other guy."

But it's always nice to have those double reverse plays up your sleeve. And where most everybody has learned the basic moves, there are so many "low percentage moves" out there, that odds are that very few, if any, people know the counters to all of them. On the surface, a double, or triple reverse play in football isn't a particularly strong play, or you would see it more often. It's strength lies in the idea of catching your opponent off guard. Even if it comes out as a wash, now you're opponent has to be sure he doesn't get caught again, so he can't commit to defending the "basic attacks," as well as before. Now your basic attacks are more effective.

So from a student perspective, I want to learn as many of the "low-percentage moves" that I can, as well as how to counter them. For me, those include a variation of spinning kicks, combination kicks, sticky-hands, throws, locks, etc. Those are used when the "basic stuff" isn't working. If he can run the "basic plays" better than I can (maybe he's faster, bigger, or stronger), then I have some surprise stuff to fall back on, and hope to keep him wondering what is coming.

If I'm winning the "basics" game, then I can expect him to start trying unusual stuff. The more I am familiar with it, the easier I can counter it, and get back to the basic stuff.

 

[still learning]

Hello, In martial arts...unlimited what to do?

To block a right hand punch...will always be "what is the situtions?)

Sometime a hard block, a parry block, deflective block, or up or downward,inside, outside block, can be we hands,arms,legs or body? (best NOT to use face? for blocking.)..ducking, backing away, and so on...NO limits and combintions of them all...

What is the best high/low percentage here? ...my guess is 80% (huh?)

So how does one determines the best course of actions? ....depends, how you train too! Karate like the hard blocks..kung-fu..softer or push away blocks....

Best to learn all you can...and take what works best for you....what works for you? may not work for others...and each situtions will be different requirements?

So the answer is? ....take the highs and learn the lows and everything in between.

How can one learn only highs ..and when do the high become the middle...and where do the lows begin?

Aloha ( High to you all) ....stay low when you need too!

PS: the bills are high...the savings is low....what do I do? ....work towards the middle?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Numerous times on forums, when the discussion is focused on techniques, the subject of high and low percentage moves comes into play. This usually means a move/technique that either has a very good chance of working or a very low chance of working.

But I find it interesting that many things are put into the low category by people and it seems only a select few moves are used by the same group. People tend to think that only 'those' techniques will actually stand any chance of actually working.

So, my question is...who determines what works and what doesn't? You could have 2 techs. for example and 10 people. Each person does the techs. and reports their success with them. So you could end up with 8 people preferring tech. 1 and 2 people liking tech 2. Those 2 people had a difficult time with tech 1, so they remove it and stick to move 2. Now, take 10 other people. The results may vary. Take 10 more and again, you'll probably have varying results. It strikes me odd, that people would speak for every person out there.

So, what determines, in your opinion, a low/high percentage move? Should moves be removed because you can't make them work, yet someone else can?

Gross motor skill versus fine motor skill

Skill level of the person also determines the level of their basics that they do instinctively, versus forcing it out of thought.

 

[MJS]

That depends on:

a) which tech the person can do better and more effectively.

b) the situation in which you have to defend yourself. Were you grabbed from behind, did you see it coming ect...

c) the size and build of the attacker. I would think twice about punching a very large strong individual in the stomach and expect them to go dowm ect....

d) terrain. Where are you? Is it dark? Ice on the ground? Crowded area? You may be limited due to your surroundings.

I go by the philosophy of use what ever you can and if it misses of don't work, keep going. I'll throw anything at anybody the kitchen sink included, if I feel I am in serious danger. I strike with whichever limb or appendage is closest and just keep flowing and following through until the situation is in control.

IMO, I think all techniques can be effective if applied properly and in the right situation. The key is to find out what works for you personally, hone it, refine it and hopefully you wont have to use it.

-Marc-

Good points. My point of this thread is that while we all have things that work better for us than some others, we don't necessarily discard those things that we have a difficult time with. For example...there are techs. in Kenpo that if I had the choice of doing that particular move or another, I'd choose the other. However, I still teach that difficult move to others, as someone else may not have a hard time.

Now, what I'm about to say next is not intended as taking a shot at a particular group, but it applies best seeing that they are the ones that say it the most. Some people tend to say that if it doesnt work in the ring, then its useless. So, you could have, say, 10 moves that to you, are high percentage, but what about me? Maybe out of those 10, 5 work best for me, and I have 5 others that I changed out because, again...they didn't work for me. If your eyes they may not be high, but in mine they are.

Did that make sense? Sorry for the long ramble.

 

[MJS]

Are you talking about the teaching perspective, or the learning perspective?

As a teacher, my first priority is to teach the "higher percentage moves" - you could say that those were the ones that consistently were favored over several groups of your ten people. From this perspective, I'm reminded of a saying that my dad used to attribute to Knute Rockney -- basically along the lines of "If you run the basic plays better than your opponent, you will win. Forget the fancy plays."

I would say the "basic plays" of M.A. are the ones that don't require a delicate balance, fine motor skills, specific targeting of areas less than 2 inches, and a high risk of hurting yourself by a mistake in your technique. That leaves basically low kicks, punches to the body, and open-hand strikes to bony areas (mostly the face.) From there you have years worth of practice to learn to do those "better than the other guy."

But it's always nice to have those double reverse plays up your sleeve. And where most everybody has learned the basic moves, there are so many "low percentage moves" out there, that odds are that very few, if any, people know the counters to all of them. On the surface, a double, or triple reverse play in football isn't a particularly strong play, or you would see it more often. It's strength lies in the idea of catching your opponent off guard. Even if it comes out as a wash, now you're opponent has to be sure he doesn't get caught again, so he can't commit to defending the "basic attacks," as well as before. Now your basic attacks are more effective.

So from a student perspective, I want to learn as many of the "low-percentage moves" that I can, as well as how to counter them. For me, those include a variation of spinning kicks, combination kicks, sticky-hands, throws, locks, etc. Those are used when the "basic stuff" isn't working. If he can run the "basic plays" better than I can (maybe he's faster, bigger, or stronger), then I have some surprise stuff to fall back on, and hope to keep him wondering what is coming.

If I'm winning the "basics" game, then I can expect him to start trying unusual stuff. The more I am familiar with it, the easier I can counter it, and get back to the basic stuff.

More great points! As I said in my other post, it seems that many times people view a particular set of moves as the end all be all of what is/is not going to work. My point is that its impossible to say that those moves will work for everyone, considering we're all different.

Like you said in your last paragraph...learn it all, and pull out what you need at the time.

 

[punisher73]

I think it is what works best for you, AND the time that you have spent making the technique your own.

If you ONLY stick to "high" percentage moves you are limiting your response to various situations. You should train your moves to make them "high percentage" for yourself and then start adding to that base with other moves.

I remember a long time ago, Rickson Gracie was in a fight and the guy tries to shoot in on him. "High" percentage move would be to sprawl on the shoot and some only practice that. Rickson was of such a high level of skill and understanding that he literally does a forward roll over the guy's back (I wish I still had the clip or the opponent to reference). Could someone else be able to do that, probably very few so it would make it a "low" percentage move but if he had only stuck to a sprawl he would not have been able to expand his response base to respond to a situation like that with a move that put him in a better position.

Also, the fine motor skill vs. gross motor skill is often quoted, but not always followed through to it's conclusion. Yes, fine motor skills degrade as hearrate/arousal increases. BUT, they have also found that even fine motor skills do NOT degrade when the activity has been moved to a subconsicous level of "thought" through training so you don't have to think about what needs to be done it just happens.

 

[charyuop]

I make it very simple as it is in my head.
_What dictate what tech to use: your opponent and your instinct (and most of the time your instinct is lead by the position of your body, on which leg your weight is, the possibility to move on one direction instead of another...an so on).
_Who decides what tech works and what not: the practitioners themselves and no one else. According to how comfortable you are with that tech, the tech itself will work or not.

 

[JBrainard]

So, what determines, in your opinion, a low/high percentage move? Should moves be removed because you can't make them work, yet someone else can?

Low percentage move: Something that doesn't come naturaly to you and only works in very specific situations.
High percentage move: Something that comes naturally to you and will be usefull against the type of fighter you will most often encounter.
Should moves be removed? Absolutely not. What works for one person may work great for another. Plus, in a self defense situation, you have no idea what kind of fighter you are up against (street fighter, grappler, boxer... etc.) You need to train for all posible scenerios and what comes out of you durring a situation will be what works best for you. If it doesn't work for the situation, throw it away (in the fight) and "hit" from another angle.

 

[thardey]

Also, the fine motor skill vs. gross motor skill is often quoted, but not always followed through to it's conclusion. Yes, fine motor skills degrade as hearrate/arousal increases. BUT, they have also found that even fine motor skills do NOT degrade when the activity has been moved to a subconsicous level of "thought" through training so you don't have to think about what needs to be done it just happens.

Give the man a cigar! Very good point.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Give the man a cigar! Very good point.

The point (about fine motor skills) is fairly obvious to someone who has ever been in a performance situation.. The first time you do it, the stress is pretty high and it affects your precision to the fine details. After a while though the stress of the situation does not weigh on you so you just do it. Two ways to lower the stress are to practice until it's automatic and to put yourself into stressful situations

 

[thardey]

The point (about fine motor skills) is fairly obvious to someone who has ever been in a performance situation.. The first time you do it, the stress is pretty high and it affects your precision to the fine details. After a while though the stress of the situation does not weigh on you so you just do it. Two ways to lower the stress are to practice until it's automatic and to put yourself into stressful situations

Good point, I used to do a lot of sleight-of-hand magic tricks. Talk about fine motor skills! The key do do them thousands of times, until you would find yourself doing them without realizing it. Then the stress of performing while not getting caught didn't affect it so much. I still always got a hard *THUMP* from my heart just as I pulled the trick, but I learned to cover that with patter.

On the other hand, something that Blackstone and Houdini warned about was the tendency to learn ever trickier maneuvers, but the final trick appeared the same. You want to go for the simplest trick to get the desired illusion.

For MA, I think "Gross motor skills" and "fine motor skills" are to broad of a distinction. Manipulating coins and cards involves fine motor skill. Manipulating the Magazine and slide of a gun are not. Throwing a "basic" punch correctly is generally considered a gross motor skill, yet it is a collection of many fine skills.

That's where I also consider the amount and sequence of detail required. If I have to do five things in sequence for a tech to work, that will be hard to do under stress. If I forget, or screw up one, the tech is useless. However, if I can to the five things in basically any order, or at the same time, then I have some room to fix mistakes.

I'm thinking of some judo-like throws. Some require 2 or 3 moves in sequence - useful, but it takes a lot of practice. Some require 4 "conditions" to be met (foot position, hip positon, control of the head, etc.), but the sequence isn't that critical. Also useful, but still required a lot of practice. Then there are a couple that are almost like a short kata, if one part of the sequence is lost, then you're done, and often in a high-risk position.

That's why I like my Glock - simple to operate, and relatively low-risk (for a gun.)

Another thought just occurred to me, though. Over time and practice, what used to be a four-step sequence (like a proper round kick -- raise leg, kick out, recoil, down) is now only one step in my mind (step one: round kick). I think that's where the practice comes in.

Right now I'm working on the draw for my gun, for the moment, it's still a Three-step sequence. Over time it will be a one-step sequence. As a three step sequence, I don't trust it for self-defense. But when it becomes only one action, then I will trust it a lot more.

Practice, practice practice!

 

[Kacey]

So, what determines, in your opinion, a low/high percentage move? Should moves be removed because you can't make them work, yet someone else can?

Speaking as a student, there are moves I don't do well (my low percentage moves), that I have difficulty with, and don't think of in high stress situations - those are the things I have to force myself to work on, or they don't improve; the high percentage techniques, the ones that work best for me, are the easiest ones to train, because they are the least difficult and frustrating.

Speaking as a training partner, the moves I don't do well are different than my partner's, and I have to train my own low percentage techniques as well as my partner's - or we'll sit there trading high percentage techniques at each other and won't ever improve our low percentage techniques, limiting our options. Also, since our highs and lows are different, we have to choose techniques other than our own highs to counter the other's highs, as we learn what the other likes and what works, so that expands our "highs".

Speaking as an instructor, it is my responsibility to learn everything as well as I can, and to be able to explain everything as many ways as possible, so that I can instruct my students - because each one is an individual, and has his/her own high and low percentage techniques, and although many of them may share high and low percentage techniques in common, no two of them have exactly the same highs and lows.

 

[Sanchin-J]

I knew a student in Ninjutsu I used to train with that had a heck of a time with a few techniques, but he was great with others, especially leg work and kicks. However, it was important that he train in all that he was taught because at some point it all would come together and form the overall picture. Its more or less my opinion that you should make every effort to continue to train in all the techniques as they all have a place and are being taught for reasons. I had just had a discussion about this when I saw this thread, and some of the things we discussed was how important it was to work on the techniques you find less effective, and to get your body to remember them, even if you don't have an overly great form with the technique your using, once your body remembers it, it can help you out in times of need.

Speaking of which, GOD am I SORE.. I recently returned to Sanchin-Ryu karate, and spent the majority of my day and evening going through the basics, CBAs, and first form while alternating between right and left lead leg and hand. Surprised me just how much work I need using my left leg and arm heh.

 

[MJS]

I think it is what works best for you, AND the time that you have spent making the technique your own.

If you ONLY stick to "high" percentage moves you are limiting your response to various situations. You should train your moves to make them "high percentage" for yourself and then start adding to that base with other moves.

I remember a long time ago, Rickson Gracie was in a fight and the guy tries to shoot in on him. "High" percentage move would be to sprawl on the shoot and some only practice that. Rickson was of such a high level of skill and understanding that he literally does a forward roll over the guy's back (I wish I still had the clip or the opponent to reference). Could someone else be able to do that, probably very few so it would make it a "low" percentage move but if he had only stuck to a sprawl he would not have been able to expand his response base to respond to a situation like that with a move that put him in a better position.

Also, the fine motor skill vs. gross motor skill is often quoted, but not always followed through to it's conclusion. Yes, fine motor skills degrade as hearrate/arousal increases. BUT, they have also found that even fine motor skills do NOT degrade when the activity has been moved to a subconsicous level of "thought" through training so you don't have to think about what needs to be done it just happens.

Great post!! This hit the nail on the head with the point I'm trying to make. You have a move that is the norm (the sprawl) for 99.99% of shoots, and anything else is most likely viewed as a low percentage, yet this roll that Rickson did is apparently a valid move.

This is the point that I try to make with certain diehards that think that one way is the way, yet if you look deeper, which apparently certain people are not, they'd see that perhaps its them thats having a hard time doing anything else, so assuming there is only 1 way is all they know.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Great post!! This hit the nail on the head with the point I'm trying to make. You have a move that is the norm (the sprawl) for 99.99% of shoots, and anything else is most likely viewed as a low percentage, yet this roll that Rickson did is apparently a valid move.

This is the point that I try to make with certain diehards that think that one way is the way, yet if you look deeper, which apparently certain people are not, they'd see that perhaps its them thats having a hard time doing anything else, so assuming there is only 1 way is all they know.

Hey MJS there simply are no absolutes. What works for someone else might not work for you. However, if you practice that technique a bit, it might help you defend against it and not be surprised in the moment. Be flexible mentally and physically and you have a great recipe for success.

I would also agree with the Punisher73 in that fine motor skills are typically affected but over time the more you are used to stress the less they are and once your training becomes instinctive and a part of your subconscious your fine motor skills may not be affected at all. My experience arresting people the first few times was difficult particularly with manipulating the handcuffs. Later on I did not even notice and just performed some fine motor skills without thought and had no issues at all.

Still having said that having excellent gross motor skills is sooooooooooooo important!