Wing Chun Vs Arm Wrestling?

ed cruz

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Can this work? Structure vs muscle? I posted a short preview on Kirin Rise YouTube.

 

geezer

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Slick video, Ed. Well made... and funny! But it's just a teaser to get people onto your Facebook channel, WC program, and to raise awareness of your book series. All well and good, but it kinda defeats the purpose of coming onto this forum, which is to host and honest discussion right here. You know this forum isn't intended to be a venue for advertising and promotion, right?

Look, you have some strong opinions about Wing Chun and this is a great place to discuss them. There are people here who have the knowledge and interest to engage and discuss WC with you, but if you are only posting here to divert traffic to your site, I'd say you are in the wrong place. :cool:
 
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ed cruz

ed cruz

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I can only discuss if someone talks back.
 

Callen

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I can only discuss if someone talks back.
Nice to see that you are creating content again Ed. I enjoyed some of the early Windy City stuff you guys put out years ago.

On the topic of your video, structure is defined differently within various Wing Chun circles and lineages. How do you describe structure in the context of Wing Chun, and how are you utilizing it in your arm wrestling example?
 

geezer

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Silly question
I can only discuss if someone talks back.

^^^ When I was a kid I got slapped for that!

OK seriously, I'm also a potter and have been teaching "centering" clay on the wheel to high school students for decades. Using structure, rather than muscle, is as important in efficiently throwing clay on the wheel just as it is in efficiently applying Wing Chun. But I admit I'm at a loss as to see how any of the structure applications I use in either the gung fu of making pottery or the gung fu of Wing Chun (both linear and centerline) would apply to the lateral force applied in arm wrestling! ...Especially if your arm wrestling opponent is elastic and "alive" in his motions --pushing, pulling, twisting and so forth.

In fact, left unexplained, the demo might look to some of a skeptical nature like just another martial arts parlor trick. So, why don't you explain what was going on. :)
 

Martial D

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For those of us not inclined to watch videos, you didn't leave much to say.

Except this I guess.

I do Wing Chun whatchu wanna talk about?
 
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ed cruz

ed cruz

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For those of us not inclined to watch videos, you didn't leave much to say.

Except this I guess.

I do Wing Chun whatchu wanna talk about?

I thought videos were the easiest form of communication
 

APL76

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^^^ When I was a kid I got slapped for that!

OK seriously, I'm also a potter and have been teaching "centering" clay on the wheel to high school students for decades. Using structure, rather than muscle, is as important in efficiently throwing clay on the wheel just as it is in efficiently applying Wing Chun. But I admit I'm at a loss as to see how any of the structure applications I use in either the gung fu of making pottery or the gung fu of Wing Chun (both linear and centerline) would apply to the lateral force applied in arm wrestling! ...Especially if your arm wrestling opponent is elastic and "alive" in his motions --pushing, pulling, twisting and so forth.

In fact, left unexplained, the demo might look to some of a skeptical nature like just another martial arts parlor trick. So, why don't you explain what was going on. :)


When I was a teenager, maybe...色.14, 15 or 16, I was already a lit bigger and stronger than my dad who was a cranky little engineer from Glasgow. but no matter how much stronger, fitter and heavier I was than him, I could never beat him in an arm wrestle (or chess for that matter, but that's another story).That is, until he it explained to me: When people arm wrestle they invariably put their elbow on the table, take the other guy's hand, and push SIDEWAYS (from right to left). He however, would PULL towards himself, making my weaker structure, though, stronger muscles, try to push force through a reasonably weak structure in a side to side direction that the muscles were not really cut out for. He however would PULL me towards his body in a bicep-curl like motion in which he had all of his weight and natural way of the muscles working. So, while all he had to deal with was my arm, chest and shoulder muscles to work against, I had his arm, shoulder, chest and entire body weight to move (All working in a much more natural action than my side to side action).

I don't know if this is what the guy in the video is getting at, and doing, but I suspect that it might be.
 
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ed cruz

ed cruz

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When I was a teenager, maybe...色.14, 15 or 16, I was already a lit bigger and stronger than my dad who was a cranky little engineer from Glasgow. but no matter how much stronger, fitter and heavier I was than him, I could never beat him in an arm wrestle (or chess for that matter, but that's another story).That is, until he it explained to me: When people arm wrestle they invariably put their elbow on the table, take the other guy's hand, and push SIDEWAYS (from right to left). He however, would PULL towards himself, making my weaker structure, though, stronger muscles, try to push force through a reasonably weak structure in a side to side direction that the muscles were not really cut out for. He however would PULL me towards his body in a bicep-curl like motion in which he had all of his weight and natural way of the muscles working. So, while all he had to deal with was my arm, chest and shoulder muscles to work against, I had his arm, shoulder, chest and entire body weight to move (All working in a much more natural action than my side to side action).

I don't know if this is what the guy in the video is getting at, and doing, but I suspect that it might be.
 
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ed cruz

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while that would be a leverage position which is good that is not what I was doing.
 

geezer

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while that would be a leverage position which is good that is not what I was doing.

OK then, what were you doing, and how would you use it in a free flowing exchange such as chi-sau or even sparring? I'm not much for guessing games!
 

geezer

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I want to apologize if I appear impatient, but I do get a little tired when posts seem presumptuous or come across as though the author has some elite insight. While that may or may not be the case, but it really boils down to attitude. I may not be a member of the elite group myself, but over my 40 years in Wing Chun (OK make that 30, since I did take a significant "hiatus" after getting married and having kids) I've worked with some really high level people. Some were arrogant, and others were really down-to-earth types.

What I took away from these encounters is that there are a lot of legitimate differences in approach, even among very skilled exponents of WC/WT/VT. And, looking at those differences, the wisest perspective is not a "right or wrong" perspective, but rather a risk vs. benefit analysis as to what works best, and ultimately that will vary somewhat depending on the individual practitioner.

I could give examples using different approaches to stance weighting, the dynamics of turning, guard position, and strategies for engagement, etc. and relate them to some of Ed's previously posted videos. But I really don't think he'd be interested. In spite of Ed's disarming modesty and delightful sense of humor, I get the feeling that he still falls into the "true believer" category that we used to see so much on this forum some years back. By that I mean that he is firmly convinced that his (or his sifu's) interpretation is absolutely "right" and other interpretations are not. So, while he may generously want to share his wisdom, he has no interest in debating it's absolute "correctness".

I get that, and it's OK. I also did bai-si and spent about a dozen years as a personal disciple of a direct student of Yip Man, and during most of that time I too believed that my sifu's interpretation has the only correct one. But that is not what I believe today.

Ed, please correct me if I am wrong. I realize that what I have stated is an assumption, and I do not want to be unfair.
 
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Callen

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while that would be a leverage position which is good that is not what I was doing.
Can you elaborate on what you were doing?

It's ok to explain and share your perspective Ed, most of us are not judgmental or looking to argue about how you and Fong Sifu define structure. Actually, our dialogue with each other as a community helps to bridge the gaps and differences between us as practitioners. Unity and communication is incredibly important to the relevance of Wing Chun in general, now more than ever. We all have to step-up and do our part, put egos aside and contribute.
 
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ed cruz

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first concept you have to understand is that at no point am I pushing. If I push I lose. That in itself is difficult to grasp.
 

geezer

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first concept you have to understand is that at no point am I pushing. If I push I lose. That in itself is difficult to grasp.

So you can't or won't explain what you were doing then?

OK. I can get that. A lot of things, especially in WC need to be felt to be understood. But I'd still like to know how using structure in your arm to resist a lateral force like this would be applied in WC. I noticed that in one of your videos you made a similar point about your lineage's guard or "ready position" (man-wu-sau). You used structure to effectively resist attempts to slap or pak your man-sau or "lead hand" aside.

In the Wing Chun I trained, we learned to maintain a flexible or "springy" quality. So, if someone smacked our man-sau sideways like that we'd allow their force bend our arm, releasing the pressure, and spring back with a fak-sau or punch according to the maxim "never clash force against force". So why resist, even if you can? Besides, sideward force at least in that context, is not a threat as it is not aimed at your center.
 

wayfaring

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No I dont think it can work. Videos need actual content not two guys sitting around yucking it up and editing in movie clips while they laugh about some imaginary structure concept in their mind while play arm wrestling. But YMMV.


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