Wing Chun vs MMA

[Juany118]

Your point seems to be that a street fight won't be determined by the training that someone has done.

And that is plainly false.

Part 1
No what I am saying is that training alone is not the only factor. You can have two people who study the same art, one being higher rank with better technique in sparring and competition BUT irl fight when you get that adrenalin dump from the lizard brain saying "ooops we might freaking die/get maimed here" loses to the person who can handle that stress better but is inferior in training. You do not only have to add this ability to deal with stress but also tactical sense. If you primarily strike facing a person who primarily grapples, if both of you deal with stress equally well, who is better tactically. Is the striker better at keeping the grappler out side trapping/grappling range? Is the grappler better at manipulating the striker into a corner so they can't maintain the distance? Which one has, for lack of a better term, the warrior mindset/killer instinct? These are facts of real life hostile encounters that all the training in a gym/martial art school can't teach.

These factors are equally important to the art you know. If it wouldn't there wouldn't be so many stories of experienced street fighters with no formal training beating trained martial artists. These guys are winning by fighting techniques, they are winning because they can deal with the stress, have a tactical sense and situational awareness that allows them to maximize their strength and minimize their weaknesses and have the warrior mind set so that in a real fight they don't pull their punches.

 

[Juany118]

Part 2

I think the stress and tactical/situational awareness issue are the most overlooked. Everyone gets killer instinct (I think).

The stress of a real fight where you primitive brain considers death is often not engaged even in competition like Sanctioned MMA. There is a referee to call the fight, stop illegal moves, heck you can see how some fighters purposefully use the pause between rounds strategically. These factors lower your brains perception of danger so that adrenalin rush usually doesn't kick in until you are getting your *** handed to you. As such people that even do full contact professional fighting are often not prepared to deal with it. People like Mike Tyson who channeled the violence of their everyday life into boxing are clearly among the exceptions.

Next tactics and situational awareness. In that ring you don't have to deal with furniture inside of a building, or the fact you may not be able to use extensive experience, like in a ring, to just where the wall is behind you based on the distance to the wall in front. You don't have to deal with curbs (they can be a fight killer), fences, telephone poles, other people jumping in. In competitive fighting as well as sparring your only situational concern is really that guy in front of you. What kind of take downs can you do on concrete or hardwood, as opposed to mats or the ring, since some suitable in the later can injure you in the former.

Once you get this situational awareness you then need to figure out how to use that environment to maximize your strengths and disadvantage your opponent. These are all things training in any Art can't teach you. You need to cultivate these skills on your own and they are universally necessary on the street.

 

[drop bear]

Part 1
No what I am saying is that training alone is not the only factor. You can have two people who study the same art, one being higher rank with better technique in sparring and competition BUT irl fight when you get that adrenalin dump from the lizard brain saying "ooops we might freaking die/get maimed here" loses to the person who can handle that stress better but is inferior in training. You do not only have to add this ability to deal with stress but also tactical sense. If you primarily strike facing a person who primarily grapples, if both of you deal with stress equally well, who is better tactically. Is the striker better at keeping the grappler out side trapping/grappling range? Is the grappler better at manipulating the striker into a corner so they can't maintain the distance? Which one has, for lack of a better term, the warrior mindset/killer instinct? These are facts of real life hostile encounters that all the training in a gym/martial art school can't teach.

These factors are equally important to the art you know. If it wouldn't there wouldn't be so many stories of experienced street fighters with no formal training beating trained martial artists. These guys are winning by fighting techniques, they are winning because they can deal with the stress, have a tactical sense and situational awareness that allows them to maximize their strength and minimize their weaknesses and have the warrior mind set so that in a real fight they don't pull their punches.

And you feel that, that element is not reflected or adressed in training?

 

[Juany118]

And you feel that, that element is not reflected or adressed in training?

They can tell you it is important but telling you it is important and really preparing for it is on you. You, hopefully, through your training develop the muscle memory, which helps with the adrenalin dump. However does your class have you just sitting their practicing breathing exercises (like Aikido often does but not many) or is that on you? Do you practice with tools like masks or goggles to simulate the tunnel vision that also often comes with the adrenalin dump?

Do you train in a room you are not familiar with, that is full of furniture? Not only to void pitfalls but to force your opponent into a pitfall? If you don't actually train for it your instructor can tell you about it until they are blue in the face. It's little different that I simply describing Heaven Six in Kali and expecting someone to be able to do it, vs showing them and then having them practice.

It's why when the Military and PDs, when training building clearing will either build the buildings themselves and then fill em with furniture or use existing buildings that are unoccupied. Knowing how to enter a room with a potential threat doesn't mean much if you don't train to enter that room when their maybe a sofa there that you can trip over or that the bad guy can hide behind.

If you do this training on your own good for you. If your instructor makes you develop these skills you are definitely getting your money's worth. These skills however are not part of any specific Martial Art, they are generic and apply to all forms of combat, not just the martial arts. If you have these skills and another well trained martial artists doesn't, in a real fight you are most likely to win.

 

[drop bear]

They can tell you it is important but telling you it is important and really preparing for it is on you. You, hopefully, through your training develop the muscle memory, which helps with the adrenalin dump. However does your class have you just sitting their practicing breathing exercises (like Aikido often does but not many) or is that on you? Do you practice with tools like masks or goggles to simulate the tunnel vision that also often comes with the adrenalin dump?

Do you train in a room you are not familiar with, that is full of furniture? Not only to void pitfalls but to force your opponent into a pitfall? If you don't actually train for it your instructor can tell you about it until they are blue in the face. It's little different that I simply describing Heaven Six in Kali and expecting someone to be able to do it, vs showing them and then having them practice.

It's why when the Military and PDs, when training building clearing will either build the buildings themselves and then fill em with furniture or use existing buildings that are unoccupied. Knowing how to enter a room with a potential threat doesn't mean much if you don't train to enter that room when their maybe a sofa there that you can trip over or that the bad guy can hide behind.

If you do this training on your own good for you. If your instructor makes you develop these skills you are definitely getting your money's worth. These skills however are not part of any specific Martial Art, they are generic and apply to all forms of combat, not just the martial arts. If you have these skills and another well trained martial artists doesn't, in a real fight you are most likely to win.

Which would be examples of those issues being reflected or addressed in training.

And yes for the most part.

 

[Juany118]

Which would be examples of those issues being reflected or addressed in training.

And yes for the most part.

You are missing the point that I am trying to make however. These skills have NOTHING to do specifically with MMA, Karate, Wing Chu, TKD, Jujutsu etc. These are Universal skills of combat used whether you are unarmed, have a sword, or an M4, it simply doesn't matter. As such they don't say "this particular martial art is better" they simply create a better "fighter" regardless of what art they are trained in. This is why I say it is largely futile to try and argue which Martial Art is "the best". Lets say there is a best Martial art, if the other guy is better dealing with stress and tactics/situational awareness, they win. If you maybe don't deal with tactics as well (though you still have a clue and don't fall apart under stress) BUT you are willing to not just say but also feel inside you "KILL!!!!!!!!!!!!" and your opponent can't say that, you have a better chance of winning. The Martial Art is only as good as the foundation it is built upon. That foundation is built upon the near infinite complications that make up the human body and psyche.

 

[drop bear]

You are missing the point that I am trying to make however. These skills have NOTHING to do specifically with MMA, Karate, Wing Chu, TKD, Jujutsu etc. These are Universal skills of combat used whether you are unarmed, have a sword, or an M4, it simply doesn't matter. As such they don't say "this particular martial art is better" they simply create a better "fighter" regardless of what art they are trained in. This is why I say it is largely futile to try and argue which Martial Art is "the best". Lets say there is a best Martial art, if the other guy is better dealing with stress and tactics/situational awareness, they win. If you maybe don't deal with tactics as well (though you still have a clue and don't fall apart under stress) BUT you are willing to not just say but also feel inside you "KILL!!!!!!!!!!!!" and your opponent can't say that, you have a better chance of winning. The Martial Art is only as good as the foundation it is built upon. That foundation is built upon the near infinite complications that make up the human body and psyche.

If you are defining universal skills of combat. Then you can create a system that that fills that role. Better than other systems. Then you can say this martial art is better.

So if you want to kill someone with an m4 or even a real gun like a styer. There will be better and worse ways of being trained to do that.

So you can absolutely compare systems.

A better system will be better regardless of the person doing it.

Now obviously there are some people who will be genetically better. And can be factored in. But this is in addition to good or bad training. It doesn't cancel that out.

And you chose specific training. Obviously it will be specific to the system you do.

 

[Juany118]

If you are defining universal skills of combat. Then you can create a system that that fills that role. Better than other systems. Then you can say this martial art is better.

So if you want to kill someone with an m4 or even a real gun like a styer. There will be better and worse ways of being trained to do that.

So you can absolutely compare systems.

A better system will be better regardless of the person doing it.

Now obviously there are some people who will be genetically better. And can be factored in. But this is in addition to good or bad training. It doesn't cancel that out.

Well I would say first that your M4 v Steyr comment shows an attitude emblematic throughout this thread, but with that said you completely miss something, especially since there is no better or worse way to fire a rifle accurately. There is sight picture, cheek well, trigger pull and breathing, that it, every combat rifle shares these basic characteristics, unlike martial arts which are more varied.

I get it, you have a near obsessive need to say "MMA is better", a dirty could come down from heaven, say you were wrong and your answer would be "then why aren't you in the octagon." regardless I will entertain your other point anyway before I go to sleep.

These other concepts that make a real fighter are already shared by every thinking human being if they want to fight. When someone learns these concepts to shoot it doesn't change what they do mechanically when they shoot. It simply means that they can control their breathing, and thus their heart rate, that they chose the primary threat first, that they utilize cover appropriately etc. You have not created a new school of marksmanship, all you have done is create a better fighter because that guy can apply these principles to their pistol, their knife fighting and unarmed combat.

If something can be applied to EVERY human being, regardless of their chosen art of combat, by definition you have not created a better art, only a better warrior, especially since some of them are more talents than skills (such as situational awareness). To create a superior martial art is to create maneuvers and skills that are innately superior.

Now this leads to the following question. Which I assume you will dodge as your tactic has been to cherry pick points of convenience. How do you quantify not just the effectiveness of actual techniques of a Martial arts in the real world but the X-factors I have laid out here... ability to cope with stress, tactical knowledge, situational awareness and "warrior mind set/killer instinct" in real combat?

Answer you can't. If you can't quantify something you can't declare it better. That is life.

 

[drop bear]

Now this leads to the following question. Which I assume you will dodge as your tactic has been to cherry pick points of convenience. How do you quantify not just the effectiveness of actual techniques of a Martial arts in the real world but the X-factors I have laid out here... ability to cope with stress, tactical knowledge, situational awareness and "warrior mind set/killer instinct" in real combat?

Answer you can't. If you can't quantify something you can't declare it better. That is life.

You declare it better on the things you can observe and then make assumptions based on that.

This becomes a silly argument. How does wing chun work against a bear?

If you say you don't know then you cannot say wing chun is effective..

And I am not cherry picking I am sticking to one point. You are diverting.

 

[drop bear]

I get it, you have a near obsessive need to say "MMA is better", a dirty could come down from heaven, say you were wrong and your answer would be "then why aren't you in the octagon." regardless I will entertain your other point anyway before I go to sleep.

You do know that Jesus loves knock outs?

 

[drop bear]

Well I would say first that your M4 v Steyr comment shows an attitude emblematic throughout this thread, but with that said you completely miss something, especially since there is no better or worse way to fire a rifle accurately. There is sight picture, cheek well, trigger pull and breathing, that it, every combat rifle shares these basic characteristics, unlike martial arts which are more varied.

Ok.this might be my best way to explain this.

There is no better or worse way to fire a rifle accurately?

 

[lklawson]

I am aware that throughout history people have tried to make the determination as to which Art was superior but in the end, it has proven to largely be an endless struggle. When talking about the old school fights that had far fewer rules than our society now expects for "competition" a fight would have someone declaring "art X has proven to be superior" but then a rematch or a match with different practitioners would throw that conclusion on its head. Of course the debate will always continue but I am a data driven guy. I drive my wife nuts sometimes when she will ask my opinion. Sometimes I have one, sometimes I say "I can't comment". She asks "why not" and I respond "because there isn't enough objective evidence for me to come to a conclusion one way or another." She then mumbles "okay Mr. Spock where are the pointy ears" and we change the topic.

hahaha This sounds eerily familiar. She Who Must Be Obeyed and I have had similar conversations more than once.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

The stress of a real fight where you primitive brain considers death is often not engaged even in competition like Sanctioned MMA. There is a referee to call the fight, stop illegal moves, heck you can see how some fighters purposefully use the pause between rounds strategically. These factors lower your brains perception of danger so that adrenalin rush usually doesn't kick in until you are getting your *** handed to you. As such people that even do full contact professional fighting are often not prepared to deal with it.

Interesting position. Do you have any studies to support this conclusion?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

They can tell you it is important but telling you it is important and really preparing for it is on you. You, hopefully, through your training develop the muscle memory, which helps with the adrenalin dump. However does your class have you just sitting their practicing breathing exercises (like Aikido often does but not many) or is that on you? Do you practice with tools like masks or goggles to simulate the tunnel vision that also often comes with the adrenalin dump?

Do you train in a room you are not familiar with, that is full of furniture? Not only to void pitfalls but to force your opponent into a pitfall? If you don't actually train for it your instructor can tell you about it until they are blue in the face. It's little different that I simply describing Heaven Six in Kali and expecting someone to be able to do it, vs showing them and then having them practice.

It's why when the Military and PDs, when training building clearing will either build the buildings themselves and then fill em with furniture or use existing buildings that are unoccupied. Knowing how to enter a room with a potential threat doesn't mean much if you don't train to enter that room when their maybe a sofa there that you can trip over or that the bad guy can hide behind.

Ummm... "that element is not reflected or adressed in training" but it is addressed in training?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

If you are defining universal skills of combat. Then you can create a system that that fills that role. Better than other systems. Then you can say this martial art is better.

Oh, I don't know about that. Some broad training methodologies intended to teach certain generalized ("universal") fighting "skills" can be applied in nearly every martial system, or even culture. There are just some things that are "universal" problems or pitfalls that fighters must somehow be able to conquer. Almost all of these are related to human adrenal dump; "fight or flight" response. Some of it is related to the fact that humans are just really really bad at making logical decisions, even simple binary decisions, when under adrenal dump. A successful "fighting" or (gads) "Combat" martial art must include methods for addressing this.

I've found that there appears to be two "solutions" to achieving these results.

First is the concept of controlling the mindset so that adrenal dump either doesn't happen or is controlled in such a way as to have minimized physiological impact. I believe that this is one of the reasons that the Japanese developed the concepts of zanshin and mushin. That relaxed, semi-meditative-like state of detached, peaceful state awareness empty of anger, fear, or, to a degree, even aggression. Learning how to enter that state takes years usually of dedicated practice and a good instructor but when it works, it works really well. Another method along these lines is a process head-shrinkers call "desensitization." This is a process where the troubling "stimulation" has occurred sooooo many times to you that it no longer bothers you at all. It's the same method used to treat people with phobias and teach Nazi death-camp guards that it's OK. When applied to a violent encounter, constant, repeated exposures to the violence, including (especially) doling out the violence, no longer creates the adrenal dump/fight-or-flight which puts you in a very narrow mental loop and often causes untrained people to freeze. With sufficient desensitization, "it's just another day at the office, breaking stuff off of people, I wonder what's for dinner? <crunch>" Desensitization also takes a great deal of time to affect, multiple, repeated exposures.

The second concept is now commonly used by many militaries of the world, including the U.S. military. Harness the adrenal dump response. This focuses on the "fight" part of "flight-or-fight." During adrenal dump, people sort of go into an automated loop. They do exactly, and often ONLY, what they've trained to do. I call this "robo-droid." I recall seeing video of a man trying to use a pistol for self defense and failing. He pulls the trigger over and over and the gun does nothing. It won't fire. Turns out he had the safety on. His training had never included flicking off the safety as part of his defensive drills so when adrenal dump hit, his robo-droid followed its programing by pointing and pressing the trigger. Robo-droid is pretty much just a set of programs, following a script which it is incapable of deviating from. Much of military combat training is now focused on programming robo-droid on how to react. Many people who enter this state report that there is sort of a run-up to it of very heightened fear or anger and then a kind of "going dead" detached feeling while their body does very violent things, outside of their control. A little like being a tourist riding along inside your body while a robot takes over. From the outside, people viewing it often report that all emotion drains from the persons face or that their eyes go dead and there's a feel of impending violence balanced on a knive's edge. This isn't an entirely new concept, of course. Fighters have been training to use the "combat rage" for as long as humans have been fighting. There's some evidence, for instance, that the semi-legendary Berzerkers operated this way. (On a side note, if you see someone in the run-up to a fight and you can almost literally see their eyes "go dead," GTFO right now! crap's about to hit the fan.)

Any of these general training methodologies for dealing with fight-or-flight can be applied to almost any martial arts training or system from boxing, to grappling, to swordfighting, all the way up through modern firearms.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Well I would say first that your M4 v Steyr comment shows an attitude emblematic throughout this thread, but with that said you completely miss something, especially since there is no better or worse way to fire a rifle accurately. There is sight picture, cheek well, trigger pull and breathing, that it, every combat rifle shares these basic characteristics,

What about "Reflexive Fire?" Still taught. FM 3-22.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Juany118]

Interesting position. Do you have any studies to support this conclusion?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

First a brief explanation as to how it works (fight or flight) Understanding the stress response - Harvard Health, for those who may not know. (Not you)

Then a dang good explanation about how the adrenalin, effects vision (I will give a personal experience below that mirrors is) Fighting Tunnel Vision—Refocusing During an Emergency | Parachutist Online

I will be honest and say it is a combination of current military training, based on studies, and anecdotal experience, from both military and LEO, so take it for what it is worth.

First an example of the military and how, in training they try to simulate it...

Stress-induced weapons training prepares Soldiers for combat | Article | The United States Army

Now I do fire arms training this way on my own and have long before this article was published actually. As far as my my school, when we spar in Kali, it is pretty much all out but only when using the training knives (might be odd but a huge thing for my Sifu/Guro is "if you can't take a hit here you will fail if you take one on the street. I have gone to work and had coworker ask "did you punch a wall?" because my hand was so swollen from a good solid hit between the knuckles from a hard training knife. Now, I understand the below may sound like some self importance, but it is a legitimate experience.

The military training above helps no doubt, as does the sparring. However, the instantaneous effect of adrenaline in fight or flight situation with no such build up? I have felt that more than once.

The one that will always stick in my mind was aiming a pistol at a paranoid schizophrenic, high on crack, (no exaggeration) coming at me with a kitchen knife in one hand and a ball peen hammer in the other. I literally watched the hammer of my sidearm coming back at me (the urban myth of stuff like that seeming to be slow motion). I only stopped pulling the trigger only because a back up officer created a cross fire situation. Luckily the bad guy suddenly decided to throw his weapons at another squad car that pulled into the alley at the exact same moment (mental health patients will suddenly change course to new stimuli) and I didn't have to "take one for the team" because of a situationally unaware officer. The difference between going full contact sparring, vs the above? To me it is like what it must feel like to get jazzed up by caffeine (competition) vs crack (street).

Now the above could well be simply be a symptom of the same dynamic we share with "she must be obeyed", I step into competition, calculate "I will use all my skill but if **** happens, [shrug] still going home" so I have, (until pain if I am the one who screws up) the same exertion I get on a good hard run because I never actually felt in danger.

This compared to "okay, no clue who this guy is, no Sifu/referee to break it up, he wants to stab me with the knife and crush my head with the hammer in the other hand" That was an INSTANT adrenaline dump with no warning because I was responding to a simple "unwanted person" call and walked around the corner to see that. There is just something different, the prepared and regulated violent encounter vs the unprepared and unregulated.

Maybe it's just me but hat is my experience

 

[Juany118]

Oh, I don't know about that. Some broad training methodologies intended to teach certain generalized ("universal") fighting "skills" can be applied in nearly every martial system, or even culture. There are just some things that are "universal" problems or pitfalls that fighters must somehow be able to conquer. Almost all of these are related to human adrenal dump; "fight or flight" response. Some of it is related to the fact that humans are just really really bad at making logical decisions, even simple binary decisions, when under adrenal dump. A successful "fighting" or (gads) "Combat" martial art must include methods for addressing this.

I've found that there appears to be two "solutions" to achieving these results.

First is the concept of controlling the mindset so that adrenal dump either doesn't happen or is controlled in such a way as to have minimized physiological impact. I believe that this is one of the reasons that the Japanese developed the concepts of zanshin and mushin. That relaxed, semi-meditative-like state of detached, peaceful state awareness empty of anger, fear, or, to a degree, even aggression. Learning how to enter that state takes years usually of dedicated practice and a good instructor but when it works, it works really well. Another method along these lines is a process head-shrinkers call "desensitization." This is a process where the troubling "stimulation" has occurred sooooo many times to you that it no longer bothers you at all. It's the same method used to treat people with phobias and teach Nazi death-camp guards that it's OK. When applied to a violent encounter, constant, repeated exposures to the violence, including (especially) doling out the violence, no longer creates the adrenal dump/fight-or-flight which puts you in a very narrow mental loop and often causes untrained people to freeze. With sufficient desensitization, "it's just another day at the office, breaking stuff off of people, I wonder what's for dinner? <crunch>" Desensitization also takes a great deal of time to affect, multiple, repeated exposures.

The second concept is now commonly used by many militaries of the world, including the U.S. military. Harness the adrenal dump response. This focuses on the "fight" part of "flight-or-fight." During adrenal dump, people sort of go into an automated loop. They do exactly, and often ONLY, what they've trained to do. I call this "robo-droid." I recall seeing video of a man trying to use a pistol for self defense and failing. He pulls the trigger over and over and the gun does nothing. It won't fire. Turns out he had the safety on. His training had never included flicking off the safety as part of his defensive drills so when adrenal dump hit, his robo-droid followed its programing by pointing and pressing the trigger. Robo-droid is pretty much just a set of programs, following a script which it is incapable of deviating from. Much of military combat training is now focused on programming robo-droid on how to react. Many people who enter this state report that there is sort of a run-up to it of very heightened fear or anger and then a kind of "going dead" detached feeling while their body does very violent things, outside of their control. A little like being a tourist riding along inside your body while a robot takes over. From the outside, people viewing it often report that all emotion drains from the persons face or that their eyes go dead and there's a feel of impending violence balanced on a knive's edge. This isn't an entirely new concept, of course. Fighters have been training to use the "combat rage" for as long as humans have been fighting. There's some evidence, for instance, that the semi-legendary Berzerkers operated this way. (On a side note, if you see someone in the run-up to a fight and you can almost literally see their eyes "go dead," GTFO right now! crap's about to hit the fan.)

Any of these general training methodologies for dealing with fight-or-flight can be applied to almost any martial arts training or system from boxing, to grappling, to swordfighting, all the way up through modern firearms.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I agree with everything you say here with the exception of "robo-droid" working when you are the only guy there. (I love that term btw, stealing it ) in the Military it works because you are part of a Unit. You can afford to tunnel vision on your targets because of the rest of the unit addressing other targets. On the Street in civilian life that dynamic is rarely there so I see a difference personally. In short what works for a mass military action where casualties are acceptable, but if ourse you wish to minimize, vs how you should train for a violent individual encounter where you becoming a casualty is not acceptable to you? These appear to be different goals require a different focus of sorts. fighting tunnel vision rather than relying on the battle buddy to hit the guy you can't see is the first difference that comes to mind.

 

[Juany118]

What about "Reflexive Fire?" Still taught. FM 3-22.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

A video of reflexive fire...

Your sight picture, cheap well etc, all the same. The only difference is that you are in a split second challenged on what targets to shoot at. It is good training but the mechanics of shooting have not changed. This is just part of advanced marksmanship which challenges your reactions to an immediate threat.

 

[lklawson]

First a brief explanation as to how it works (fight or flight) Understanding the stress response - Harvard Health, for those who may not know.

Then a dang good explanation about how the adrenalin, effects vision (I will give a personal experience below that mirrors is) Fighting Tunnel Vision—Refocusing During an Emergency | Parachutist Online

I will be honest and say it is a combination of current military training, based on studies, and anecdotal experience, from both military and LEO, so take it for what it is worth.

First an example of the military and how, in training they try to simulate it...

Stress-induced weapons training prepares Soldiers for combat | Article | The United States Army

I'm pretty familiar with fight-or-flight adrenal stress studies and training methodologies. None of that actually supports your claim that referee calls and round breaks "lower your brains perception of danger so that adrenalin rush usually doesn't kick in until you are getting your *** handed to you."

If you'd argued that desensitization techniques can lower the likelihood of adrenal dump, I'd be right with you, but I just don't see a causal link. That's not how stimuli works. First the stimuli, then the response. If you'd claimed that a MMA trained fighter might pause or hesitate during a "real fight" if someone yelled "BREAK!!" with a referee tone (or whatever) or that they might pause or hesitate if he heard a bell ring, I'd probably agree. But your claim seems to be running off of some pretty broad assumptions.

Now I do fire arms training this way on my own and have long before this article was published actually. As far as my my school, when we spar in Kali, it is pretty much all out but only when using the training knives (might be odd but a huge thing for my Sifu/Guro is "if you can't take a hit here you will fail if you take one on the street. I have gone to work and had coworker ask "did you punch a wall?" because my hand was so swollen from a good solid hit between the knuckles from a

. Now, I understand the below may sound like some self importance, but it is a legitimate experience.

Tuesday night while teaching Tomahawk I jammed my left thumb so bad that I had an adrenal dump on it and the queezy reaction when I eventually finally felt the pain. Had to lay down (about 5 min after the fight). When I taught grip fighting the next night at judo, I couldn't use my left hand (or even open a frigg'n twist cap). I would have had to Off Hand pistol because no way I could have gotten a solid Isosceles, never mind a Weaver, and a rifle would have been, umm... "challenging."

The military training above helps no doubt, as does the sparring. However, the instantaneous effect of adrenaline in fight or flight situation with no such build up? I have felt that more than once.

Are you a "dead eyes" guy? I've only hit dead eyes a couple of times. I know guys who almost can't seem to not go dead eyes.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk