You WILL get cut if someone has a knife. I disagree....

Jimmythebull

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A shank in the prison system is typically a thin pointed weapon, often rounded and used for thrusting type of attacks. Thrust, pull, thrust, pull in rapid succession. Of course this can be accomplished with a traditional knife as well. Less or more easy based on blade design.
Yeah I wanna see some of these so called experts disarm a raging 220 Lb prisoner who knows the score with a shank. Ain't gonna happen in most cases
 

Gerry Seymour

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It doesn't matter. Even a not very sharp knife can do damage - I think it would just hurt more. And I doubt the attacker would be willing to let you examine his blade, anyway. Defensive tactics wouldn't change, IMO. More important than the sharpness of the knife is the sharpness of its wielder and defender.
Agreed. The point was about whether youre going to get cut every time, and of course a less-sharp knife is less likely to cut in incidental contact.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Yeah I wanna see some of these so called experts disarm a raging 220 Lb prisoner who knows the score with a shank. Ain't gonna happen in most cases
If someone shanks by surprise in close quarters with a strength advantage, most defenses would fail. But that doesnt mean you cant improve your odds a bit. And, of course, you can improve your odds more against lesser attacks.
 

Jimmythebull

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If someone shanks by surprise in close quarters with a strength advantage, most defenses would fail. But that doesnt mean you cant improve your odds a bit. And, of course, you can improve your odds more against lesser attacks.
Yes some training is better than none for example one video showing a realistic way to defend in escrima which I posted. Of course I'm not saying it's the only way but most Dojo knife defence is just bull. I mean Gerry you look a clean cut young man and against a raging Con with a shank I don't rate your chances. Sorry but that's the reality of it. I doubt if I would have any chance either...definitely come away injured.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Yes some training is better than none for example one video showing a realistic way to defend in escrima which I posted. Of course I'm not saying it's the only way but most Dojo knife defence is just bull. I mean Gerry you look a clean cut young man and against a raging Con with a shank I don't rate your chances. Sorry but that's the reality of it. I doubt if I would have any chance either...definitely come away injured.
Thanks for calling me young. LOL

As for the rest, that someone looks clean-cut isn't really a great measure of their danger. There are some really clean-cut military folks out there who would mess me up on my scruffiest day.
 

Jimmythebull

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Thanks for calling me young. LOL

As for the rest, that someone looks clean-cut isn't really a great measure of their danger. There are some really clean-cut military folks out there who would mess me up on my scruffiest day.
Was just fun Gerry.
 

GreenieMeanie

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I have heard it this way many times, not always.


I agree Absolutes usually are not something that one can count on in dealing with violence and human beings.
Other than chaos or change is the only constant I truly know.



I am not sure about your statements.
Some study the shanking videos out there. And they practice.
Random drunk college kid home from school, or domestic (either way) they might not have any training or experience.

As to physical disadvantage, not always the case, from what I saw when I was in the game a few decades ago.
And other than drunk college guy, most were not drunk or on drugs or at least not recognizable.

Mileage will vary I guess as it has between us.




If taken from the mindset there is always someone stronger/ faster / younger / bigger / smaller / better / ... then it is being used in the mindset that in a confrontation one will be hit. Maybe not a horrible knock out nor even a damaging blow, yet getting hit.
Yet, the multiplier for the knife requires little strength and little contact to break the skin.



So every Boxer that says when you step in the ring you will get hit is also wrong?
I agree with the absolute issue.
I agree it can affect some , yet if it truly is such an issue, then I wonder if any competition combat needs to say don't worry you might not get hit.



There are basics that can be done against the untrained and the partial trained.
There are training methods that allow for more advanced assaults to be addressed, with minimum to nil loss.
There are also little to no way to stop the sewing machine assassination. Wait, yes, it can be addressed if seen or squared off or prepared.
But, Rich what about the sucker punch, you can't stop against that either?
And it is hard to stop the random assault, unless one is on point / aware most of the time, or more often in higher threat areas / regions.



A couple of questions and then my thoughts an summary.

Do you train foam, rubber (flex), rubber (stiff), wood, metal or real dulled edge, or real (Scotch) tapped edge or under real control situations an actual real blade?

Many people will not even handle the real blade and attack you. Yet, if worked up to it they can process the thought. Even if it is dull, (risk of thrust) , or tapped (risk of thrust / paper cut type of cuts )

First, I agree with most of what you say , and I think you have fallen into the most / almost always issue as well, knowing what you mean, not how it reads. Not a bad thing, not a real issue, only pointing it out as you asked for opinions.

Next I tell people they will get hit. empty hand and with a knife. Pay attention.

For me getting to such a position can be a failure of multiple levels. Awareness, location, associates, other.

Note: I have never been in an actual knife fight. If they had a knife and I could get a knife, screw driver , or other improvised tool, it never came to confrontation as they no longer had the advantage. (See above about how I do not think it is for disadvantage, it is more to get an advantage in my experience and opinion. )

I have been up and down and rolling and being kicked and hit and returning what I can against multiple opponents and even gone through a plate glass window with an over sized for most, yet proper size for me, balisong in the back jeans pocket. As when I was up and could obtain the threat was not there to justify. When the treat was there including one them having a knife, I was too busy reacting and dealing with issues then trying to even the threat.

Yes, there is a lot of basics for stepping offline and cam-ing the thrusting hand offline, or passing / parrying. It takes time and exposure to get comfortable and to also learn timing and adjusting. Not Speed, timing.

One needs to understand control of the opponent and limiting their responses. Also counter strikes that have high response from the opponent.

So on to my Rules for everything.

Rule 1) Avoidance
Rule 2) See Rule #1

It is simple and many will scoff it off.
Avoid the break down in the bad part of town, drive around.
Low on gas, treat half a tank of gas as empty and then always able to have the fuel to go around.

Pay attention to the area, and take precautions.
Park under lights and easy access from entrance exit of buildings.

Avoid hanging with that one guy that is always loud and wants to test themselves, knowing they have "Friends" to cash the checks the write. And it you still go out explain to them that you will not come to their aid of the do get into trouble. And make sure everyone hears. it. One would be surprise how many more also are tired of the shenanigans.

And if actions happens, let the opponents know that he is on his own, as long as they keep it one on one and stop when he can't move any more.
The opponents hear this, and they begin to think if you would do this with people you are out with what would you do to them.
It also re-enforces everyone around you that they are on their own. And you tell the others to stay out as you will not help them for helping the jerk.

Many many more instances.

The common theme is avoiding something. Including getting into the confrontation or going to locations that are more likely to have them. It avoids engaging, until you no longer can avoid it. When types like yourself (OP) show up and start asking questions, and you explain you left and they followed, and you tried telling them you were gone, and they still choose to engage. It is the truth.


That being said, still train hard, and be prepared for whatever level threat level ones to be.
Empty hand, blunt / impact , edged (short / long ) , flexible , multiple opponents, ... competition only .

As Clint once said in a movie, A man must know is limitations. This is true, and also their happiness. If training something doesn't make someone happy or feel better than before they are very likely to not continue.
So no discouragement meant to anyone at all here.

Please go train in the art / style you want and to the level you feel comfortable.

Peace

I don't specifically disagree with anything you've said...however, if you're dealing with someone who knows where to stab, switches hands, and can do so with speed and precision...I would bet, your interaction with that individual, was either the result of a poor life choice(s), or an occupational hazard.
 

Buka

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Yes some training is better than none for example one video showing a realistic way to defend in escrima which I posted. Of course I'm not saying it's the only way but most Dojo knife defence is just bull. I mean Gerry you look a clean cut young man and against a raging Con with a shank I don't rate your chances. Sorry but that's the reality of it. I doubt if I would have any chance either...definitely come away injured.
As for Dojo knife defense being bull, I don't know if that's the case everywhere, but it sure as hell was with the Dojo I first trained in a zillion years ago. And I don't mean just slightly bad, I mean deplorable.

Thank God none of us had to carry out what we were taught, it would have been very foolish deaths.
 

drop bear

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Agreed. There's a lot I think is misunderstood in the teaching of these set-ups. They serve a different purpose today than they did when they were used against swordsmen.

I don't think so. We can look at sword fighting grappling through things like hema or dog brothers. And the concepts are very similar.

Obviously there are some weapon entanglements that goes on but otherwise.....


By the way sword guy possibly did have time to get a shot off before he hit the deck but didn't because he was freaking out.

I have found this to be the case a bit

Now it is not always going to work. But it probably works as well as being able to catch a guys knife arm out of mid air.

But I think that changes the dynamics of knife fights a bit.
 
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Buka

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I don't think so. We can look at sword fighting grappling through things like hema or dog brothers. And the concepts are very similar.

Obviously there are some weapon entanglements that goes on but otherwise.....


By the way sword guy possibly did have time to get a shot off before he hit the deck but didn't because he was freaking out.

I have found this to be the case a bit

Now it is not always going to work. But it probably works as well as being able to catch a guys knife arm out of mid air.

But I think that changes the dynamics of knife fights a bit.
That was a sweet takedown.
 

drop bear

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As for Dojo knife defense being bull, I don't know if that's the case everywhere, but it sure as hell was with the Dojo I first trained in a zillion years ago. And I don't mean just slightly bad, I mean deplorable.

Thank God none of us had to carry out what we were taught, it would have been very foolish deaths.

Yeah. There is this story told where someone walks in to a bjj club or something with a trainer and halfway through rolling pulls it out and yells "reality" or something.

And the thing is I could probably walk in to 90% of gyms be they knife fighters or not. Show them the knife then go for them and still be successful.
 

Rich Parsons

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I don't specifically disagree with anything you've said...however, if you're dealing with someone who knows where to stab, switches hands, and can do so with speed and precision...I would bet, your interaction with that individual, was either the result of a poor life choice(s), or an occupational hazard.

GreenieMeanie,
Can you explain the usage of However?
It is used per the definition
"adverb

  1. 1.
    used to introduce a statement that contrasts with or seems to contradict something that has been said previously."


So are disagreeing with yourself or with me?
Either way cool and yes, Choices matter.
 

GreenieMeanie

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GreenieMeanie,
Can you explain the usage of However?
It is used per the definition
"adverb

  1. 1.
    used to introduce a statement that contrasts with or seems to contradict something that has been said previously."


So are disagreeing with yourself or with me?
Either way cool and yes, Choices matter.
I am pleasantly stunned by being talked to this way, never seen it.

Its not so much a matter of disagreeing or contrasting, as preemptively avoiding a time-wasting argument, over something I didnt say.which happens frequently for me.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I don't think so. We can look at sword fighting grappling through things like hema or dog brothers. And the concepts are very similar.

Obviously there are some weapon entanglements that goes on but otherwise.....


By the way sword guy possibly did have time to get a shot off before he hit the deck but didn't because he was freaking out.

I have found this to be the case a bit

Now it is not always going to work. But it probably works as well as being able to catch a guys knife arm out of mid air.

But I think that changes the dynamics of knife fights a bit.
Perhaps I wasnt clear. If Im holding an arm that is connected to a sword, there are movements that arent useful because of the swords position (either danger of the sharp end, or it just getting in the way). And there may also be directions I can love in to use the weight and leverage of the sword.

Those forms were designed around that context. The entries served that context (how well, I cant speak to, as Im not trained in sword disarms).

In empty-hand fighting, they dont serve that purpose. They do contain some principles that can be used well for things like grip-fighting and gaining position, and are best taught to that end.
 

Rich Parsons

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I am pleasantly stunned by being talked to this way, never seen it.

Its not so much a matter of disagreeing or contrasting, as preemptively avoiding a time-wasting argument, over something I didnt say.which happens frequently for me.
You mean people quote you out of context?
You mean people only read a word or two and go down a rabbit hole?
On the internet you say. :eek:

**
Seriously, I did not mean to have this go down a rabbit hole, The had to read what you wrote a few times and it all came back to usage ot "however".
Like I said either way cool.
It is the internet :D

Peace and thank you
 

Holmejr

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I see, thanks

Actually I saw those on tv, I was amazed how fast they can stick it over and over. I actually practice that like punching with one hand, just keep sticking/punching. I notice at the beginning, I could do it very slow because I don't get use to it. But after a few days, I can do it faster. Just practice. On the heavy bag, I practice low-high-low 3 thrust in a roll.
Now try defending against it. We call that speed building.
 

Holmejr

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Yeah I wanna see some of these so called experts disarm a raging 220 Lb prisoner who knows the score with a shank. Ain't gonna happen in most cases
Defense against a trained knife fighter is daunting. They will counter your defense, jam you, use their free hand to clear. Difficult if not impossible. An untrained perp that only knows thrusting is easier to deal with. We speed train the thrust at random angles until our instructor call out lock which can mean lock, break, disarm, etc. This has to be accomplished is 3 seconds or less. New students tend to flinch, breath erratic and panic. In time, they learn to control their reaction, allowing for more vigorous training. Challenging and fun.
 
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