Understanding the knife encounter.

zDom

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The techniques we train to deal with knife attacks consider that a cut or stab to a limb is not as bad as a cut or stab to the vital organs and structures in the abdomen, neck and head.

We know we are likely to get cut. We are training to mitigate that to the best of our ability.

Of course we are looking to cause grave injury to the attacker: that is part of EVERY technique. NONE of our techniques "grab the knife hand" and STOP.

(What do you think we are doing while controlling the knife hand?) But in doing so we are also looking to ensure we are not taking multiple wounds to vital systems.


Just to make sure we understand each other, lets deal with a concrete example:

One of our techniques presupposes the attacker stabs downward with an icepick grip (we have other techniques for other angles of attack; lets just stick with this one for the moment) with a right hand.

Stepping in to meet the attack, our left arm strikes in an upward rising block-type motion; right arm slips behind their elbow; driving them to the ground with, if they haven't already hit the ground, a major outer reap to the attacker's right leg.

As the attacker hits ground, we grab knife, dislocate shoulder (or vice verse: dislocate shoulder to encourage them to drop the knife ...)

We will probably get cut on our left arm. Few people will hit the ground head first backward without significant injury.

Suggest how better to "shut off the head" directly while ignoring the knife if facing this specific attack
 
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BLACK LION

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Rotate outside the downward arc(letting knife continue its course uninterrupted), while projecting through or beyond the threats base with a strike to the target then continue the chain until satisfied. Normally the first couple strikes set the threats body in position for a break and a dump or a dump then a break...

My focus would be less on which technique could deter the blade and more on stacking targets and injuries to "shut them off"
 

GBlues

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The techniques we train to deal with knife attacks consider that a cut or stab to a limb is not as bad as a cut or stab to the vital organs and structures in the abdomen, neck and head.

We know we are likely to get cut. We are training to mitigate that to the best of our ability.

Of course we are looking to cause grave injury to the attacker: that is part of EVERY technique. NONE of our techniques "grab the knife hand" and STOP.

(What do you think we are doing while controlling the knife hand?) But in doing so we are also looking to ensure we are not taking multiple wounds to vital systems.


Just to make sure we understand each other, lets deal with a concrete example:

One of our techniques presupposes the attacker stabs downward with an icepick grip (we have other techniques for other angles of attack; lets just stick with this one for the moment) with a right hand.

Stepping in to meet the attack, our left arm strikes in an upward rising block-type motion; right arm slips behind their elbow; driving them to the ground with, if they haven't already hit the ground, a major outer reap to the attacker's right leg.

As the attacker hits ground, we grab knife, dislocate shoulder (or vice verse: dislocate shoulder to encourage them to drop the knife ...)

We will probably get cut on our left arm. Few people will hit the ground head first backward without significant injury.

Suggest how better to "shut off the head" directly while ignoring the knife if facing this specific attack

This is actually a good example of a standard defense against a knife. It is one that my father taught me. But, there is a problem with it. So let's step back just for a moment, and think about the three kinds of basic fighters there are in the world. Offensive fighters, defensive fighters, and counter fighters right? I mean that's a pretty simple concept. Now, you can pretty much throw the counter fighter out of the picture because he is still defending to mount an immediate attack, or offense. So we now have two kinds of basic fighters offensive and defensive. The reality is we can't do both at the same time. Your either attacking or defending, no matter how you look at it.

So your basic ice pick downward strike with a knife is a great example because whether you are going to hold on to the knife or throw the knife you still have to have some kind of aim to hit your target. The same is true with guns, knive, knees, punches, kicks, elbows, knees, etc...they all require aiming. Putting your strike where you want it. A moving target is obviously harder to hit than a stationary target right? So your gonna say, "Yeah exactly!", but here is the caveat to that, a target 5 feet away that bursts at you with everything it's got, is no longer where your aim was at. They've moved. So let's look at what we can take away from your basic technique.

First we have an opponent striking with a downward strike. So we are going to either step back or step forward into our neutral bow, while executing an upward strike or block with our left arm to his right downward knife weilding travelling arm. At the same time we are going to grab his elbow, (Which we didn't break yet, nor did we break the knife arm, we've merely stopped the attack momentarily), and sweep his legs out from under him, hoping he'll drop the knife, and we'll get a dislocation.

On the other hand, when he attacks with that knife in his downward arc, we could just burst forward with our forearm in the lead, putting all of our weight behind that one strike and strike him in the throat. Now, if we're slightly late we may get struck on the left shoulder, but because we've moved inside of the knife's arc we probably won't get stabbed. We might get a two fer on this one. He might hyper extend his elbow if were late and he lands just right on our shoulder. Don't count on it, but it could happen. We know were going to crush the guys throat, even if we don't we know he's going to move backward, drop the knife and grab his throat. If he doesn't drop the knife he's going to cut his own throat, and from there we just start piling on injuries. I just bypassed three whole steps in your technique with one and got a result that is going to allow me to get more injuries and results. Plus I didn't have to mess with the knife, at all. I just hit the guy and got a result.

Now, wait a minute right, that's all well and good if your standing but what if they have you on your knees. The same applies, just the targets are different. Now you would burst forward with your weight, into the guys testicles causing him to bend over, or his bladder even, it's going to make him bend over. Or you can throw your weight behind a left to right or right to left strike to the knee either one is fine, and buckle or perhaps even dislocate or break it, the one that has the most weight on it, is preferable to make these knee strikes work. But either way, you need to get him to stop attacking and starting defending, or trying to anyways. Once his knee buckles and he falls, then it's just a simple matter of striking the first target that you see, which is probably going to be the testicles, punch him in the gonads dude. He's going to bend forward to protect them after the fact, he just exposed at least 2 more targets, from there, break a clavicle, or strike the carotid artery, or for a third grab his head and begin to gouge his eye out. Remember this guy pulled this knife on you not because he wanted to ask your sister out on a date, but because he wants to kill you.
If you don't like going for the knees as he steps forward with his left foot, drop your weight with your forearm leading just above that little knob on the ankle and break it. Very effective.

YOu see the difference in thinking? I'm not the one having violence done to them trying to play catchup with defense. I'm now the one doing the violence, and that is what you want. If your having to try and stop the violence using socially acceptable rules, you may get hurt very badly. You play by their rules, (The bad guys), and you flip the tables on them, and just start doing the violence. Once you get an injury everything changes in your favor. The secret is in striking targets, but not just targets, destroying those targets so that they don't work anymore. When your done with this guy there should be life altering changes done to his anatomy. Whether it be that he limps for the rest of his life, only has one eye, or is dead. Something should be destroyed. It's not pretty and nobody likes it, and nobody wants to do it, except the guy doing it to you. He loves it, cause he's getting what he wants. What does he want? YOur life. For him it's just another day at the office. The same way the lion hunts it's meal and kills it for food. It isn't bothered by the fact that it took a life, it's just how the lion survives. THe same with these a-social sociopaths, it's just how they live, and if your in the wrong place at the wrong time, they are going to do everything in there power to do you in. If respond with anything less than utter violence, you play russian roulette with your life.
 

lklawson

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Rotate outside the downward arc
"Arc?" What arc? An icepick stab isn't going to be performed in an arc, it's gonna be just like a hammerfist except with a sharp stabby thing sticking out. Short strokes, hard, fast, and linear.

Maybe that's not what you're talking about, but when people talk about "arcs" in regard to icepick attacks, I start thinking Jim Carry.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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BLACK LION

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"Arc?" What arc? An icepick stab isn't going to be performed in an arc, it's gonna be just like a hammerfist except with a sharp stabby thing sticking out. Short strokes, hard, fast, and linear.

Maybe that's not what you're talking about, but when people talk about "arcs" in regard to icepick attacks, I start thinking Jim Carry.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

an arc is a circular attack in my verbage... they could be linear but circular in nature becuase of the body mechanics be hind the type of attack or just linear... most often its both unless you attack them with your arm and the blade completely straight which would be akin to a spear and seemingly unusual... I see less fencing type straight thrusts in using knives....

an icepick hold will most likely be traveling downward in a straight path or at and angle but will be circular in nature... it can also travel sideways in a straight line or diagonal but will be circular in nature... it will arc because of the rotation in the shoulder and/or bending of the elbow...

a downward icepick stab is circular in nature even if the path is in a straight or diagonal line becuase of the shoulder rotation and or bend of the elbow... In fact even the classic or chinese hold uses the same principles... regardless of the hold the attack will most often be based on some sort of rotation or arc simply due to the anatomical mechanics of the joints...

make sense
 
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BLACK LION

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"Arc?" What arc? An icepick stab isn't going to be performed in an arc, it's gonna be just like a hammerfist except with a sharp stabby thing sticking out. Short strokes, hard, fast, and linear.

Maybe that's not what you're talking about, but when people talk about "arcs" in regard to icepick attacks, I start thinking Jim Carry.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

The rotation in the nature of the attack and the ability to shift poi and poa in a heartbeat are what sets the blade apart from the gun... a gun attack will always be linear becuase no matter what the bullets path cannot be interrupted by the end user at will and it does not require joint rotation to be executed... for these resons the blade is far more dangerous at bad breath distance...

make sense...
 

lklawson

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The rotation in the nature of the attack and the ability to shift poi and poa in a heartbeat are what sets the blade apart from the gun... a gun attack will always be linear becuase no matter what the bullets path cannot be interrupted by the end user at will and it does not require joint rotation to be executed... for these resons the blade is far more dangerous at bad breath distance...

make sense...
Sure, just not in context of an icepick grip attack at close range. It's not going to travel in any sort of significant "arc."

As I said, it'll travel in a linear path, like a hammerfist. Same as if the bottom of the fist were being used to bang loudly on a door to get the occupant's attention. Travel path of the point is going to be 24 inches or less. Linear, no "arc."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

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an arc is a circular attack in my verbage... they could be linear but circular in nature becuase of the body mechanics be hind the type of attack or just linear... most often its both unless you attack them with your arm and the blade completely straight which would be akin to a spear and seemingly unusual... I see less fencing type straight thrusts in using knives....

an icepick hold will most likely be traveling downward in a straight path or at and angle but will be circular in nature... it can also travel sideways in a straight line or diagonal but will be circular in nature... it will arc because of the rotation in the shoulder and/or bending of the elbow...

a downward icepick stab is circular in nature even if the path is in a straight or diagonal line becuase of the shoulder rotation and or bend of the elbow... In fact even the classic or chinese hold uses the same principles... regardless of the hold the attack will most often be based on some sort of rotation or arc simply due to the anatomical mechanics of the joints...

make sense
I get what you are saying but you are mixing terms. As I said, when you bang away on a door with your hammerfist, knocking loudly, the strokes are short, powerful, and the travel of the fist is linear, even if the shoulder has to "rotate." The simple fact is that the shoulder is going to rotate less than 90 degrees at the maximum, the point is going to travel less than 24 inches and along a linear path, with the elbow extending to expand the length of the arm (and therefore the strike) so that the path is more or less linear. It's very linear and very "caveman." Unless you are lucky, prescient, have Spidersense, or a gold pocket watch that stops time, I see little way of "rotating outside the arc" without engaging the attacking limb in a "parrying" type action.

That's the issue with icepick attacks. As you say, they happen at "bad breath range." This is WELL within what Silver calls "Time of the Hand." It's where Prestidigitators steal the phrase "The hand is quicker than the eye" from. Silver is saying that when a person is close enough to strike an attack by only moving the "hand" (instead of additionally shifting the body or taking steps) then the "eye" (human reaction time) is simply too slow. You will get hit. The Hand is quicker than the Eye. For defensive purposes, Silver considers this a "False Time," while, for offensive purposes, silver considers this a "True Time."

But I digress far afield from the original point.

Again, I'm just not seeing any significant "arc" and I have some minor quibbles with your functional definition. You mention a Fencing Lunge as an example of a linear attack however, the body mechanics still dictate "arc" movement. The arm extends at the shoulder making an "arc" and the elbow extends also making an "arc." But, as in the case with the icepick stab, the "arcs" are counter to each other and "cancel" each other out into a linear movement.

Anyway, I think this thread is rapidly exhausting itself and is diverging significantly from the original intent. I think it may be best for me to leave off of it soon. :)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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I get what you are saying but you are mixing terms. As I said, when you bang away on a door with your hammerfist, knocking loudly, the strokes are short, powerful, and the travel of the fist is linear, even if the shoulder has to "rotate." The simple fact is that the shoulder is going to rotate less than 90 degrees at the maximum, the point is going to travel less than 24 inches and along a linear path, with the elbow extending to expand the length of the arm (and therefore the strike) so that the path is more or less linear. It's very linear and very "caveman." Unless you are lucky, prescient, have Spidersense, or a gold pocket watch that stops time, I see little way of "rotating outside the arc" without engaging the attacking limb in a "parrying" type action.

That's the issue with icepick attacks. As you say, they happen at "bad breath range." This is WELL within what Silver calls "Time of the Hand." It's where Prestidigitators steal the phrase "The hand is quicker than the eye" from. Silver is saying that when a person is close enough to strike an attack by only moving the "hand" (instead of additionally shifting the body or taking steps) then the "eye" (human reaction time) is simply too slow. You will get hit. The Hand is quicker than the Eye. For defensive purposes, Silver considers this a "False Time," while, for offensive purposes, silver considers this a "True Time."

But I digress far afield from the original point.

Again, I'm just not seeing any significant "arc" and I have some minor quibbles with your functional definition. You mention a Fencing Lunge as an example of a linear attack however, the body mechanics still dictate "arc" movement. The arm extends at the shoulder making an "arc" and the elbow extends also making an "arc." But, as in the case with the icepick stab, the "arcs" are counter to each other and "cancel" each other out into a linear movement.

Anyway, I think this thread is rapidly exhausting itself and is diverging significantly from the original intent. I think it may be best for me to leave off of it soon. :)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Ok, no I see what your saying. This guy is swinging this icepick in a hammer type fashion. It's possible to pull off a key-lock in this situation also. However, the principle is the same. It doesn't matter whether he's trying to use your head as a giant nail head and shove this ice pick through it. It's not going to change the principle. The only difference is your attack. Instead of maybe a forearm strike, you go with a kick more distance, and you put everything in it to rupture the testicles. I think a big problem a lot of people have with this knife defense scenarios, is they make it more complicated than it has to be. It's not complicated. It's still a fist fight, just one guy has a knife, which makes him potentially more dangerous, but not necassarily so. Consider a commited attack. When you decide to throw a punch, and you commit to that, you wouldn't be throwing it out there with commitment and intent if you didn't think it would land right? Exactly. The problem with commited attacks they are hard to redirect, and move to doing something else until they have finished there path of travel. In the case of a punch it has to return back to it's starting point, or return enough to strike again. So in the case of knife, yes, you can get cut very easily even on a knifes return path, however, he has the knife, if he's really trying to kill you, every attack most likely is commited. So you don't have to worry about redirection until the end of his travel. Then it has to retract some to strike again. If you don't worry about it, and just hit the guy it all changes. I'm telling you, I know you think I'm full of crap. But, get one of your training partners, and have him put a cup on, and give the guy a practice knife, and just practice your regular techniques. Then instead of doing that, just reach out and kick the guy in the nads as hard as you can. Even with the cup on your going to get a reaction, it's normal, it's a vital target. It's one that every man knows hurts. You'll see a huge difference in how things happen. It all changes that instant. I've kicked guys close to the groin and missed the testicles all together, and had them doubled over swearing I kicked them in there fun bag. It doesn't take much. The more power the better, because it's a potentially life altering injury. I mean don't injure your partner obviously but you see what I'm getting at. If you think about it, it makes a lot of sense. Why try and grab a potentially dangerous item, when all you have to do is attack the mongrel trying to use it against you. When you attack you want to make sure that when your attack ends your body is where his used to be at? Make sense?
 

zDom

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The technique does not initiate with a "grab" at the weapon.

It places your forearm in between you and the attack while simultaneously throwing the attacker to the ground.

IMO, throwing the attacker to the ground hurts them worse and with more certainty than any single strike.

The keylock and disarm are follow ups to the initial response.

A prone attacker who has just fallen hard to their head/shoulders with the force of their bodyweight and rotation from the sweep is much more likely be stunned (brain "shut off") then having received any single strike from a hand or foot and should provide ample opportunity for the follow ups.

FWIW, these techniques were not dreamed up in a hypothetical discussion: they were tried and tested in violent encounters in post-WW2 Korea.

Again, I wish you the best of luck in your concept for knife defense and I sincerely hope it works out as conceived for someone depending on it.

As for me, I'm going to stick with what I've been taught and train and hope I'm never put to the test. Knife attacks are always nasty business.

In any case, discussing ideas is what this forum is all about — but sometimes folks will just disagree :)
 

zDom

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... instead of doing that, just reach out and kick the guy in the nads as hard as you can. Even with the cup on your going to get a reaction, it's normal, it's a vital target. It's one that every man knows hurts. You'll see a huge difference in how things happen. It all changes that instant. I've kicked guys close to the groin and missed the testicles all together, and had them doubled over swearing I kicked them in there fun bag. ...

Ok, once back in my more foolish and drunken days before I started training martial arts (we won't go into the details ...), I had a HUGE bouncer (6 foot 3 inches or so, athletic build of about 260) do exactly what you are proposing.

He TRIED to kick me in the nuts. His foot stopped in its upward arc about an inch below my testicles. His eyes bugged out in complete surprise for the millisecond before I punched him square in his teeth.

I was later informed by law enforcment officers that that bouncer ended up in the hospital. What if I had been a knife wielder instead? That one stab to the face would have been the end for him.

You can't depend on a kick to the nuts. Ergo, trading nut kicks for stabs banking that you are going to end the fight with said kick is a BAD idea.
 
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"throwing the attacker to the ground hurts them worse and with more certainty than any single strike." Its the striking getting you there in the first place and the reason for the dump or drop... It is my feeling that nothing is given and you must strike targets to compromise and control and that means throwing or dumping and breaking or joint manipultaion...
If I step through your base with my forearm to the trachea, the effected body will most likely fly straight back on thier tooshy and damage thier coccyx before banging the back of thier head on ground...maybe breaking a wrist or finger from attempting to mitigate the fall... a "throw" or drop or dump is a gravitational injury thats practically accomplished from striking targets... I want a guarantee for every situation not a probability for some or most situations... body weight strikes with rotation and projection through the base gets me everywhere I want to be... wether its dumping someones back onto my knee or smashing through a hip joint... its all about striking...

As far as the kick to the "jacobs"... if you fumble of flop over a kick then no..you may get a slight reaction due to discomfort or pain but not a significant reflex action to set up a chain... now if I take that same leg and srtike up and through the base of the threat with the toe boot or shin to the same target , I will bank on a different reaction and the fact that once the striking leg lands it will be past the axis point in between the legs and someones getting thier eyes rammed and dumped on the ground... I would rather get a full body weight swing with a sledgehammer on a brick wall than throwing it at it with all my might.
Sometimes the groin is all you got and you have to learn how to make it work for you when you need it, same with all the other vital targets... They do work if executed correctly becuase they lead to something else and so on...
 

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Ok, once back in my more foolish and drunken days before I started training martial arts (we won't go into the details ...), I had a HUGE bouncer (6 foot 3 inches or so, athletic build of about 260) do exactly what you are proposing.

He TRIED to kick me in the nuts. His foot stopped in its upward arc about an inch below my testicles. His eyes bugged out in complete surprise for the millisecond before I punched him square in his teeth.

I was later informed by law enforcment officers that that bouncer ended up in the hospital. What if I had been a knife wielder instead? That one stab to the face would have been the end for him.

You can't depend on a kick to the nuts. Ergo, trading nut kicks for stabs banking that you are going to end the fight with said kick is a BAD idea.

Either you have thighs of steel or your grossly exaggerating, or he wasn't commited, or there is another possibility........

He just as easily could have stuck his thumb two inches into your eyeball socket, and you'd of been going to the hospital. Guarantee you had he done that, you wouldn't have been busting anybody's teeth out.
 

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Either you have thighs of steel or your grossly exaggerating, or he wasn't commited, or there is another possibility........
Adrenaline and Fight/Flight parasympathetic response do really strange things to the body and brain. I've been nailed in the nuts and not had it do more than piss me off. Other times, I've taken a shot to the nuts and had it stop me cold. I know a guy who was rolling SD BJJ and actually had one of his testicles ruptured. He didn't know it until AFTER the sparring session when the pain and massive swelling set in.

When groin shots work, they work great. But you can't count on them, no way, no how.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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zDom

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"throwing the attacker to the ground hurts them worse and with more certainty than any single strike." Its the striking getting you there in the first place and the reason for the dump or drop... It is my feeling that nothing is given and you must strike targets to compromise and control and that means throwing or dumping and breaking or joint manipultaion...
If I step through your base with my forearm to the trachea, the effected body will most likely fly straight back on thier tooshy and damage thier coccyx before banging the back of thier head on ground...maybe breaking a wrist or finger from attempting to mitigate the fall... a "throw" or drop or dump is a gravitational injury thats practically accomplished from striking targets... I want a guarantee for every situation not a probability for some or most situations... body weight strikes with rotation and projection through the base gets me everywhere I want to be... wether its dumping someones back onto my knee or smashing through a hip joint... its all about striking...

As far as the kick to the "jacobs"... if you fumble of flop over a kick then no..you may get a slight reaction due to discomfort or pain but not a significant reflex action to set up a chain... now if I take that same leg and srtike up and through the base of the threat with the toe boot or shin to the same target , I will bank on a different reaction and the fact that once the striking leg lands it will be past the axis point in between the legs and someones getting thier eyes rammed and dumped on the ground... I would rather get a full body weight swing with a sledgehammer on a brick wall than throwing it at it with all my might.
Sometimes the groin is all you got and you have to learn how to make it work for you when you need it, same with all the other vital targets... They do work if executed correctly becuase they lead to something else and so on...


There's a lot of "if's" in there, Black Lion. And "If executed correctly" isn't something even the very best fighters can count on.

You want a guarantee? Sure, we ALL do. But there isn't one. Period.

And striking is definitely NOT surefire, even for the very best of strikers. If it was, boxing and MMA fights would be a lot shorter: first punch wins!

Striking, throwing, parries, blocks they ALL have their place in combat.


Recognizing when to use which tool WHILE IN COMBAT (not in imagined, "Well, I would just ..." scenarios) and being able to successfully USE that tool are what makes someone effective, ultimately, as a fighter.

Imagining "if does he X then I will just do Y" just doesn't always work out like we think it will. Really: it doesn't. Ask anybody who has EVER been in a dire close combat situation.

No battle plan survives contact with the enemy. Colin Powell (I think)
 

zDom

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Either you have thighs of steel or your grossly exaggerating, or he wasn't commited, or there is another possibility........

He just as easily could have stuck his thumb two inches into your eyeball socket, and you'd of been going to the hospital. Guarantee you had he done that, you wouldn't have been busting anybody's teeth out.



Yea: I bet he was thinking "I can just easily end this with a kick to his Jimmy" but how did THAT work out for him? Not so well.

That's a big, giant "if" there, GBlues, because it turns out: I wasn't the type of fella that stood still and let him insert his thumb into my eye.

And there was no exaggeration whatsoever. It was a committed kick. I got the idea he was seriously intending put an end not only to the fight, but also to the possibility of me ever having children.

There are NO "guarantees" in combat. He had his ideas but failed to execute them.

All we can hope for in training is to increase the odds increasingly in our favor. Select what you train accordingly and know, without doubt, that ANY of what you train may simply NOT WORK.

Train hard, hope for the best, and be prepared to deal with the worst. That's all any of us can do.
 

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All we can hope for in training is to increase the odds increasingly in our favor. Select what you train accordingly and know, without doubt, that ANY of what you train may simply NOT WORK.
This is why you hear some people yammer and drone on about "High Percentage Techniques."

In most instances simple is best and the more complex the response the more chances for it to break down. Sometimes you have no choice but the complex so you take it. Other times you have a choice.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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there are 2 ways you can approach it... basic and complex...

basic is= recognize the threat >>>> injure threat until nonexistent

complex is= recognize the threat>>>> does threat specific technique(s)>>>>injure threat until non-existent

the basic way cuts through all the variables and simplifies it to running down a man with a knife and injuring him to non-functionality

the complex way adds all the variables and confuses the simple fact that you need to run him down and take him out regardless of what tool he has...

Its the same with a gun... why overload a complex system with more complexity... simple is, running that man down or getting in there torso to torso and destroying them... the inanimate object is insignificant in the overall picture...

the only threat specific technique with any threat armed or unarmed is injury... you want to be the one doing it and you shouldnt settle for anything less... on a mental or physical level...
 

MJS

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there are 2 ways you can approach it... basic and complex...

basic is= recognize the threat >>>> injure threat until nonexistent

complex is= recognize the threat>>>> does threat specific technique(s)>>>>injure threat until non-existent

the basic way cuts through all the variables and simplifies it to running down a man with a knife and injuring him to non-functionality

the complex way adds all the variables and confuses the simple fact that you need to run him down and take him out regardless of what tool he has...

Its the same with a gun... why overload a complex system with more complexity... simple is, running that man down or getting in there torso to torso and destroying them... the inanimate object is insignificant in the overall picture...

the only threat specific technique with any threat armed or unarmed is injury... you want to be the one doing it and you shouldnt settle for anything less... on a mental or physical level...

Much like empty hand SD, I'm not looking for a specific technique when dealing with a weapon. Instead, I'm taking the ideas, concepts and principles from all of those things, and responding in the fashion that is apropriate at the time. Due to the fact that things can change in the blink of an eye, I don't want to be bound by 1 thing.

I also dont want to disregard the weapon, even though you dont agree with that, and instead rely on overwhelming the guy. I agree with the overwhelming, however, control needs to be there. I get the impression that you're thinking that if you have control, that you cant overwhelm the guy. I beg to differ.
 

Langenschwert

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The technique does not initiate with a "grab" at the weapon.

It places your forearm in between you and the attack while simultaneously throwing the attacker to the ground.

IMO, throwing the attacker to the ground hurts them worse and with more certainty than any single strike.

The keylock and disarm are follow ups to the initial response.

A prone attacker who has just fallen hard to their head/shoulders with the force of their bodyweight and rotation from the sweep is much more likely be stunned (brain "shut off") then having received any single strike from a hand or foot and should provide ample opportunity for the follow ups.

FWIW, these techniques were not dreamed up in a hypothetical discussion: they were tried and tested in violent encounters in post-WW2 Korea.

Again, I wish you the best of luck in your concept for knife defense and I sincerely hope it works out as conceived for someone depending on it.

As for me, I'm going to stick with what I've been taught and train and hope I'm never put to the test. Knife attacks are always nasty business.

In any case, discussing ideas is what this forum is all about but sometimes folks will just disagree :)

Ain't that the truth. So much modern knife defence is wishful thinking. You simply can't ignore the weapon. You'll get killed, plain and simple. In FMA, there's the admonition to "defang the snake". If you don't, you pay the price. The same techniques were used in medieval Europe. I'm sure you'll recognize them zDom. Take a look at these plates from Talhoffer's 1467 manual:

http://www.schielhau.org/taldagger.html

And his Ambraser Codex from 1459:

http://www.schielhau.org/talhoffer1459_ac_dagger.html

And Hundfeld: http://www.schielhau.org/hundfeld-dagger.html

Here's Fiore dei Liberi from 1410: http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/liberi/wildRose/section2.html

Note the principles involved: control the dagger at all costs to ensure safety and then kill the guy ASAP. Note the prevalence of joint locks. The difference between Talhoffer's techniques and those of some modern "experts" is that Talhoffer and his contemporaries are people who actually fought with knives, not modern armchair martial artists who've never been in a knife fight. I know people who've studied the medieval masters and who have used their techniques on the street in knife encounters and lived to tell the tale without a scratch (which is almost unheard of). The stuff works for real, it's been tested for real for centuries. Compared to those guys, we're a bunch of sewer snoids, and anything we think we know about knives (and fighting in general) doesn't amount to much in comparison.

Best regards,

-Mark
 

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