Will The "Real" Kenpo Please Step Forward

[MJS]

Many people trained with Mr. Parker. Some may have trained directly with him longer than others have. You have many people who teach their version of Kenpo. You also have many people running around speaking ill of those that do their Kenpo different than the next guy. So as an example. You could have a student of one teacher running around saying that unless you trained with instructor A, you don't have Kenpo the way it should be taught. People will post video clips of someone doing a kata or technique and pretty much bash the hell out of it, because its 'different' from what they do.

So, in your opinion, is there a 'real' Kenpo? Is there one method or teacher that is teaching the 'real deal' while everyone else is handing out a watered down version?

Usually I like to say that there are many different branches of the Kenpo tree, so just because something may look a little different, doesnt necessarily mean that its wrong.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

 

[terryl965]

Well I hold no rank in Kenpo but have trained with a few people and from my understanding Mr. Parker never limited to one set of standerds. I mean if you needed to change something a little to make it work for you then make the change, of course I could be completely wrong here.

I wonder why so many feel the need to bash any Art let alone the one they study, would Mr. Parker be happy with this and was this his vision no, not at all. I would also reckon that every single person studing the Art wish the spirit of the true meaning behind his vision would grow and grasp each other in a spirit like no others.

:asian:

 

[Mark L]

I don't think there is a one, true, real kempo. Martial arts are dynamic, change happens. Hopefully for the good, but not always.

My history isn't with Parker kempo, so I won't go there. My core curriculum is SKK with some other kempo influences. I am protective when I hear about SKK variants that mess with what I've learned. It's my kempo, and I hold it in high regard. Doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, but it's personal to me.

Lets say I practice "vanilla kempo", and mess around a lot with the original stuff I learned. Is it still "vanilla kempo", probably not. Is it still kempo, probably. I think a divergence occurs when the core principles as manifested in the techniques are changed to a degree where it isn't significantly representative of "vanilla kempo". That isn't necessarily bad, but it isn't "vanilla kempo" anymore. So don't call it that.

As far as bashing goes, it's a competitive world out there and this rampant PC nonsense is encouraging mediocrity. If I see something being done that is, in my opinion, detrimental to the art I practice I will express my opinion. If you don't like what I've done to "vanilla kempo", who am I to gag you? Criticism is good, it makes us better if we use it constructively instead of whining about it.

 

[spacecorp]

I agree that discussion and criticism is a nedded aspect of development. However, tradition for traditions sake works well in tea ceremony but not warfare. After all, martial arts needs to be dynamic and growing. Each practicioner should keep what works and discard from his/her arsenal what does not work. Learn from all but keep only what has value.

I think the people in this forum are intelligent enough to understand the principles they are learning and hopefully are able to put them to use constructively.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

My Kempo is from Okinawan version. From my understanding they borrowed from different arts, different countries. Not everyone did the exact same type of Kempo. My Kempo doesn't look very much like EPAK at all. Doesn't mean what he teaches is not Kenpo.

 

[kidswarrior]

So, in your opinion, is there a 'real' Kenpo?

Yeah, the one each of us practices. :asian:

 

[Hand Sword]

The real Kem/npo changes with time. The real one is a popularity contest, where the teachers/organization etc.. are thought well of. Of course, the politics changes constantly with long friends becoming enemys, once enemys becoming friends....it's ridiculous!

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I think all of the responses thus far have been remarkably PC, courteous, and inclusive. The distinction remains, however, that Kenpo under Mr. Parker has many faces, some of which are better than others.

There are lots of folks teaching Parkers American Kenpo. Some "get it", more do not. Parker techniques are just sequences of moves; anybody can do them, and claim to be doing his kenpo. But, his kenpo wasn't the choreography; it was how one moved while they were performing the choreography. Several distinctions seperate "poor" from "average" from "above average " from "really good" from "phenom". Among traits that seperate mediocre Parker kenpo presentations from stellar ones are components of sophistication. I'll list some; the list is not exhaustive. In it, I will list guys I'm not affiliated with, but whom I believe to represent certain ideals of Parker kenpo well.

Multiplicity -- More than one thing going on. While the upper body is following the dance steps of "block, chop, palm heel, uppercut", the lower body is crashing into the bad guys knees, thighs, ankles, interupting his balance, alignment, coordination, preventing him from ever geting his ducks in enough of a row to brace himself to retreat, cover up against the beating, or counter; he's not done until we're done with him, because his options are controlled and delineated by our actions.

Consider foot maneuvers. A front crossover in kenpo is walking the rear foot across the front of the front foot to a twist stance, then stepping forward with the lead leg into a new stance, a bit closer to the bad guys center space. Lower end kenpo schools only use this to close or manage distance. Hallmark of "better", is using this as an attack. The rear foot coming accross the front fo the lead foot also serves as a stomping instep kick to a knee joint, rakes down the shin, and sets to the floor THROUGH the ankle instead of next to it, creating an angle of disturbance that sets the guy stumbling. The movement of the lead leg stepping out of this twist becomes a rising knee kick to the pelvis, followed by a low side snap or thrust to the bad guys knee, witth yet another raking down the shin and firm plant on the foot or through the ankle, disturbing the guys base so he's off balance and unable to coordinate a defense. Mr. Pick is good with this; strikes you with his foot maneuvers and stance changes, using them to attack your base, so that whatever he does with his upper body is just gravy. Getting attacked by a stance change so that you're hurting, with a headache, and in need of crutches is an interesting dimension to kenpo done "better".

This is done WHILE the upper body and arms are doing their gig whacking on the guy, positioning him for further whacks, controlling him through bumps, bunts, and check and spins, and so on. Both of their manuals will read "execute a front crossover foot maneuver while doing the chop/palm/punch combo about the head and neck", but the execution will be more complex and sophisticated with the attacking crossover.

Stike Manipulation / Impact Manipulation -- Something Mr. parker was brilliant at was using the reactions of one strike to set the bad guy up for the next one. Dragging a ripping with a raking hammerfist as you pass through the target has a very different effect on subsequent vulnerabilities and target availabilites via bad guy position than does simply bopping the guy in the face with a hammerfist. Very few PArker lineages use this well. Most bippity-bop the guy, and pride themselves on being able to bip-bop faster than the other kenpo katz, failing to realize that quality kenpo requires learning to rip through targets with enough authority to effect spins of the spine, whipping about actions of the extremities we hit, and so on. Instead, it's like...the guys further from the tree just have a pattern of 5 blows they're gonna rip off as fast as they can, with complete disregard as to how each blow twists, jukes, spins, or yanks the guy around in prep for the follow up. The bip-bop apprach manages to work, because the kenpoist throws more blows than the bad guy can respond to, and gets hit a bunch, eventually going down. But the absolute destructive capacity inherent in applications of strike manipulation and control manipulation get lost...the guy whould be overwhelmed by rapid fire combinations and sporting a fat lip and bloody nose, rather than wrecked by a series of purposeful manipulations and blows that effecively dismantle his skeletal structure and insult his nervous and vascular system to a point of some pretty significant injuries. It's the difference between an eye hook that scrathes the eye, an eye hook that pops out the eye, and an eye hook that embeds in the eye socket, latches onto bony structures witthin the skull, and rips them free from ligamentous sutures like tearing a green tree branch off of a trunk, leaving a large gaping hole of missing bony components of the skull. They all get described the same in the write ups, but one is inherently more destructive than the other, requiring a better understanding of power principles, bracing angles, body dynamics, and functional anatomy. Doc Chapel does a dynamite job with this...making sure the strikes are sticky on the bad guy, so he gets whipped around and positioned for the next blow while trying to discover where he left his feet.

Critical Timing factor -- I owe Mr. Hale for this one. If the tech calls for a kick to the nads, followed by a palm heel after to his bent over head or face, lower end kenpo will kick the guy, wait for him to bend over in response to the pain, then throw a low palm heel to a dude who's stooped and holding his gear in pain. Higher end kenpo...bust him in the nads, and as his face is rocketing forward to achieve the bentover position, we throw that palm heel so that he collides his reactive force into our offensive force, creating a subtle but effective force multiplication effect. But dont stop there...insert slipping the palm heel off the target so you also crack him with the elbow o fthe same arm, all while attacking his stance with your stance, so that the multiplied effect of three hits (palm, elbow, knee to his knee) blows him back like he's been hit center chest by a shotgum blast. Both get written "Kick to the groin, followed by a palm heel to the face or head". But they are not the same, in practice, application, or effect.

Inserts, Passing Through, Not To -- Kenpo has a lot of circles that envelope the bad guys body space, and allow us to navigate our own. We can move our hand from a contact at point A, to then next contact at point B, hitting only at each demarcated point. Inserts would have us slicing, chopping, bumping, spinning, raking, destabilizing with bunts to nerve bundles, etc. If Point A is one stoplight, and B is the next stoplight down the road a quarter mile, I can hit only the cars in the A intersection, then drive like a bat out of hell to hit a car in intersection B. Or, I can make sure that -- on my way from A to B -- I side swipe a lot of other cars as I speed down the strip from one intersection to the other. Larry is great at this; whack you five times instead of 2, and it's all inserts "on the way passing thorugh/past" certain points.

Paired Rhythm -- One of my faves. Kenpo too far from the tree will just randomly whip out a buncha fast strikes. Strikes, as manipulation tools, take time to sink in. The guy has to have time to bend after getting a palm to the liver or spleen, before you can whack him with a downward chop to the back of the neck. Too many newbies trying too hard to race through the combinations, that they are swiping chops to the mastoid when it hasn't even had time to present itself in response ot the other blows.

Mr. Parrker could show Reversing Mace, and only hit you the written number of times, all while leaving you standing in pretty much the same spot you started in. Or...he could hit you...using the exact same movement patterns...about 15 times (instead of three), and using strike manipulation, offensive stancework, paired rhythm, and so on, blast you across the room and hammer you down into a pile, stacked on top of yourself in a mashed up little pile, 15 feet away from where you started. But it was still "Reversing mace".

So, kenpo under Mr. Parker has varying degrees of complexity and efficiency in applying the same material. He taught to the strengths and capacities of the students. To put it unkindly, perhaps, if you were of average intelligence and couldn'y follow the higher/faster/more complex trains of tought he was vibing, he taught you a simpler version of a technique, sans all the cool stuff. If you were bright, on the ball, paying attention and working hard, he'd show you the versions with all of the sophisticated bells and whistles. All still kenpo, but not created equally. Both students go back to their studios in their respective cities and say, "But this is how Mr. Parker taught me, so I know it's the right way". Unh-hunh.

Not all kenpo is created equal. Not everyone is going to be able to incorporate the more complex stuff he enjoyed exploring with those who could keep up. But the ones who didn't have access to that level of instruction will always be invested in saying "it ain't so", because their ego's don't want to admit that they may be investing some bunch of time, money, energy and effort into an inferior interpretation.

The good news is, the good material and good profs are out there, teaching the higher end material. Guys smart enough to look at the simple stuff they signed up at and say, "WAit...I bet there's more" will seek out professors capable of showing them the "more", and bringing sophisticated kenpo to life for them.

Takes effort, commitment, and hard work. More importantly, it takes a willingness to admit that what one has been learing may not be the schnizzle, and take the corrective steps necessary to hook up with a prof who CAN bring them the better interpretations.

Its all real kenpo; some is just innately better than others. Not because of egos, but because of where Mr. Parker sowed what seeds with whom. It's a spectrum, with many points along the number line.

Regards,

Dave Crouch, DC

 

[ackks10]

"know what you know, know why it's so" i'll leave it with that:boing2:

 

[JTKenpo]

There are definately aspects to Kenpo which makes it Kenpo no matter what the lineage. You can find these aspects in all Kenpo / Kempo systems. hmmmmm someone recently said "we are more alike then we are different" or maybe they did a seminar or something to that effect. Anyway....aspects such as multiple hammer strikes, very kenpo; one side dominant techniques using sequential flow; inward blocks to outward chops, very very kenpo. Find a master key movement in your style of Kenpo and chances are it is in everyone elses.

 

[LawDog]

When the main tacticle principles of Kenpo are applied within any Kenpo/Kempo system then it is real. If they are not, then it isn't.

 

[HKphooey]

If you are still standing, then you may have found "real" kenpo. And if you are on your back, you may have been studying "fake" kenpo.

 

[jks9199]

This is really a question that applies to many arts. In my own style, it was taught differently at different points in its history here in the US. Early on, it was taught as a direct, hard, demanding, and brutal fighting style, with little "art." Later, the empasis moved in various directions, as different aspects were introduced. Today, there is a new emphasis on developing healthy and non-injuring training. But somewhere along the way, there was always something about it that said "BANDO." There were certain principles and approaches that carried throughout...

I think the same can be said to be true about Ed Parker's teachings. Doc Chap'el (forgive me if I've mispelled -- or misunderstood) has said that Mr. Parker taught certain things to some students, other things in the commercial program, and still other things to different students at other times. I'm sure there were many reasons for this, such as Mr. Parker's mood and interests of the moment while teaching (we all do this, if we're honest; our teaching naturally reflects our own interests of the time we're teaching to some degree), a particular student's abilities or interests, or even his own evolving understanding of what he was teaching. But... throughout it all, there must have been -- and must still be -- something that says "Ed Parker's Kenpo".

Because if that set of core elements isn't there -- you don't have that style, be it Ed Parker's Kenpo, Bando, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Shaolin kung fu, or whatever. If you're making chocolate chip cookies, you can add nuts or shredded coconut or M&Ms and still have chocolate chip cookies... but you can't substitute oatmeal and raisins and leave out the chocolate chips and still have chocolate chip cookies.

 

[HKphooey]

Mr. Miyagi said it best...

Walk on road.

Walk right side, safe. Walk left side, safe.

Walk middle, sooner or later,
you get squished just like grape.

Here, karate same thing.

Either you karate do, yes, or karate do, no.

You karate do, "guess so," just like grape.

Whatever kenpo you choose, go all out, no middle of the road!

 

[Twin Fist]

with just a few exceptions, it all goes back to Mitose. Everything after him is just someone's idea of what kenpo should be.

YES, there is an answer to the question "which Kenpo is best or the most true"

the problem is, the answer will be different for every single person asking the question.

For some people it is EPAK, for some (not enough in my opinion, his stuff should be MUCH more popular) it is Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo, for some (too many in my opinion) they have gone with Villari's stuff, and for many, it is Kaju, or Tracy's


The point is, there is very little "bad" in the Kenpo world, but there is a lot of "different"

find the flavor you like best

 

[Errant108]

Shorinji Kempo?

Byakuren Kempo?

Tetsurin Kempo?

Nihon Kempo?

 

[thetruth]

There is no real Kenpo/Kempo.

As for EPAK well I think you are beating a dead horse trying to find out who has the 'real' Kenpo. Any instructor who was graded relatively highly in the system at the time of his death could very well say they have the real stuff and it is a case of one persons opinion against another's and it is impossible to say who has what(you really just have to believe what you are told). As long as they are affiliated with one of the major organisations of which there are many then you can be relatively safe you are learning something pretty close to what Ed Parker taught.

The term Kempo is used by many organisations now days that aren't affiliated with anyone in particular and have no links to Okinawa or Japan. Some of these organisations are very big and make untrue claims. It is up to the discerning martial artist to find out some background information on what you wish to learn.

If you attend a martial arts school and they teach great stuff but are more of a hybrid style with no affiliation yet they use the name Kempo or Kenpo, does this make them any less 'real'?

If you just wanted to know who has the real Parker Kenpo well you won't get a definitive answer here.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[girlbug2]

Is there one "real" cheeseburger, or are the cheeseburgers at McDonald's just as real as the cheeseburgers at Islands, In N Out, Carl's Junior, the Four Seasons, etc...?

Just different takes on the same basic concept. Although one is allowed to pick favorites, of course.

(And of course, In N Out is the "Best".)

 

[kidswarrior]

Is there one "real" cheeseburger, or are the cheeseburgers at McDonald's just as real as the cheeseburgers at Islands, In N Out, Carl's Junior, the Four Seasons, etc...?

Just different takes on the same basic concept. Although one is allowed to pick favorites, of course.

(And of course, In N Out is the "Best".)

Oh, man, this analogy is classic. :asian:

Of course, I'm gonna steal it, patent it, sell it for millions, then turn around and claim my brand of cheeseburger (kempo) is actually the best. But that's all food for another day.

 

[John Bishop]

Is there one "real" cheeseburger, or are the cheeseburgers at McDonald's just as real as the cheeseburgers at Islands, In N Out, Carl's Junior, the Four Seasons, etc...?

Just different takes on the same basic concept. Although one is allowed to pick favorites, of course.

(And of course, In N Out is the "Best".)

Yes, but you have to admit that some cheeseburgers are better then others:wink1: