Self defense against a knife

[johnjones33]

What is your opinion on teaching unarmed self defense against a knife? do you think to do so without informing students of the risks involved is negligent? the reason i ask is i have had people come on my seminars who seem to think that it is easy to disarm someone with a knife without getting injured and are actually hoping to be confronted by an assailant with a knife so they can demonstrate their amazing techniques.

i pray this never happens for their sake.

i am a reality self defense instructor and teach knife disarming techniques, although if i were faced with a non-life threatening situation (eg mugging/ hold-up) and all i needed to do was hand over a wallet to avoid an altercation with someone armed with a knife then that is what i would do. i wouldn't want to take on anyone armed with a knife unless i was fighting for my life or for that of a loved one. A knife is an amazing leveller which is why they are the weapon of choice for cowards who would be vulnerable without one and an untrained individual can kill the most highly trained expert with one.

many people that have learned self defense against a knife in my experience have a dangerously over-inflated opinion of their abilities to disarm an opponent. thoughts?

 

[MA-Caver]

This topic has been covered before and basically the end of it all was... you're likely going to get cut.
The thing is to either avoid getting cut by running away if possible or minimizing the damage as much as possible. Arming yourself with whatever is available at hand, 2X4, broken bottle, stout stick, whatever! ANYTHING to put a barrier between you and the business end of that blade. Going hand to knife... there's going to be blood and pain and damage to YOU no matter what. Never mind what the movies show it's all choreographed and a very dull blade that just looks sharp. The wonders of hollywood.

A long time ago (canna remember if I posted it here or not), I read an article from one of my oldest brother's military magazines. It talked about the H2H combat training involving knives (both parties had 'em and both were sharp). The instructor waited for the recruit to make their move, he grabbed the attacking blade and managed to get his arm around the "attacker's" throat with the blade ready to make an ear-to-ear cut. The recruit dropped his blade and conceded the loss. The instructor then turned to the class while having his hand attended by the medic and stated, "...sometimes you have to throw your hand away..." Now I would imagine that there are a lot of people out there saying "That's NUTS!" or "what a moronic idea!" ... but having myself been in a few altercations involving a blade... I'd be inclined to agree ... provided that once the blade is "stabilized" that yours goes to action quickly and decisively before any more damage is done. Stabilized by either grabbing the blade itself (a definite last resort) or trapping the arm/hand/wrist holding the blade while yours goes to work at the vitals, eyes, throat, heart, near surface arteries anything to put the attacker down quick before they turn the blade on you while entrapped.
Otherwise run-like-hell.

if possible.

 

[MJS]

What is your opinion on teaching unarmed self defense against a knife? do you think to do so without informing students of the risks involved is negligent? the reason i ask is i have had people come on my seminars who seem to think that it is easy to disarm someone with a knife without getting injured and are actually hoping to be confronted by an assailant with a knife so they can demonstrate their amazing techniques.

i pray this never happens for their sake.

i am a reality self defense instructor and teach knife disarming techniques, although if i were faced with a non-life threatening situation (eg mugging/ hold-up) and all i needed to do was hand over a wallet to avoid an altercation with someone armed with a knife then that is what i would do. i wouldn't want to take on anyone armed with a knife unless i was fighting for my life or for that of a loved one. A knife is an amazing leveller which is why they are the weapon of choice for cowards who would be vulnerable without one and an untrained individual can kill the most highly trained expert with one.

many people that have learned self defense against a knife in my experience have a dangerously over-inflated opinion of their abilities to disarm an opponent. thoughts?

Well, IMHO, when it comes to the knife, there is alot of crap out there. Sure, alot of stuff will work when the 'attacker' is compliant, but try the same stuff on a resisting opponent, and you'll likely end up dead. Yes, of course one should expect to get cut. As for what to do when faced with a blade...well, of course, if you can get the hell out of the situation, do so. If not, I'd look for an equalizer....anything that I can grab and use, I'll do it. I look at it like this...the guy already upped the odds by using a knife, so picking up a chair is fine in my eyes. If something isn't available, and you must go empty hand, my thoughts are K.I.S.S....anything else, as I said, is asking for trouble. Control first, and then work for a disarm, all the while using your free limbs to punish the guy.

 

[Buka]

I used to teach some nifty knife defenses. The advanced students loved them. They were really cool.
I started training knife fighting ten years ago. Found out that all I used to teach concerning the knife was utter nonsense. It was a hard thing to swallow realizing what I had been teaching was probably putting people's lives in jeopardy for all those years. And not just martial arts students. I've been teaching federal law enforcement for a long time.
You have to train in knife fighting to learn to defend against the blade.

 

[Thesemindz]

Unfortunately I've heard this point of view before. More than once, I've heard people say things like, "If someone attacked me I'd rather if he had a knife than if he was empty handed because that would limit the kinds of techniques he could use." Yah, sure, to only the most dangerous and lethal ones.

Personally, I think that's dangerously naive and teaching that to your students is morally negligent. No one picks up a weapon to make themselves less dangerous. Knives, and bladed/pointed weapons in general are extremely dangerous.
I teach my students that if they are confronted with one, the chances of them being badly injured are high. Fighting in general is a dangerous and risky affair, fighting with weapons far more so.

It's one thing when untrained civilians have this kind of ignorant attitude. It's another thing when self defense instructors think this way, and another still when they teach it to others. Knives are dangerous. They are not toys, and confronting one isn't like in the action movies. It's likely to be bloody and painful and terrifying and hopefully you will survive.


-Rob

 

[MAist25]

Check out what this guy has to say. I think he has a very realistic approach when it comes to knife defense technique...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsxk7dGY8KQ&feature=player_embedded

 

[johnjones33]

thanks for your responses. this was my first ever post and wanted to get a feel for what people think on here and it's good to get some intelligent responses. think you can get out of knife fight without getting cut, think again. FACT you are 6 times more likely to die from a stab wound as you are from a bullet wound. knives never jam, misfire or run out of ammo. to quote Mark Twain "when danger threatens, better absense of body than presence of mind" or as the old chinese saying goes "of all the 101 things to do when faced with a threat, the best one is - Leave"

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi johnjones33,

I teach knife defence as part of our syllabus, and it actually gets more focus that any other area in our "modern" training. The main reason is simply that the most likely weapon to be used in an assault here is a knife, not a gun. If it was a gun, then we'd do more pistol defence. But I digress...

The very first thing we teach when it comes to knife defence (we actually term it "Knife Survival", as the aim is not necessarily to "defend" against an attack, it's to survive and get away) is awareness of when someone may have a weapon, followed by distance management. Next involves understanding of a number of more "psychological" aspects, including how to make sure you recognise the knife (many people who are stabbed just think they've been punched, as they never see the knife), getting any witnesses around to see it as well, and common attacking methods (as well as why they are common).

From there we move into avoidance and evasion drills, and start to combine that with deflective actions, and escape. Up to this point, it has been repeated a number of times that, unless you absolutely have to, do not engage against a weapon.... and, if possible, get an equaliser if you can. But the first rule is to avoid engaging unless impossible; if you can run, run! If they are just after money, give it! Only if you absolutely have to do you engage... bearing in mind that the longer it goes on, the more likely you are to be injured, and the worse you are likely to be injured.

Then we start to look to physical techniques for dealing with such an eventuality. There are a range of principles we use, but suffice to say that control is a big part of it, and everything is based around the training concept of "natural resistance", which, to my mind, is the biggest thing missing in most systems. Many think they have an understanding of resistance training, but they are actually training against unrealistic forms of resistance, which gives completely different body shapes, targets, possible actions, and forces and energies being involved (by which I mean the direction that such force/energy is travelling).

Perhaps another member here may give more of an "outsider's" point of view as to how we do things, as they attended a class of me teaching this subject (amongst one or two others) a few months ago, but I'll leave it to them if they wish.

Check out what this guy has to say. I think he has a very realistic approach when it comes to knife defense technique...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsxk7dGY8KQ&feature=player_embedded

Honestly, there's a huge disconnect between reality and what Emin is showing here. The attacks are skilled, but not realistic, neither are the resistances/redirections/follow-ons etc, the distancing is unrealistic, and far more. He has some good ideas, but he's a little trapped in his system to really get a realistic approach, I feel.

 

[mook jong man]

I trained with Ray Floro for about a year I dunno if he's known much outside Oz and he doesn't believe in disarms , he believes in capturing the knife arm first then multiple strikes with knees ,elbows ,headbutts , face controls etc and the attacker ends up dropping the knife anyway.

You also have to go in hard and fast and keep moving in and keep forward pressure against the knife arm so that it lessens the chance of the attacker doing a sewing machine motion/piston action with his knife arm.

I think if your knife defence technique can't deal with that frenzied sewing machine type attack then you have to rethink the effectiveness of the technique you are using.

 

[MA-Caver]

Honestly, there's a huge disconnect between reality and what Emin is showing here. The attacks are skilled, but not realistic, neither are the resistances/redirections/follow-ons etc, the distancing is unrealistic, and far more. He has some good ideas, but he's a little trapped in his system to really get a realistic approach, I feel.

Agreed. My time on the streets have exposed me to several knife threats, some directly but most of them just witnessing the attacks upon another. A very large percentage of them were very close-quarter, surprise attacks with the blade hidden until the last moment. Two guys walking towards each other, neither of them being confrontational against the other and bam one guy stabs and slices the other as soon as they pass and the victim had no clue that he was about to be attacked or felt threatened.
It's an awareness thing actually, watching everything about everyone around you within an imaginary circle... even in a (light) crowd. Heavy crowded conditions... well gotta do the best you can.
A lot of knife attacks I saw were also clumsy, awkward and just plain lucky to actually get a strike/slice in.

Awareness... watching the hands, the eyes and just plain being prepared best as you can.

 

[MAist25]

@ Chris and MA-Caver

I completely agree with both of you on the vid I posted, especially about the distancing. The attacks were coming from very long range for a knife attack. However, I feel that he brings up some good points when he speaks and it is a good visual reference to help understand what he is talking about. I am not at all saying his techniques are flawless but he does have some good points and it is one of the better online vids I have been able to find on knife defense.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm, I don't think you quite get how far from realistic what Emin is showing is. The attacks are unrealistic, the distancing is unrealistic, the techniques are unrealistic, the timing is unrealistic, the responces from both attacker and defender are unrealistic....I could go on, or if you prefer, I could take the video apart and show what I mean. And, as you posited it as a "very realistic approach", it fails in that regard, at least to me.

In terms of better videos out there, my go-to guy for anything to do with knife work is Michael Janich, for a number of reasons. The first clip anyone should see on the subject is probably this one:

 

[MA-Caver]

From the comments of the (above) video.

When someone who has over 25 yrs experience in Ma study and practice on a very practical level... and they still fear a knife attack when unarmed... that should be considered a serious lesson right there. If you still think gun > Knife... then try a simple test... take a water pistol, place it inside a jacket (as if in holster) and get someone to rush you from 20 ft away 'slicing' at you with a red water soluble marker... now see if you get more scribble on you than they get wet on them.

Go ahead try it... and of course... be realistic. Personally, I'd rather use a red sharpie... the marks stay longer and can't be washed off easily... kinda like an actual knife wound... permanent.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ha, yeah, I thought the same thing....

 

[tshadowchaser]

When I instruct knife defense I always start with a short lecture on the difference between a threat and the actual combat. Once the combat stage happens it is about survival not just about winning.


Then I explain what is lethal force and when it can be used. I always make sure the class knows when defense ends and their aggression starts. I try to let them know what may be said or asked in court.


Surviving a knife attack is about the choices you make when confronted with the situation and how fast you respond to the threat.


Lastly, before going into the actual class work I let them know they will be affected for life by such an encounter ( win or lose).
you have to remember that in a class we have the attacker attack this way or that but in the street the thug may attack in almost any way


Personally I feel there are way to many people out there teaching knife work that have never been in a situation where they had to deal with someone intent on cutting them. There are also way to many wannabe, self impressed, egotistical, frauds teaching **** that just dose not work

 

[MA-Caver]

Personally I feel there are way to many people out there teaching knife work that have never been in a situation where they had to deal with someone intent on cutting them. There are also way to many wannabe, self impressed, egotistical, frauds teaching **** that just dose not work

Therein lies the problem that gives MA instructors and MA as a whole a bad name.

Try this... if you live in a large city with a homeless population, you could go to the shelters look around and even interview some "possible candidates" (or even improbable ones) and invite them to your school (after they showered of course ) and have them "attack" your students as they would anyone they would really do on the streets. They're not going to use "trained techniques", they're not going to be neat, sweet and perfectly timed. They'll use what-ever methods they know which (should) approximate what a majority of folks likely to use "out there, beyond the dojo". Of course use rubber knives or pens or whatever but the effect that the students ( and the instructors as well) will attempt to use their training and see the flaws in it or mistakes they're making.
You can even offer a sum of $1.00 per student or $5.00 per student the invited guy takes on. They're not to instruct but to act. It's like an "controlled experiment with an unpredictable element thrown into the mix". You could take them on yourself privately (and/or with other instructors) to ensure this guy isn't going to go nuts on you or your students, but that's what the initial interview process should cover, once you (the instructor) are satisfied then bring them in the next training day and have at it. You can have knife drills prior to this day, let the students practice for a bit then bring in the guy. I would recommend finding one that hasn't had "previous MA-training" but if they're veterans then they'll at least have the instruction ideal in their minds already. You of course don't want to find an actual criminal (as if they'll admit it to you) but then again they're there... in the shelters seeking refuge until it's time for them to "go to work".
Set up whatever scenario you want; out on a date, walking from office/class to car, taking a short cut through an alley to get home quicker, various parking lot scenarios (store, movie, mall, etc.) whatever! You can make it a one day seminar of sorts that the students pay extra (the $1-5.00 fee to the homeless guy), so it's no "out of pocket" expense from the school. You of course can determine the age/rank of the student that'll be allowed to participate.

If anything the few bucks the homeless guy makes is money in their pocket to fulfill their needs for a day or three, you expose your students to a "real-life" element (kinda) and it's a win-win as far as I can see it. It can be fun but more importantly it'll likely be very educational.

 

[MAist25]

@ Chris

I still dont agree with you that what Emin displayed was as unrealistic as you say. I have seen far far worse than what he has shown. I think that quick blocks and immediate, relentless attack on the assailant is the best you can do against a knife attack. Being defensive against a knife-weilder will only get you killed, in my opinion. I have been held up at knifepoint and started thinking about all the times I have practiced defenses against knife attacks. But as soon as the real blade came out and I did not know the intentions of my would-be attacker, everything went out the window.

A friend of mine and martial arts practitioner of over 30 years, as well as a retired NYPD detective believes that when the human body is tired, scared, or injured, all fine motor skills go out the window. As martial artists we must focus on basic, gross motor skills to survive, especially when it comes to weapons. I tend to agree with what he says because of his personal experiences. All these fancy moves you see out there will never ever happen in a real scenario. You need to recognize the threat, and attack the threat until it is no longer able to hurt you. In the military we call it violence of action; if you are going to attack, you attack with everything you got and overwhelm your opponent so that it is physically impossible for him to have time to hit you back.

 

[geezer]

@ Chris

I still dont agree with you that what Emin displayed was as unrealistic as you say. I have seen far far worse than what he has shown. I think that quick blocks and immediate, relentless attack on the assailant is the best you can do against a knife attack. Being defensive against a knife-weilder will only get you killed, in my opinion. I have been held up at knifepoint and started thinking about all the times I have practiced defenses against knife attacks. But as soon as the real blade came out and I did not know the intentions of my would-be attacker, everything went out the window.

A friend of mine and martial arts practitioner of over 30 years, as well as a retired NYPD detective believes that when the human body is tired, scared, or injured, all fine motor skills go out the window. As martial artists we must focus on basic, gross motor skills to survive, especially when it comes to weapons. I tend to agree with what he says because of his personal experiences. All these fancy moves you see out there will never ever happen in a real scenario. You need to recognize the threat, and attack the threat until it is no longer able to hurt you. In the military we call it violence of action; if you are going to attack, you attack with everything you got and overwhelm your opponent so that it is physically impossible for him to have time to hit you back.

You make some good points here. Chris counters the video of Emin with Janich. Well Janich is pretty much a blade specialist, and it shows. Emin is a generalist. I know because he and I trained under the same people... Leung Ting for Wing Tsun and Rene Latosa for Escrima. Many years back I also trained briefly under Emin. Like Janich, Latosa introduces you to knife defense with a healthy dose of reality. The difference is that he doesn't teach lower level people anything complex. It's strickly KISS... and if you can't get away, then be as aggressive as hell. Don't mess around with complex moves. Move in, take out your attacker's "control center", and end it. Understand that you will get cut, and if you get out of it alive... it's been a good day.

 

[MA-Caver]

@ Chris

I still dont agree with you that what Emin displayed was as unrealistic as you say. I have seen far far worse than what he has shown. I think that quick blocks and immediate, relentless attack on the assailant is the best you can do against a knife attack. Being defensive against a knife-weilder will only get you killed, in my opinion. I have been held up at knifepoint and started thinking about all the times I have practiced defenses against knife attacks. But as soon as the real blade came out and I did not know the intentions of my would-be attacker, everything went out the window.

A friend of mine and martial arts practitioner of over 30 years, as well as a retired NYPD detective believes that when the human body is tired, scared, or injured, all fine motor skills go out the window. As martial artists we must focus on basic, gross motor skills to survive, especially when it comes to weapons. I tend to agree with what he says because of his personal experiences. All these fancy moves you see out there will never ever happen in a real scenario. You need to recognize the threat, and attack the threat until it is no longer able to hurt you. In the military we call it violence of action; if you are going to attack, you attack with everything you got and overwhelm your opponent so that it is physically impossible for him to have time to hit you back.

You make some good points here. Chris counters the video of Emin with Janich. Well Janich is pretty much a blade specialist, and it shows. Emin is a generalist. I know because he and I trained under the same people... Leung Ting for Wing Tsun and Rene Latosa for Escrima. Many years back I also trained briefly under Emin. Like Janich, Latosa introduces you to knife defense with a healthy dose of reality. The difference is that he doesn't teach lower level people anything complex. It's strictly KISS... and if you can't get away, then be as aggressive as hell. Don't mess around with complex moves. Move in, take out your attacker's "control center", and end it. Understand that you will get cut, and if you get out of it alive... it's been a good day.

I don't think Chris was trying to critique the video too much on purpose or to put it down. There ARE a lot of those videos lurking in You Tube and one has to be careful about what they're watching and even more careful to take it as gospel. I agree with the video itself that you attack hard and quick and with anything that is nearby or just be mean as hell with your hands and feet, like it was stated: get scared, injured or tired and the fms goes out the window... but as you say.. as MA-ists we need to learn focus (hence the need for learning meditation techniques) and to control the adrenalin dump so it works to our advantage in a life and death altercation... and ANY encounter with a blade is automatically "life and death". Treat it as such and use your training best as you can and come out of it alive (even if not in one piece)... you're doing okay.

 

[Thesemindz]

This discussion reminds me of a black belt class we had years ago. We had spent the whole hour working on knives, knife attacks, knife defenses, knife disarms, knife drawing, knife versus empty hand, and knife versus knife. At the end of the class, the instructor had us squaring off one on one, knife versus empty hand, while the rest of the class watched. All black belts with multiple years of training experience. One at a time, we'd square off, the attacker would lunge in and the defender would step off line, deflect and control, counter with strikes, takedown the opponent, disarm and finish. Everybody used the techniques we'd been practicing, everybody survived.

Then the instructor said he wanted to do one more demonstration, so he grabbed the knife, squared off against one of the senior instructors, and charged at him. He grabbed the guy by the shoulder, and attacked him with repeated pummeling strikes, chasing him back, knocking him to the floor, and following him down with stab after stab after stab. Dead.

The instructor stopped at that point and turned to the class and pointed out that there was a big difference between knife sparring/dueling and a sudden violent knife assault. A knife wielding attacker doesn't lunge from four feet away. A knife wielding attacker doesn't hold the weapon out away from his body and attack you from directly in front. A knife wielding attacker doesn't even let you see the weapon. He buries it in your flesh, withdraws, and then re-feeds the blade again and again and again. Until you are dead. And maybe for some time after that.

I think there is value in the kind of knife defense that Emin demonstrated in his video. Distance is my best friend. If I can create that distance between me and the attacker and keep him at distance using long range strikes and defensive footwork, I may be able to keep him out of range long enough to escape. But the attack won't start at long range. It will start inside trapping range, and I have to be able to survive the initial assault before I can worry about moving outside critical distance.

I tell my students all the time. Weapons are force multipliers. From the first caveman who picked up a rock, combatants only ever picked up weapons to make themselves more dangerous. And in some ways, at close range, bladed/pointed weapons may be the most dangerous weapons of all.


-Rob