You WILL get cut if someone has a knife. I disagree....

Jared Traveler

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If I've heard it once, I've heard it a thousand times. The statement that you will get cut if you have to defend yourself against a knife. It is almost always spoken absolute terms. No question about it it will happen!!!

While I think it's very likely you will get cut, it is in my opinion in no way and absolute. Those types of absolutes do not exist in reality. I think most people stating this have very little idea the variety of situations someone might find themselves in when facing a knife.

Most attackers, almost all attackers that use a knife are not using a professional fighting knife. It's typically a dull kitchen knife, or a very cheap "truck stop" pocket knife. And many of them have never even thought of using a knife before that moment, when in a fit of rage, they grabbed one to attack someone. They almost certainly haven't trained to use it. In many cases they are using the knife because they are at a physical disadvantage to the person they are attacking. Often very impaired on alcohol or drugs.

Don't misunderstand me these situations are wildly dangerous, and you certainly can be killed it and badly injured by these people. I think you're expecting to be cut is certain realistic. But preaching that you will inevitably be cut, despite the fact that you have trained in weapons disarms, I don't agree with.

I understand the statement is intended to mentally prepare people for being cut to happen, and to keep fighting. But in my opinion it lowers their expectation, on what can be done. Throwing in the towel before the fight even begins. It certainly is possible, and at times very realistic to disarm somebody with a knife in a real situation without being cut.

Just thinking is just a very little step down, from another common idea that there is no realistic defense against a knife. I understand that you're dangerous, but this is not a good way to think. You don't want to be overconfident, but you don't want to convince yourself at all situations involving knife or hopeless.

What are your thoughts on the realities of dealing with knife attacks?
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I understand the statement is intended to mentally prepare people for being cut to happen, and to keep fighting. But in my opinion it lowers their expectation, on what can be done. Throwing in the towel before the fight even begins. It certainly is possible, and at times very realistic to disarm somebody with a knife in a real situation without being cut.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. I've never heard anyone use that phrase and literally mean that if you get into a knife fight you will 100% no matter what get cut. It's much more just to prepare you so that if you do get cut, you do not freak out about it in the moment, and to help people learn to minimize the amount of damage potential cuts can do (ie twisting your arm when you block so you don't get your arteries sliced).
 

Holmejr

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Im with MTW, Ive only heard it in the context of possibility or even distinct possibility, but not inevitability.
 

JowGaWolf

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What are your thoughts on the realities of dealing with knife attacks?
For me the answer is. "You're going to get cut. Just like in a fist fight You're gonna get punched. Now with that in mind., what is the person going to do to minimize the damage? Knife strikes are designed to hold the hand and arm in specific positions to help minimize the damage.
Fight as if you will get punched. Fight as if you will get cut. Both are better than fighting as if no one can harm you.
 
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Jared Traveler

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For me the answer is. "You're going to get cut. Just like in a fist fight You're gonna get punched. Now with that in mind., what is the person going to do to minimize the damage? Knife strikes are designed to hold the hand and arm in specific positions to help minimize the damage.
Fight as if you will get punched. Fight as if you will get cut. Both are better than fighting as if no one can harm you.
Another context I hear absolutes in is when firing a gun in self-defense. "You will not use your sights in a gunfight," is a phrase I have heard so many times. This is simply not a fact. Many will not, but some can.

But when people believe this, they don't even try to use theirs sights. This is the danger in thinking in absolutes like this. It can demotivate students to even try.
 

drop bear

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Another context I hear absolutes in is when firing a gun in self-defense. "You will not use your sights in a gunfight," is a phrase I have heard so many times. This is simply not a fact. Many will not, but some can.

But when people believe this, they don't even try to use theirs sights. This is the danger in thinking in absolutes like this. It can demotivate students to even try.

Yeah. I call this story based training.

Self defence is chock full of this kind of thing.
 

Buka

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And if BOTH people have a knife.....

Either he gets cut and you don't.
Or you get cut and he doesn't.
Or you both get cut.
Or neither of you get cut and were just showing your knives to each other because you're a couple of dick heads. :)
 

Rich Parsons

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If I've heard it once, I've heard it a thousand times. The statement that you will get cut if you have to defend yourself against a knife. It is almost always spoken absolute terms. No question about it it will happen!!!
I have heard it this way many times, not always.

While I think it's very likely you will get cut, it is in my opinion in no way and absolute. Those types of absolutes do not exist in reality. I think most people stating this have very little idea the variety of situations someone might find themselves in when facing a knife.
I agree Absolutes usually are not something that one can count on in dealing with violence and human beings.
Other than chaos or change is the only constant I truly know.

Most attackers, almost all attackers that use a knife are not using a professional fighting knife. It's typically a dull kitchen knife, or a very cheap "truck stop" pocket knife. And many of them have never even thought of using a knife before that moment, when in a fit of rage, they grabbed one to attack someone. They almost certainly haven't trained to use it. In many cases they are using the knife because they are at a physical disadvantage to the person they are attacking. Often very impaired on alcohol or drugs.

I am not sure about your statements.
Some study the shanking videos out there. And they practice.
Random drunk college kid home from school, or domestic (either way) they might not have any training or experience.

As to physical disadvantage, not always the case, from what I saw when I was in the game a few decades ago.
And other than drunk college guy, most were not drunk or on drugs or at least not recognizable.

Mileage will vary I guess as it has between us.


Don't misunderstand me these situations are wildly dangerous, and you certainly can be killed it and badly injured by these people. I think you're expecting to be cut is certain realistic. But preaching that you will inevitably be cut, despite the fact that you have trained in weapons disarms, I don't agree with.

If taken from the mindset there is always someone stronger/ faster / younger / bigger / smaller / better / ... then it is being used in the mindset that in a confrontation one will be hit. Maybe not a horrible knock out nor even a damaging blow, yet getting hit.
Yet, the multiplier for the knife requires little strength and little contact to break the skin.

I understand the statement is intended to mentally prepare people for being cut to happen, and to keep fighting. But in my opinion it lowers their expectation, on what can be done. Throwing in the towel before the fight even begins. It certainly is possible, and at times very realistic to disarm somebody with a knife in a real situation without being cut.

So every Boxer that says when you step in the ring you will get hit is also wrong?
I agree with the absolute issue.
I agree it can affect some , yet if it truly is such an issue, then I wonder if any competition combat needs to say don't worry you might not get hit.

Just thinking is just a very little step down, from another common idea that there is no realistic defense against a knife. I understand that you're dangerous, but this is not a good way to think. You don't want to be overconfident, but you don't want to convince yourself at all situations involving knife or hopeless.

There are basics that can be done against the untrained and the partial trained.
There are training methods that allow for more advanced assaults to be addressed, with minimum to nil loss.
There are also little to no way to stop the sewing machine assassination. Wait, yes, it can be addressed if seen or squared off or prepared.
But, Rich what about the sucker punch, you can't stop against that either?
And it is hard to stop the random assault, unless one is on point / aware most of the time, or more often in higher threat areas / regions.

What are your thoughts on the realities of dealing with knife attacks?

A couple of questions and then my thoughts an summary.

Do you train foam, rubber (flex), rubber (stiff), wood, metal or real dulled edge, or real (Scotch) tapped edge or under real control situations an actual real blade?

Many people will not even handle the real blade and attack you. Yet, if worked up to it they can process the thought. Even if it is dull, (risk of thrust) , or tapped (risk of thrust / paper cut type of cuts )

First, I agree with most of what you say , and I think you have fallen into the most / almost always issue as well, knowing what you mean, not how it reads. Not a bad thing, not a real issue, only pointing it out as you asked for opinions.

Next I tell people they will get hit. empty hand and with a knife. Pay attention.

For me getting to such a position can be a failure of multiple levels. Awareness, location, associates, other.

Note: I have never been in an actual knife fight. If they had a knife and I could get a knife, screw driver , or other improvised tool, it never came to confrontation as they no longer had the advantage. (See above about how I do not think it is for disadvantage, it is more to get an advantage in my experience and opinion. )

I have been up and down and rolling and being kicked and hit and returning what I can against multiple opponents and even gone through a plate glass window with an over sized for most, yet proper size for me, balisong in the back jeans pocket. As when I was up and could obtain the threat was not there to justify. When the treat was there including one them having a knife, I was too busy reacting and dealing with issues then trying to even the threat.

Yes, there is a lot of basics for stepping offline and cam-ing the thrusting hand offline, or passing / parrying. It takes time and exposure to get comfortable and to also learn timing and adjusting. Not Speed, timing.

One needs to understand control of the opponent and limiting their responses. Also counter strikes that have high response from the opponent.

So on to my Rules for everything.

Rule 1) Avoidance
Rule 2) See Rule #1

It is simple and many will scoff it off.
Avoid the break down in the bad part of town, drive around.
Low on gas, treat half a tank of gas as empty and then always able to have the fuel to go around.

Pay attention to the area, and take precautions.
Park under lights and easy access from entrance exit of buildings.

Avoid hanging with that one guy that is always loud and wants to test themselves, knowing they have "Friends" to cash the checks the write. And it you still go out explain to them that you will not come to their aid of the do get into trouble. And make sure everyone hears. it. One would be surprise how many more also are tired of the shenanigans.

And if actions happens, let the opponents know that he is on his own, as long as they keep it one on one and stop when he can't move any more.
The opponents hear this, and they begin to think if you would do this with people you are out with what would you do to them.
It also re-enforces everyone around you that they are on their own. And you tell the others to stay out as you will not help them for helping the jerk.

Many many more instances.

The common theme is avoiding something. Including getting into the confrontation or going to locations that are more likely to have them. It avoids engaging, until you no longer can avoid it. When types like yourself (OP) show up and start asking questions, and you explain you left and they followed, and you tried telling them you were gone, and they still choose to engage. It is the truth.


That being said, still train hard, and be prepared for whatever level threat level ones to be.
Empty hand, blunt / impact , edged (short / long ) , flexible , multiple opponents, ... competition only .

As Clint once said in a movie, A man must know is limitations. This is true, and also their happiness. If training something doesn't make someone happy or feel better than before they are very likely to not continue.
So no discouragement meant to anyone at all here.

Please go train in the art / style you want and to the level you feel comfortable.

Peace
 

isshinryuronin

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Most attackers, almost all attackers that use a knife are not using a professional fighting knife. It's typically a dull kitchen knife, or a very cheap "truck stop" pocket knife. And many of them have never even thought of using a knife before that moment, when in a fit of rage, they grabbed one to attack someone. They almost certainly haven't trained to use it.
I think you may be underestimating the potential for lethal attackers. You may be right regarding domestic situations. On the street I will probably be more apt to face a knife attacker that has plans for his knife (professional or dull) and is mentally prepared to use it, than some random guy flying into a rage at me. (I'm not the kind of guy people get really pissed off at.) So, I'm taking the position that the knife wielder has premeditated intent, and at least some will and skill to put it into action.
It's much more just to prepare you so that if you do get cut, you do not freak out about it in the moment, and to help people learn to minimize the amount of damage potential cuts can do
"Prepare for the worse, hope for the best." There is much less margin of error with a knife. A deflected or off target punch poses little danger, not so much with a knife. And one may be able to take a punch in order to give one, not so much with a knife. Having a strong respect for a knife attacker and assuming the strong chance of getting cut is by no means, "throwing in the towel." IMO.
 
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Jared Traveler

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I think you may be underestimating the potential for lethal attackers. You may be right regarding domestic situations. On the street I will probably be more apt to face a knife attacker that has plans for his knife (professional or dull) and is mentally prepared to use it, than some random guy flying into a rage at me. (I'm not the kind of guy people get really pissed off at.) So, I'm taking the position that the knife wielder has premeditated intent, and at least some will and skill to put it into action.

"Prepare for the worse, hope for the best." There is much less margin of error with a knife. A deflected or off target punch poses little danger, not so much with a knife. And one may be able to take a punch in order to give one, not so much with a knife. Having a strong respect for a knife attacker and assuming the strong chance of getting cut is by no means, "throwing in the towel." IMO.
Isshinryuronin you bring up a great point, regarding statistics. To me statistics primarily tell me about other people. It's an opportunity to reflect on if this applies to me or not. Based on your lifestyle, you may very well be unlikely to experience a knife attack like someone else might experience it. I totally understand and agree with this logic.
 

Bill Mattocks

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What are your thoughts on the realities of dealing with knife attacks?
I'm not good at it and I'm likely to get cut. I had a single seminar with a member of MT and I was more than humbled. My skills, such as they are, are not equipped to deal with a real knife fighter. They move differently than I expect and it opens me up to all kinds of attacks.

Therefore, my choices are to try to get good at knife defense, or try to avoid knives. I choose the latter. I don't carry one; I'm not good enough to avoid having it taken from me and used against me. I don't want to die on my own blade; how embarrassing would that be.

I'll stick to punching and kicking. I'm fairly good at that. Not great, but I get by. And I like hitting people.
 

Rich Parsons

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I'm not good at it and I'm likely to get cut. I had a single seminar with a member of MT and I was more than humbled. My skills, such as they are, are not equipped to deal with a real knife fighter. They move differently than I expect and it opens me up to all kinds of attacks.

Therefore, my choices are to try to get good at knife defense, or try to avoid knives. I choose the latter. I don't carry one; I'm not good enough to avoid having it taken from me and used against me. I don't want to die on my own blade; how embarrassing would that be.

I'll stick to punching and kicking. I'm fairly good at that. Not great, but I get by. And I like hitting people.

Bill,

If you want to get together and work on some basics I have that can improve the odds (Some) we can set up a day and time.
At the club you use, your back yard, the club I use, or somewhere in between. :)

Just to friends getting together to work out a little.
 

Bill Mattocks

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Bill,

If you want to get together and work on some basics I have that can improve the odds (Some) we can set up a day and time.
At the club you use, your back yard, the club I use, or somewhere in between. :)

Just to friends getting together to work out a little.
LOL, I sincerely appreciate that! I miss our little chats at work. At the moment, my life is segmented into very small chunks; I have to get through my upcoming heart surgery before making any plans.

But my thoughts on knife defense are that a 'little' training is more dangerous than none; it builds confidence one should not have. If one's not going to commit to serious and ongoing training, as you and our mutual friends with blades have, it's not something to play with.
 
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Jared Traveler

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LOL, I sincerely appreciate that! I miss our little chats at work. At the moment, my life is segmented into very small chunks; I have to get through my upcoming heart surgery before making any plans.

But my thoughts on knife defense are that a 'little' training is more dangerous than none; it builds confidence one should not have. If one's not going to commit to serious and ongoing training, as you and our mutual friends with blades have, it's not something to play with.
I certainly agree that false confidence is a real danger. However it is my belief that for most people, defending against a knife is a situation that chooses them, not something you choose. And in those situations you will have to defend yourself regardless if you have no training, some training or a lot of training.
 

Rich Parsons

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LOL, I sincerely appreciate that! I miss our little chats at work. At the moment, my life is segmented into very small chunks; I have to get through my upcoming heart surgery before making any plans.

But my thoughts on knife defense are that a 'little' training is more dangerous than none; it builds confidence one should not have. If one's not going to commit to serious and ongoing training, as you and our mutual friends with blades have, it's not something to play with.

The training is not based around making one a knife fighter.
They are some basic gross motor movements designed for someone who doesn't train in any art.
And is usually ignored as it is simple and boring to practice.

It is not meant to make you great or unstoppable.
It is designed to help you create and maintain space with your pocket knife/ box cutter / kitchen knife.

As you ( and mot others know ) there is no one thing that is absolute. And not trying to say it will provide confidence to want to engage.
Only some insight if forced to engage.

Yet, medical and health are important.
If your mind changes. let me know. :)
 

Rich Parsons

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I certainly agree that false confidence is a real danger. However it is my belief that for most people, defending against a knife is a situation that chooses them, not something you choose. And in those situations you will have to defend yourself regardless if you have no training, some training or a lot of training.

I agree that false confidence is bad.
I also was not trying to provide the simple course and cert and claim people are "safe".
I have turned down so many who just wanted that to feel safe. I could not do it. Not only unethical, it was dangerous.

This was my offer to Bill.
I probably should have made in privately.

My apologies for thread drift.
 

drop bear

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I'm not good at it and I'm likely to get cut. I had a single seminar with a member of MT and I was more than humbled. My skills, such as they are, are not equipped to deal with a real knife fighter. They move differently than I expect and it opens me up to all kinds of attacks.

Therefore, my choices are to try to get good at knife defense, or try to avoid knives. I choose the latter. I don't carry one; I'm not good enough to avoid having it taken from me and used against me. I don't want to die on my own blade; how embarrassing would that be.

I'll stick to punching and kicking. I'm fairly good at that. Not great, but I get by. And I like hitting people.

I don't think punching and kicking is an unreasonable knife defence to be honest.

Given almost nothing works. And there is a small chance you can punch or kick and finish before they get started it really is as good as any other method.
 
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