You WILL get cut if someone has a knife. I disagree....

[Buka]

IMO, if a dojo teaches defense against a knife, they first have to teach how to fight with a knife.

If a dojo teaches disarms against a firearm, they first have to have the students in question become trained in the use of firearms.

It doesn't make any sense to me to do it any other way other than making the students think they're learning something when they aren't.

 

[drop bear]

IMO, if a dojo teaches defense against a knife, they first have to teach how to fight with a knife.

If a dojo teaches disarms against a firearm, they first have to have the students in question become trained in the use of firearms.

It doesn't make any sense to me to do it any other way other than making the students think they're learning something when they aren't.

You don't think there are transferable concepts?

I did a lot of weapon defence by denying access to that weapon. Which doesn't take a lot of weapon fighting skill.

 

[Buka]

You don't think there are transferable concepts?

I did a lot of weapon defence by denying access to that weapon. Which doesn't take a lot of weapon fighting skill.

I don't fully understand what you mean by transferable concepts. (I'm sometimes slow on the uptake)

Denying access to the weapon is the best way to go. It's when the weapon is already in hand when you realize "uh oh" that it starts to get tricky. And dangerous.

I had a friendly relationship with a guy who ran a dojo not too far from ours. I knew he taught gun disarms to his high ranking guys. We were having the firearms instructor from Boston PD coming down to teach a three night safety class, which would be followed the next week by everyone going to an outdoor range to shoot twenty five different weapons over a two day period. Everything from target shooting to fast drawing to firing and shooting on the run.

I invited the guy, told him to bring his high ranking guys and I'd pay for them all, no charge for them. Same thing for the range - have them take the safety course, then come to the range for two nights.

He declines, saying (I paraphrase) "Oh, I don't want them to actually touch a firearm. I just want to teach them what my instructor taught me."

I still do a face palm when I think about it. Teach weapons disarming but don't let them actually touch a weapon or know the first thing about one. Yeah, that's a real nifty idea.

 

[isshinryuronin]

IMO, if a dojo teaches defense against a knife, they first have to teach how to fight with a knife.

Why? Please elaborate.

 

[drop bear]

I don't fully understand what you mean by transferable concepts. (I'm sometimes slow on the uptake)

Denying access to the weapon is the best way to go. It's when the weapon is already in hand when you realize "uh oh" that it starts to get tricky. And dangerous.

I had a friendly relationship with a guy who ran a dojo not too far from ours. I knew he taught gun disarms to his high ranking guys. We were having the firearms instructor from Boston PD coming down to teach a three night safety class, which would be followed the next week by everyone going to an outdoor range to shoot twenty five different weapons over a two day period. Everything from target shooting to fast drawing to firing and shooting on the run.

I invited the guy, told him to bring his high ranking guys and I'd pay for them all, no charge for them. Same thing for the range - have them take the safety course, then come to the range for two nights.

He declines, saying (I paraphrase) "Oh, I don't want them to actually touch a firearm. I just want to teach them what my instructor taught me."

I still do a face palm when I think about it. Teach weapons disarming but don't let them actually touch a weapon or know the first thing about one. Yeah, that's a real nifty idea.

If you can deny them access to that gun. They can't shoot it.

This is not a problem solved by good gun knowledge. It is a problem solved by good grappling.

Putting gun disarms in the hands of gun people is kind of putting the expertise in the wrong place.

Should this be a binary option.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Buka said:
IMO, if a dojo teaches defense against a knife, they first have to teach how to fight with a knife.

If a dojo teaches disarms against a firearm, they first have to have the students in question become trained in the use of firearms.

It doesn't make any sense to me to do it any other way other than making the students think they're learning something when they aren't.

You don't think there are transferable concepts?

I did a lot of weapon defence by denying access to that weapon. Which doesn't take a lot of weapon fighting skill.

I have actually found it counter productive to teach knife fighting before some basic self defense.
If you come at them with the maximum timing and technique they walk away frustrated and or discouraged.

And to avoid false confidence even while learning the basics, one can do a slightly advanced technique or timing to let them know they have work to do before they should actually think or attempt it.

 

[Buka]

Why? Please elaborate.

Sure, let me write something up and I'll be back. (apologies to The Terminator)

 

[Buka]

Why? Please elaborate.

I remember the first time I saw a Martial knife defense demonstrated, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. I couldn’t wait to get to that part of my training.

The first knife defense my (then) Instructor showed our class was against a low stab to the abdomen. We expertly X blocked it with both our crossed wrists. Which then allowed us to turn those crossed wrists into a nifty repositioned wrist lock and place our attacker into a chicken wing, or with a circular step, to put him on the ground. Oh, man, it was just so cool.

The fact that our partner, the attacker, stayed frozen in place so we could master the technique, wasn’t noticed by us. The attacker was ours, we owned him and his futile attack, we were, after all, Karate men. And our teacher ran a Karate school. You can’t very well run a Karate school without being the know all and end all of all things self defense. Including against the dreaded knife attack.

The next one we did was against the overhead, downward stab. We stepped in with our classic rising block. It was part of our basic eight point blocking system. We blocked that forearm, the one propelling that knife down. Our other arm immediately came up and entwined that attacking arm. Put it into an elbow lock and took down the attacker, who we then controlled. It wasn’t too difficult, he again stayed frozen in place since that downward stab was initially blocked.

If I may switch away for a second…..when I was in training as a rookie cop there were several films we had to watch. One was called “Edged Weapons.” It was actual footage of both knife attacks and a few people with mental health problems brutalizing themselves with edged weapons. The video quality was good for that era, and it was of the most unsettling things I have ever seen to this day. The video has long since been removed from any police training that I know of. It wasn’t for learning about how to defend against edged weapons, but rather to show us how dangerous they were.

Getting back to my original thoughts - I trained harder than anyone else in my dojo. I never missed a class, not one, for many years. I always came early and stayed late, it’s what I wanted to do and knew it was going to be doing it for a long time. I would practice those knife defenses even if there wasn’t anybody else there yet. I’d just do it against an imaginary attacker carrying the imaginary knife and do it against the air. I gotta tell ya, I was one hell of an imaginary Karate man.

That first instructor of mine had zero experience in anything having to do with actual fighting. But he told us differently. And we believed him.

If I had been fortunate enough to train, or even watch, real deal knife training I would have immediately known what we were being taught, and practicing, was the equivalent of what I call dojo suicide via instructor.

The first time I saw and experienced proper knife training, it took all of two minutes for me to shake my head and mutter to myself, "good Holy God what manner of B.S have we been doing?”

There are a lot of variables with knife defense. But they’re all fairly basic…..once you see the knife, that is. Not seeing it is another matter entirely. But if the enemy has a knife it’s either in his right hand or left hand. That hand might be his front hand at the time or his back hand. But even still there’s only so many angles the knife can come from, and only so many lines it can travel on it’s way to you. And that’s regardless of what grip the attacker is employing.

I have no idea how to disarm a man with a knife if I don’t have one as well. Sure, I can go through the motions, and maybe some times I’ll get lucky in training, but most times not. It’s one of the reasons I always have an easily accessible knife, been carrying one for a long time, on duty or off, regardless of what clothes I’m wearing or even if I’m in the water at the beach, the knife is always there.

Once you do some good knife training it’s a lot simpler than you would think. The angles become easy to read, regardless of any other factor. Your footwork is easier than say the footwork in boxing, a lot easier.

But the thing you’ll start to realize very quickly is - countering with your own edged weapon, especially against their knife hand, becomes a walk in the park. Honest.

If you’re training self defense moves against the knife when you don’t have one, you’ll still have to experience the angles used by people wielding a knife. Be them the classic prison sewing needle attack, or wide sweeping slashes. Be them by a trained knife fighter or a crazy street thug.

Firearms - if an instructor is teaching any kind of handgun disarming without first having students learn all about firearms and actually shooting different kinds of firearms under qualified shooting instructors (NOT just target shooting)
It’s, at least to me, the equivalent of teaching someone how to ride a motorcycle by training them on a stationary bicycle and assuming they’ll be okay if they ever have to drive a motorcycle in an emergency. Probably not a good idea.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Sure, let me write something up and I'll be back. (apologies to The Terminator)

The terminator as in the ".' or the quote "I'll be bach" ?
I am looking forward to reading your reply. Perspectives of others can provide insights.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hi Buka,

I like your post. Thank you for taking the time. I appreciate it.
I agree with some of your points, and I would like to say some of the "bad" training could have been saved or beneficial if done differently.

I remember the first time I saw a Martial knife defense demonstrated, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. I couldn’t wait to get to that part of my training.

It was cool I remember as well. I saw them in the mall years before I was able to train.

The first knife defense my (then) Instructor showed our class was against a low stab to the abdomen. We expertly X blocked it with both our crossed wrists. Which then allowed us to turn those crossed wrists into a nifty repositioned wrist lock and place our attacker into a chicken wing, or with a circular step, to put him on the ground. Oh, man, it was just so cool.

Yes, I have seen this as well (And it can be cool learning). And I acknowledge this is not best or bad for many if not all.
The Hard X gives too much resistance and feedback to the opponent.

I teach something very similar and it is for footwork and hand position .

if they stab the abdomen with the right hand, and you step left about 45 degree offline, and have your right hand come down and camber their thrust off line, you have only exposed your outside of one arm. This leaves the left available for counter attacks or for the awesome disarm as you stated.
After it is cam'd offline the left then falls on top and then the wrist lock to throw can happen with two hands.
They step back out. This creates space as well.
The point for that drill is not the Disarm (for me and my students) , The point is the step and deflect offline. Create some space.

Similar idea if one steps left with the same right arm stab. Different locks and also puts you closer to their off hand those possible strikes.

The fact that our partner, the attacker, stayed frozen in place so we could master the technique, wasn’t noticed by us. The attacker was ours, we owned him and his futile attack, we were, after all, Karate men. And our teacher ran a Karate school. You can’t very well run a Karate school without being the know all and end all of all things self defense. Including against the dreaded knife attack.

I hear what you are explaining here.

The next one we did was against the overhead, downward stab. We stepped in with our classic rising block. It was part of our basic eight point blocking system. We blocked that forearm, the one propelling that knife down. Our other arm immediately came up and entwined that attacking arm. Put it into an elbow lock and took down the attacker, who we then controlled. It wasn’t too difficult, he again stayed frozen in place since that downward stab was initially blocked.

This one I call the OMG Block he is stabbing / striking down at me.
Left hand comes up as you step right foot forward or left foot backward to help create the cross body frame.
Once contact is made then parry it down and step back with the right leg.
If the Ice pick grip then the blade can drag across the back of your arm. And then sometimes if done right be disarmed.
Still not trying to say the point is the disarm.
Step and block then step back and create space. If in position to follow up do so.

Similar tactics for the rest of the obvious strikes.
It is about the distancing and passing / flowing and not being rigid and stationary.

If I may switch away for a second…..when I was in training as a rookie cop there were several films we had to watch. One was called “Edged Weapons.” It was actual footage of both knife attacks and a few people with mental health problems brutalizing themselves with edged weapons. The video quality was good for that era, and it was of the most unsettling things I have ever seen to this day. The video has long since been removed from any police training that I know of. It wasn’t for learning about how to defend against edged weapons, but rather to show us how dangerous they were.

If it was this film I have seen a similar film. Yes, if not ready for it it can be an issue for some.

Getting back to my original thoughts - I trained harder than anyone else in my dojo. I never missed a class, not one, for many years. I always came early and stayed late, it’s what I wanted to do and knew it was going to be doing it for a long time. I would practice those knife defenses even if there wasn’t anybody else there yet. I’d just do it against an imaginary attacker carrying the imaginary knife and do it against the air. I gotta tell ya, I was one hell of an imaginary Karate man.

And I think highly of you for your dedication to your training. It might not have been what you wanted in the end, yet, I respect the mindset you had going in. To train and to train hard.

That first instructor of mine had zero experience in anything having to do with actual fighting. But he told us differently. And we believed him.

Experience is good and it taught by someone with experience and they they teach it without any real experience it can be learned, yet I agree it is very theoretical .
This type of training needs to be refreshed at least ever other generation of student if not each.

If I had been fortunate enough to train, or even watch, real deal knife training I would have immediately known what we were being taught, and practicing, was the equivalent of what I call dojo suicide via instructor.

I had seen some, by untrained people.
I was also lucky when I started that the instructor would play / test after we learned the single or basic and then see if they moved as you moved what would happen. This helped a lot.

The first time I saw and experienced proper knife training, it took all of two minutes for me to shake my head and mutter to myself, "good Holy God what manner of B.S have we been doing?”

You recognized it and dealt with it. I respect that.

There are a lot of variables with knife defense. But they’re all fairly basic…..once you see the knife, that is. Not seeing it is another matter entirely. But if the enemy has a knife it’s either in his right hand or left hand. That hand might be his front hand at the time or his back hand. But even still there’s only so many angles the knife can come from, and only so many lines it can travel on it’s way to you. And that’s regardless of what grip the attacker is employing.

Yes, the assassination (unseen knife) is really hard to stop.
Yes there are so many lines.
And this is why I want some basics for defense for movement and space. and pivot/ parry / pass no hard stationary blocking.
I also have seen when some others taught it early it look liked they just painted with the blade. While the edge dragging can cut, it is not as effective.
On the side the beginners are learning some stick patterns and striking styles.
These styles also apply to edge.
This stops the total beginners walking in and just learning how to go kill people and leave.
I can get a feel for them and learn and trust them.

Later I show them the bladed connection and they make lots of progress, very similar in technique you list below.

I have no idea how to disarm a man with a knife if I don’t have one as well. Sure, I can go through the motions, and maybe some times I’ll get lucky in training, but most times not. It’s one of the reasons I always have an easily accessible knife, been carrying one for a long time, on duty or off, regardless of what clothes I’m wearing or even if I’m in the water at the beach, the knife is always there.

I like your preparedness.

Once you do some good knife training it’s a lot simpler than you would think. The angles become easy to read, regardless of any other factor. Your footwork is easier than say the footwork in boxing, a lot easier.

This is where those striking styles come in and now the student is not just painting with the flat of the blade they are using the edge and point.
They are should be using the basics discussed above about stepping and creating space.
The use of the hand without the weapon to parry , which could be a cross body parry. A lot more difficult than an outside one, especially for beginners.
So here is where we align and I agree
While Above I think it was just your experience and I respect that it was different.

But the thing you’ll start to realize very quickly is - countering with your own edged weapon, especially against their knife hand, becomes a walk in the park. Honest.

Yes it does.

If you’re training self defense moves against the knife when you don’t have one, you’ll still have to experience the angles used by people wielding a knife. Be them the classic prison sewing needle attack, or wide sweeping slashes. Be them by a trained knife fighter or a crazy street thug.

Yes Sir.

Firearms - if an instructor is teaching any kind of handgun disarming without first having students learn all about firearms and actually shooting different kinds of firearms under qualified shooting instructors (NOT just target shooting)
It’s, at least to me, the equivalent of teaching someone how to ride a motorcycle by training them on a stationary bicycle and assuming they’ll be okay if they ever have to drive a motorcycle in an emergency. Probably not a good idea.

So with knives I believe the average person has held a knife , at least a steak knife once in their life and understand the point is sharp and the edge cuts and they have that exposure from normal culture.

Firearms, are not part of the normal everyday every sit down restaurant.
So I agree and would hope that some exposure and training with a firearm would occur before training.

And as I have stated elsewhere. Use a cheap water gun with multiple shirts. People argue the paint (exploded in air) or bb bounced off and not sure if a real hit or not.
Wet is wet.

Get good with the slow reaction of water and then move to other more expensive devices to continue the training.
***

Once again thank you for sharing, which gave me a chance to reply as well.

 

[Flying Crane]

I remember the first time I saw a Martial knife defense demonstrated, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. I couldn’t wait to get to that part of my training.

The first knife defense my (then) Instructor showed our class was against a low stab to the abdomen. We expertly X blocked it with both our crossed wrists. Which then allowed us to turn those crossed wrists into a nifty repositioned wrist lock and place our attacker into a chicken wing, or with a circular step, to put him on the ground. Oh, man, it was just so cool.

The fact that our partner, the attacker, stayed frozen in place so we could master the technique, wasn’t noticed by us. The attacker was ours, we owned him and his futile attack, we were, after all, Karate men. And our teacher ran a Karate school. You can’t very well run a Karate school without being the know all and end all of all things self defense. Including against the dreaded knife attack.

The next one we did was against the overhead, downward stab. We stepped in with our classic rising block. It was part of our basic eight point blocking system. We blocked that forearm, the one propelling that knife down. Our other arm immediately came up and entwined that attacking arm. Put it into an elbow lock and took down the attacker, who we then controlled. It wasn’t too difficult, he again stayed frozen in place since that downward stab was initially blocked.

If I may switch away for a second…..when I was in training as a rookie cop there were several films we had to watch. One was called “Edged Weapons.” It was actual footage of both knife attacks and a few people with mental health problems brutalizing themselves with edged weapons. The video quality was good for that era, and it was of the most unsettling things I have ever seen to this day. The video has long since been removed from any police training that I know of. It wasn’t for learning about how to defend against edged weapons, but rather to show us how dangerous they were.

Getting back to my original thoughts - I trained harder than anyone else in my dojo. I never missed a class, not one, for many years. I always came early and stayed late, it’s what I wanted to do and knew it was going to be doing it for a long time. I would practice those knife defenses even if there wasn’t anybody else there yet. I’d just do it against an imaginary attacker carrying the imaginary knife and do it against the air. I gotta tell ya, I was one hell of an imaginary Karate man.

That first instructor of mine had zero experience in anything having to do with actual fighting. But he told us differently. And we believed him.

If I had been fortunate enough to train, or even watch, real deal knife training I would have immediately known what we were being taught, and practicing, was the equivalent of what I call dojo suicide via instructor.

The first time I saw and experienced proper knife training, it took all of two minutes for me to shake my head and mutter to myself, "good Holy God what manner of B.S have we been doing?”

There are a lot of variables with knife defense. But they’re all fairly basic…..once you see the knife, that is. Not seeing it is another matter entirely. But if the enemy has a knife it’s either in his right hand or left hand. That hand might be his front hand at the time or his back hand. But even still there’s only so many angles the knife can come from, and only so many lines it can travel on it’s way to you. And that’s regardless of what grip the attacker is employing.

I have no idea how to disarm a man with a knife if I don’t have one as well. Sure, I can go through the motions, and maybe some times I’ll get lucky in training, but most times not. It’s one of the reasons I always have an easily accessible knife, been carrying one for a long time, on duty or off, regardless of what clothes I’m wearing or even if I’m in the water at the beach, the knife is always there.

Once you do some good knife training it’s a lot simpler than you would think. The angles become easy to read, regardless of any other factor. Your footwork is easier than say the footwork in boxing, a lot easier.

But the thing you’ll start to realize very quickly is - countering with your own edged weapon, especially against their knife hand, becomes a walk in the park. Honest.

If you’re training self defense moves against the knife when you don’t have one, you’ll still have to experience the angles used by people wielding a knife. Be them the classic prison sewing needle attack, or wide sweeping slashes. Be them by a trained knife fighter or a crazy street thug.

Firearms - if an instructor is teaching any kind of handgun disarming without first having students learn all about firearms and actually shooting different kinds of firearms under qualified shooting instructors (NOT just target shooting)
It’s, at least to me, the equivalent of teaching someone how to ride a motorcycle by training them on a stationary bicycle and assuming they’ll be okay if they ever have to drive a motorcycle in an emergency. Probably not a good idea.

Two points I want to make.

1) the knife defenses you very briefly describe that you were taught by your karate instructor, I could visualize even with that very minimal description.

2) Your post contains the second reference that you have made recently, to being at the beach. This one even claims you were in the water. I know you don’t go to the beach. So I begin to wonder if I can trust the rest of what you say here. 😂

 

[Buka]

Two points I want to make.

1) the knife defenses you very briefly describe that you were taught by your karate instructor, I could visualize even with that very minimal description.

2) Your post contains the second reference that you have made recently, to being at the beach. This one even claims you were in the water. I know you don’t go to the beach. So I begin to wonder if I can trust the rest of what you say here. 😂

Lol. The beach days were on the East coast. Too damn hot to go to the beach here. I don't actually know anyone that lives here that goes to the beach, except at night. (which is frightening to me)

 

[Flying Crane]

Lol. The beach days were on the East coast. Too damn hot to go to the beach here. I don't actually know anyone that lives here that goes to the beach, except at night. (which is frightening to me)

The last time we were there we spent most of our time at the beach. My son was finally old enough to just play in the surf and he got rolled over and over doing some body surfing. He absolutely loved it. We spent hours each day playing in the water.

 

[drop bear]

I remember the first time I saw a Martial knife defense demonstrated, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. I couldn’t wait to get to that part of my training.

The first knife defense my (then) Instructor showed our class was against a low stab to the abdomen. We expertly X blocked it with both our crossed wrists. Which then allowed us to turn those crossed wrists into a nifty repositioned wrist lock and place our attacker into a chicken wing, or with a circular step, to put him on the ground. Oh, man, it was just so cool.

The fact that our partner, the attacker, stayed frozen in place so we could master the technique, wasn’t noticed by us. The attacker was ours, we owned him and his futile attack, we were, after all, Karate men. And our teacher ran a Karate school. You can’t very well run a Karate school without being the know all and end all of all things self defense. Including against the dreaded knife attack.

The next one we did was against the overhead, downward stab. We stepped in with our classic rising block. It was part of our basic eight point blocking system. We blocked that forearm, the one propelling that knife down. Our other arm immediately came up and entwined that attacking arm. Put it into an elbow lock and took down the attacker, who we then controlled. It wasn’t too difficult, he again stayed frozen in place since that downward stab was initially blocked.

If I may switch away for a second…..when I was in training as a rookie cop there were several films we had to watch. One was called “Edged Weapons.” It was actual footage of both knife attacks and a few people with mental health problems brutalizing themselves with edged weapons. The video quality was good for that era, and it was of the most unsettling things I have ever seen to this day. The video has long since been removed from any police training that I know of. It wasn’t for learning about how to defend against edged weapons, but rather to show us how dangerous they were.

Getting back to my original thoughts - I trained harder than anyone else in my dojo. I never missed a class, not one, for many years. I always came early and stayed late, it’s what I wanted to do and knew it was going to be doing it for a long time. I would practice those knife defenses even if there wasn’t anybody else there yet. I’d just do it against an imaginary attacker carrying the imaginary knife and do it against the air. I gotta tell ya, I was one hell of an imaginary Karate man.

That first instructor of mine had zero experience in anything having to do with actual fighting. But he told us differently. And we believed him.

If I had been fortunate enough to train, or even watch, real deal knife training I would have immediately known what we were being taught, and practicing, was the equivalent of what I call dojo suicide via instructor.

The first time I saw and experienced proper knife training, it took all of two minutes for me to shake my head and mutter to myself, "good Holy God what manner of B.S have we been doing?”

There are a lot of variables with knife defense. But they’re all fairly basic…..once you see the knife, that is. Not seeing it is another matter entirely. But if the enemy has a knife it’s either in his right hand or left hand. That hand might be his front hand at the time or his back hand. But even still there’s only so many angles the knife can come from, and only so many lines it can travel on it’s way to you. And that’s regardless of what grip the attacker is employing.

I have no idea how to disarm a man with a knife if I don’t have one as well. Sure, I can go through the motions, and maybe some times I’ll get lucky in training, but most times not. It’s one of the reasons I always have an easily accessible knife, been carrying one for a long time, on duty or off, regardless of what clothes I’m wearing or even if I’m in the water at the beach, the knife is always there.

Once you do some good knife training it’s a lot simpler than you would think. The angles become easy to read, regardless of any other factor. Your footwork is easier than say the footwork in boxing, a lot easier.

But the thing you’ll start to realize very quickly is - countering with your own edged weapon, especially against their knife hand, becomes a walk in the park. Honest.

If you’re training self defense moves against the knife when you don’t have one, you’ll still have to experience the angles used by people wielding a knife. Be them the classic prison sewing needle attack, or wide sweeping slashes. Be them by a trained knife fighter or a crazy street thug.

Firearms - if an instructor is teaching any kind of handgun disarming without first having students learn all about firearms and actually shooting different kinds of firearms under qualified shooting instructors (NOT just target shooting)
It’s, at least to me, the equivalent of teaching someone how to ride a motorcycle by training them on a stationary bicycle and assuming they’ll be okay if they ever have to drive a motorcycle in an emergency. Probably not a good idea.

I took a bow and arrow off a guy a while back. I have no real idea how to shoot one.

 

[Buka]

I took a bow and arrow off a guy a while back. I have no real idea how to shoot one.

I know just how you feel, I took a three wood off a guy and I don't know how to play golf. My buddy took a five iron off the guy's friend and my buddy doesn't play golf either.

 

[Alan0354]

Seems like it's almost impossible to fight someone without getting any cuts. As long as there is a contact, there will be some sort of cutting. Maybe if you are very good and the guy doesn't know how to use a knife, you might get really small cut. But not being cut at all is very hard to believe.

Sure, in movie, you can have that, but in real life, things get messy. It's like fighting bare knuckles, no matter how good you are, you likely going to be touched, for bare knuckles, touch is nothing, but with a knife, a touch is a cut. I think if someone claim they won't get cut fighting someone with a knife, they likely over estimate themselves or under estimate everyone else. For one, I really don't like to listen to someone that talk as if the opponent doesn't know a thing. I always assume more from the opponent.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

IMO, if a dojo teaches defense against a knife, they first have to teach how to fight with a knife.

If a dojo teaches disarms against a firearm, they first have to have the students in question become trained in the use of firearms.

It doesn't make any sense to me to do it any other way other than making the students think they're learning something when they aren't.

I pretty much agree with this. What I could never figure out was how I'd manage to get basic firearm training for folks, except to require they take a firearms class (something like a CCW class). I never got anyone that far, so it was never an issue. How did you handle it?

 

[Buka]

I pretty much agree with this. What I could never figure out was how I'd manage to get basic firearm training for folks, except to require they take a firearms class (something like a CCW class). I never got anyone that far, so it was never an issue. How did you handle it?

I'll see if I can find the post I made concerning this, Gerry. But it really doesn't apply to anyone else. As I've said before, opportunities in Martial Arts were handed to me on a silver platter, constantly. None of which I deserved, but all of which I took advantage of.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Seems like it's almost impossible to fight someone without getting any cuts. As long as there is a contact, there will be some sort of cutting. Maybe if you are very good and the guy doesn't know how to use a knife, you might get really small cut. But not being cut at all is very hard to believe.

Idle speculation with no basis in any actual data.
I've had a knife pulled on me with intent three times. I was injured once. I was completely uninjured the other two times.
That's a sample size of one, so it proves nothing. But at least it's something other than pure speculation.

 

[drop bear]

I pretty much agree with this. What I could never figure out was how I'd manage to get basic firearm training for folks, except to require they take a firearms class (something like a CCW class). I never got anyone that far, so it was never an issue. How did you handle it?

I pretty much wrist lock throw/strip everything. Or kotageshi everything So it doesn't matter if I have any sort of intimate knowledge of what I am grabbing.

I disarmed a guys packet of cigarettes once thinking he was going for a knife.

Mabye not kotageshi. Whatever the one is where you go under the arm.