Shifting the Stance vs Turning the Waist

[yak sao]

You also can't fight someone's flank when you step directly down the middle between their legs...

You mean like in the wooden dummy form when we step in from the flank and uproot their stance?

 

[LFJ]

When we step in to intercept, we do not weight the front leg so that we can avoid a sweep and/or change direction if needed. It also makes the lead leg readily available for kicking as we come in.

You come hopping in on your rear leg, do you?

You mean like in the wooden dummy form when we step in from the flank and uproot their stance?

If you think "straight up the middle between their legs" is the same as "from the flank" you are very confused.

 

[yak sao]

You come hopping in on your rear leg, do you?

Nah, you're thinking of William Cheung's group

 

[yak sao]

If you think "straight up the middle between their legs" is the same as "from the flank" you are very confused.

That didn't sound quite right did it?
What I was trying to convey is we drive towards their middle, not necessarily up the middle.

 

[Danny T]

You and I train very different systems. So it's not just "in my opinion". It's "in my system". "We" obviously don't share the same focus.

When you focus on feeling, you turn the drills into offense and defense thinking. As if you're going to stick to punches being thrown at you and use feeling to determine your next move. Anyone who fights a good boxer will quickly realize how absurd an idea that is. It works in your chi-sau only because you have made mutual pre- and prolonged arm contact.

For me, chi-sau is not about feeling and offense and defense. We aren't working against each other, but with each other. We work drills to help each other correct errors in position, alignment, structure, balance, etc.. It's cooperation, role playing, to develop and condition our movements. The faster we go the more we see freezing, over- or under reaction, loss of balance, bad footwork, etc.. So we work together to help each other check and correct these common errors that come out in free fighting under stress.

It's nothing to do with sticking and feeling. Sensitivity is merely a byproduct of the drilling platform because we are in contact, but there are drills we do specifically to train not to stick and try to feel; errors that will get you hit if you try it against speeding punches being thrown at you.



Firstly, to exchange force in such a way that we both develop elbow and lower body connection for punching power. We do not fight with two arms in parallel extension, but do so in chi-sau drilling so that each partner learns to avoid upper body rotation which opens up gaps and opportunities to be flanked in free fighting, and learns coordination and alignment for striking.

The pun-sau structure is like training wheels for alignment and such. Ultimately, your mindset must not be offense and defense like fighting or competing at this stage, which is what happens when you focus on feeling and what to do when you sense this or that. We fight with a lead and rear hand and don't try to stick to and feel arms as they are flying at us at lightning speed. That is only a theory worked out in chi-sau with the wrong focus (from the pov of my lineage), and will not work against serious punchers.

Yea, and it is all based upon feel.
Can you perform all of the these by doing it in the air?
Can you gain all of what you are learning and practicing by yourself against nothing?
Blindfold yourself get into your stance and what ever posture you want with your training partner, step away from each other and perform the actions you are doing in chi sao without touching each other. Chi sao is about feeling.

 

[LFJ]

That didn't sound quite right did it?
What I was trying to convey is we drive towards their middle, not necessarily up the middle.

Alright, but you do this "stance inserting footwork" straight up the middle too, which is what I think is not such a great idea.

 

[LFJ]

Yea, and it is all based upon feel.
Can you perform all of the these by doing it in the air?
Can you gain all of what you are learning and practicing by yourself against nothing?
Blindfold yourself get into your stance and what ever posture you want with your training partner, step away from each other and perform the actions you are doing in chi sao without touching each other. Chi sao is about feeling.

You have confused contact with feeling.

Sure, we make use of mutual contact to help each other develop power connection, alignment, balance, elbow behavior, etc., but it has nothing to do with feeling each other's energies and manipulating limbs and so forth based on that. This is not our strategy.

 

[yak sao]

Alright, but you do this "stance inserting footwork" straight up the middle too, which is what I think is not such a great idea.

Perhaps. But we don't plow up the middle all that much. We try to dominate the opponent's center. Sometimes that is best achieved by blasting straight up the middle, but more often I would say, it's best achieved by attacking their flank.

Either way, the goal is not to stand there and trade punches, but to occupy their space and unbalance them. The inserted front leg helps us achieve this.

 

[yak sao]

BTW LFJ, I forget which lineage of WC you practice.

 

[LFJ]

WSLVT.

But saying that now is like saying YM lineage. It doesn't really mean anything anymore, as there are many different ideas being taught within the WSL lineage, some that are contradicting and I don't agree with them all. I've experienced most and do what works for me, but in recent years I've been more influenced by the PBVT crowd. I have friends in the lineage and agree with their ideas most, but have yet to meet the man himself. Planning to soon though.

 

[geezer]

Alright, but you do this "stance inserting footwork" straight up the middle too, which is what I think is not such a great idea.

LFJ you are absolutely right on that (bolded above). It's too bad that people think that this is what WC is all about. On the other hand the yap bo or "inserting step" is quite effective for uprooting when applied from the flank as Yak stated.

Now about that video you posted. I've never met Alex, the guy demonstrating in it, but he is presenting pretty orthodox WT training ...at least as trained in lower level drills. In application, it's actually a lot more fluid and practical when done right.

On the other hand, I have messed up legs and don't have the greatest stability. Also, my earliest MA experience was wrestling and I'm aware of what a good wrestler can do. These factors have led me to modify my personal stance since my WT days to find what works best for me.

 

[Danny T]

Chi Sao is the drill for learning sticking and feeling. Directing and countering pressure but it is not fighting.

You and I train very different systems. So it's not just "in my opinion". It's "in my system". "We" obviously don't share the same focus.

When you focus on feeling, you turn the drills into offense and defense thinking. As if you're going to stick to punches being thrown at you and use feeling to determine your next move. Anyone who fights a good boxer will quickly realize how absurd an idea that is. It works in your chi-sau only because you have made mutual pre- and prolonged arm contact.

For me, chi-sau is not about feeling and offense and defense. We aren't working against each other, but with each other. We work drills to help each other correct errors in position, alignment, structure, balance, etc.. It's cooperation, role playing, to develop and condition our movements. The faster we go the more we see freezing, over- or under reaction, loss of balance, bad footwork, etc.. So we work together to help each other check and correct these common errors that come out in free fighting under stress.

It's nothing to do with sticking and feeling. Sensitivity is merely a byproduct of the drilling platform because we are in contact, but there are drills we do specifically to train not to stick and try to feel; errors that will get you hit if you try it against speeding punches being thrown at you.


Firstly, to exchange force in such a way that we both develop elbow and lower body connection for punching power. We do not fight with two arms in parallel extension, but do so in chi-sau drilling so that each partner learns to avoid upper body rotation which opens up gaps and opportunities to be flanked in free fighting, and learns coordination and alignment for striking.

The pun-sau structure is like training wheels for alignment and such. Ultimately, your mindset must not be offense and defense like fighting or competing at this stage, which is what happens when you focus on feeling and what to do when you sense this or that. We fight with a lead and rear hand and don't try to stick to and feel arms as they are flying at us at lightning speed. That is only a theory worked out in chi-sau with the wrong focus (from the pov of my lineage), and will not work against serious punchers.

And how do partners do this? How does one know they are in contact? How does one know when a punch can be deployed when in contact with another? How does one know how much force to apply to an opponent at any moment in time? Is it an intuitive thing or is it based upon physical sensation?

 

[geezer]

...in recent years I've been more influenced by the PBVT crowd. I have friends in the lineage and agree with their ideas most, but have yet to meet the man himself. Planning to soon though.

If you do meet him and like his stuff, just promise you won't become one of his fanatical followers who diss everybody else! Towards PB ...total respect. Towards some of his groupies who trolled on that "other" forum ...not so much.

 

[LFJ]

Chi Sao is the drill for learning sticking and feeling.

In your lineage, and maybe most, but not mine. Alright? We train different systems.

And how do partners do this? How does one know they are in contact? How does one know when a punch can be deployed when in contact with another? How does one know how much force to apply to an opponent at any moment in time?

Of course we are normal feeling human beings. I said sensitivity is a byproduct of being in mutual contact. We don't base our fighting strategy on feeling, as much as you might want me to say we do. We keep our mindset in free fighting outside of chi-sau where there is no such contact. Sensitivity is not used to fight against people throwing punches at us. We don't work out feeling-based tactics in chi-sau.

Is it an intuitive thing or is it based upon physical sensation?

Interesting that you use that word, and perhaps surprisingly to you, what we do is kind of an intuitive thing... Because our system teaches us proper alignment, positioning, and angles, and it is self-correcting in that once any deviation in these occurs it will be automatically corrected without thought. We train to be non-thinking fighters (outside of chi-sau with no pre- or prolonged arm contact).

That's why our system is based more on things like angling and tactical striking methods that contain simultaneous attack and defense functions with a single limb, so two arms working in rotation function as four. So we don't have to try to stick and feel with one arm and strike with the other, or get caught worrying about which side to defend or attack from and which arms to use (thinking, hesitating).

 

[LFJ]

If you do meet him and like his stuff, just promise you won't become one of his fanatical followers who diss everybody else! Towards PB ...total respect. Towards some of his groupies who trolled on that "other" forum ...not so much.

Oh, I got into it with them too from time to time. I'm definitely not dogmatic. I always say although everyone calls what they do "Wing Chun", however, they spell it, it's more beneficial to look at them as separate systems of kung fu (especially since they sometimes develop very different approaches to fighting). That way everyone gets to be right, according to their own system. Now, whether certain ideas are practical or not can be a separate issue...

 

[Eric_H]

I would like to know what flaws you see with using the waist as presented by the OP. I'm not in argument, just curious just in case that this flaw exists in Jow Ga.

From what I see in the op's presentation his body structure doesn't support the waist movement leading to a one-sided body presentation with his COG very open for challenge from anyone able to maintain a Deui Ying structure. He attempts to cover this flaw by taking the elbow with his strong side but that's just masking the incompatibility in his stance and waist movement with a technique.

I don't know anything about Jow Ga, are you guys more run and gun like kickboxing or karate? I could see this type of body tactic working better in that framework.

if there is a flaw then all the internal arts must be flawed to because they all turn the waist like that. look at push hand practice as one example..they yield with the waist yet maintain their rooting without moving their feet. this is very common and very basic training.

I've been training Tai Chi and other Wudang arts for more than a few years now and while yes they use the waist, they don't use it in the frame you are presenting. Just because something works under one art's engine/framework doesn't mean it fits under another... Or else you're stating the logical equivalent of "a fuel pump that works in a Smart Car would work just as well in a Nissan Titan because they both use fuel pumps."

 

[Danny T]

We keep our mindset in free fighting outside of chi-sau where there is no such contact. Sensitivity is not used to fight against people throwing punches at us.

Absolutely. But then that would not be chi sao would it?

Interesting that you use that word, and perhaps surprisingly to you, what we do is kind of an intuitive thing... Because our system teaches us proper alignment, positioning, and angles, and it is self-correcting in that once any deviation in these occurs it will be automatically corrected without thought.

Ok, but that is also a byproduct of the training it isn't that one does so without practicing in contact with another.

We train to be non-thinking fighters (outside of chi-sau with no pre- or prolonged arm contact).

Ok and most striking type fighting has only short instances of contact. Again not chi sao and can be taught without chi sao training.

That's why our system is based more on things like angling and tactical striking methods that contain simultaneous attack and defense functions with a single limb, so two arms working in rotation function as four. So we don't have to try to stick and feel with one arm and strike with the other, or get caught worrying about which side to defend or attack from and which arms to use (thinking, hesitating).

Ok.
I agreed with everything here and when one is in a position where your one arm is trapping or controlling the opponent's two arms you telling me you don't feel that? And when the opponent moves an arm or changes angles you don't feel that either?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't know anything about Jow Ga, are you guys more run and gun like kickboxing or karate? I could see this type of body tactic working better in that framework.

We are "stand your ground" type fighters who fight at angles. We are known for our strong root which is needed to stabalize our big punches which are similar to Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut which are two of the 3 foundations that make up our style. The 3rd foundation is northern Shaolin which gives us mobility when needed. We always joke that our style is like an older version of MMA because Jow Ga is made up of 2 heavy hitting and rooted fighting systems and 1 fast and mobile fighting system.
This is what we look like when we are standing our ground

This is what we look like when we use more mobile attacks. Take a look at the 0:44 mark and you'll see a similar twisting stance similar to WC stance being discussed.

 

[geezer]

Boy, the Hung Ga really stands out in the first, "Small Tiger" form. Great forms. Very impressive. Cool looking and obviously physically demanding. How does it hold up in free application? Do you guys spar against other systems ...Karate, boxers, WC, etc.?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The "double legs" attack is very difficult to counter and you should try to avoid it as much as possible.

In order to avoid it, you should try to stand in such a way that your opponent can not get both of your legs at the same time. Here is a good example.