Motion or Commercial Kenpo

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amk

Guest
First off I am not putting anyone down, nor saying that any one is better than any one else. I have been fortunate to have trained with many different instructors one on one, and in seminars as well.

So let me ask this:

What is American Kenpo?

According to many, it is the Study of Motion. You learn techniques and the motion that is used in the techniques from 3 points of view, being 1st doing the technique (i.e. Delayed Sword), 2nd doing the attack (i.e. Front right hand lapel grab), and 3rd watching 2 other people practice the technique in 1st and 2nd person situations.

Now the time that I spent with Mr. Huk Planas, he told me and others that American Kenpo is: "The Study of Motion."

Mr. Planas talked about the old days and how they had 3-8 variations on every
technique, and when Mr. Parker wanted to make manuals, they then
condensed the information to make it more acceptable for a manual, which
was the way Mr. Parker thought he could spread the art further. He also added that
they all had writers cramp from just doing one variation. New techniques were created
to complete categories of motion.

This seems obvious to be a new system of learning Kenpo based on motion, which would be a "Motion Kenpo" or "Commercial Kenpo" system to me, whatever you want to call it. A system that was developed not inferior to anything else, as the quality of student does directly relate to the level that their instructor delivers to, and demands of their students.

Now according to Mr. Sean Kelley, Mr. Parker vary rarely taught after this new system was developed. The reason I can make this statement is that according to Mr. Kelley, Mr. Parker was on the Road with Elvis most of the time in the Early 70's, and that would mean that under the new guidelines that most of what was taught was based on Motion, not by Mr. Parker, but by his students. Mr. Parker's students were heavily involved in creating the new system, as Mr. Planas helped with the category completion, and writing of the technique manuals.

What does all of this mean?

Well basically it means that prior to this time period of the Early 70's when this was created, would have been different in the teachings. So if people like Dr. Chap矇l, Mr. Michael Pick, Sigung Steven LaBounty, etc. were studying Kenpo before this time frame it wouldn't have been "Motion Kenpo".

The main difference between the two can be summarized by the following viewpoints as well:
According to Mr. Planas: "Karate is supposed to be a secret, and if you do get in a situation that you have to use it, that surprise will be 10% of it, and the other 90% luck." "Their is no write or wrong way to do a technique, as long as you obey the rules of motion."

According to Dr. Chap矇l, American Kenpo Sub Level Four is learned and practiced in a way that forces you to do things that increase the likely hood of victory. Rearrangement and other aspects of "Motion Kenpo" are removed to stack the odds in your favor, like Positive and Negative Body Posture, Destructive Sequencing, and other aspects that can't be rearranged with out removing those advantages given to us through sciences of body mechanics. In my time with Dr. Chap矇l, he has taught me to train under stressful realistic situations, and deal with people that really know how to attack properly, or even at an expert level where they grab you in a wrist lock before you know it, and then what to do. That is different than my time with Mr. Planas, as he liked to talk about reading (reading the attack), and he recommends that you train using a two step approach, to give you time to read the attack.

Dr. Chap矇l, has given me material, and experiences to make techniques real, having been K.O.'d by him, and had more than above par training with his students as well. Basically he has given me more of the internal aspects of the Martial Arts / Sciences than anyone else, even going outside Kenpo.

Clearly their are aspects of the Martial Arts that are just missing from many instructors in the Martial Arts, that Dr. Chap矇l has addressed within American Kenpo; Destructive Sequencing, Anatomical Alignment, Positive Body Posture, Negative Body Posture, etc. I have friends that have studied for years in Long Fist, Aikido, Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, White Eyebrow, and many others that have been amazed at what I have shown them that Dr. Chap矇l, has taught me. I think they have slanted foreheads from all the Homer Simpson: "Douuuu!" with a slap on the forehead, when I tell them why they are doing something the way they are. The truth is, that I only know of it because of Sub Level 4 training.

One more story that has been passed down by Mr. Sean Kelley, is a story that Jimmy Woo used to teach at the Pasadena school, and he talked of internal aspects of the arts, and even talked of one in which you could avoid death via strangulation or hanging, and someone he told this to, died of asphyxiation attempting the technique. Mr. Parker found out about this and their relationship ended as the students were obviously not ready for this type of information. So who is to say that Mr. Parker didn't think that some were ready for some the information and passed it on to some and not others. Just as he did with the knife material, and other aspects that Mr. Parker taught different things to different people.

Enough of me being on my soap box, I just feel that some people have been unfairly ganged up on, and stories twisted and turned, without fully trying to comprehend what is being said. These people have taken some of the information and taken offense to it, as if they are doing something bad, and that is not my statement. I am saying that using logic and common sense you should be able to determine that their has been more than one system of American Kenpo, and that many people know many different things. Also having met with some of these people's instructors it becomes more clear that they attack because they have lost many students to Dr. Chap矇l, and the fact that many have ben Black Belts makes it hurt even worse.

These are my observations, no offense is meant, I just needed to state the things I have witnessed and felt.
 
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amk

Guest
Last time he said it, their wasn't anyone below purple in the room, and 3/4 of the room was Black Belt or higher.
 

eternalwhitebelt

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If you were working on something new then you were a beginner, it doesn't matter what your rank is. The two step rule, as well as going slow are aids in learning new information, nothing more. I have worked with Huk where everything we were working on was realistic, spontaneous and full out. He teaches many different things, as do most seniors in the system.
 
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amk

Guest
The material wasn't new, I think Mr. Planas is a great instructor, don't get me wrong. I was mearly pointing out his approach on learning to read attacks vs. others.

In actuallity my post was not supposed to be about Mr. Planas other than what I have been exposed to by him, has further validated things that others try and discredit about Dr. Chap'el. That's it, no other motivation, or intent.
 
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WilliamTLear

Guest
Chapel wrote an email not too long ago that said I do "Strip Mall Kenpo". Frank Trejo was really pleased with that. (Frank's been an instructor of mine for years.)

Chapel has also said that I stalk him from forum to forum. Problem is... I was posting on Martial Talk here for four months before he registered.

Oh well...

I don't care where/when he got his black belt, if he is a doctor or not, and weather there really is a "Sub-Level 4" or "Motion Kenpo". I know the truth, and you're not going to change it.

Sorry guys. :asian:
 

satans.barber

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Originally posted by WilliamTLear

Chapel wrote an email not too long ago that said I do "Strip Mall Kenpo". Frank Trejo was really pleased with that. (Frank's been an instructor of mine for years.)

Chapel has also said that I stalk him from forum to forum. Problem is... I was posting on Martial Talk here for four months before he registered.

Oh well...

I don't care where/when he got his black belt, if he is a doctor or not, and weather there really is a "Sub-Level 4" or "Motion Kenpo". I know the truth, and you're not going to change it.

Sorry guys. :asian:

I do so love to see people sticking up for themselves, go on Billy lad!

Ian.
 
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amk

Guest
Originally posted by WilliamTLear

Chapel wrote an email not too long ago that said I do "Strip Mall Kenpo". Frank Trejo was really pleased with that. (Frank's been an instructor of mine for years.)

Chapel has also said that I stalk him from forum to forum. Problem is... I was posting on Martial Talk here for four months before he registered.

Oh well...

I don't care where/when he got his black belt, if he is a doctor or not, and weather there really is a "Sub-Level 4" or "Motion Kenpo". I know the truth, and you're not going to change it.

Sorry guys. :asian:

So I guess that since you have been in American Kenpo Since 1994, that means you know so much, and so much of the truth. The truth is that you have no idea of where most of this stuff even comes from.
 
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WilliamTLear

Guest
Originally posted by amk

So I guess that since you have been in American Kenpo Since 1994, that means you know so much, and so much of the truth. The truth is that you have no idea of where most of this stuff even comes from.

Tell me now if Trejo is an unreliable source of information, and I will relay the message. :asian:
 
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WilliamTLear

Guest
Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

Or Huk, or Sepulveda, or Edmund, or Pick, shall we continue the list?

Don't bother continuing the list, it's not going to get anyone anywhere. The majority is wrong unless they have used the word motion once before in their life... then they support the exhistance of "Motion Kenpo" and "Sub-Level 4". Oh well... I'm done... I've decided to sign up for the Ultra Uber Kewel Sub-Level One that is being offered Here: Sub-Level One - The Ultimate Partial Art!
 
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amk

Guest
You guys show absolutley no respect for any of the above mentioned Seniors with the way that you represent their names.

Second of all the fact of them being a reliable source needs to be put into context.

William, you never have posted an exact quote from Mr. Trejo, so how do I or anyone else know what you post is said by him, as you and your comrads have twisted words from Dr. Chap'el in whatever manner you preffer, and jumped to conclusions based on statements that he has made.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM, GO AHEAD MAKE A LIST, AS I HAVE POSTED, THE TIME FRAMES WILL MAKE THEM RELIABLE OR UNRELIABLE, AND THE CONTEXT OF THE STATEMENTS.

WHAT EXACTLY DID MR. FRANK TREJO SAY?

I TRUST MR. TREJO, AND RESPECT HIM, BUT YOU HAVE PROVEN THAT YOU TAKE WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT TIME IN AND TIME AGAIN, SO YOUR PARAPHRASING, AND CONCLUSIONS BASED ON WHAT MR. TREJO SAYS ARE WORTHLESS!!!

TAKE A COURSE ON LOGIG AT A GOOD SCHOOL PLEASE, AS YOU NEED TO LEARN SOME ARGUMENTATIVE SKILLS, AS YOUR POINT ONLY DRIVES THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE A PETTY JEOLOUSY, FOR SOME UNEXPLAINABLE REASON.
 
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WilliamTLear

Guest
Originally posted by amk

You guys show absolutley no respect for any of the above mentioned Seniors with the way that you represent their names.

Second of all the fact of them being a reliable source needs to be put into context.

William, you never have posted an exact quote from Mr. Trejo, so how do I or anyone else know what you post is said by him, as you and your comrads have twisted words from Dr. Chap'el in whatever manner you preffer, and jumped to conclusions based on statements that he has made.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM, GO AHEAD MAKE A LIST, AS I HAVE POSTED, THE TIME FRAMES WILL MAKE THEM RELIABLE OR UNRELIABLE, AND THE CONTEXT OF THE STATEMENTS.

WHAT EXACTLY DID MR. FRANK TREJO SAY?

I TRUST MR. TREJO, AND RESPECT HIM, BUT YOU HAVE PROVEN THAT YOU TAKE WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT TIME IN AND TIME AGAIN, SO YOUR PARAPHRASING, AND CONCLUSIONS BASED ON WHAT MR. TREJO SAYS ARE WORTHLESS!!!

TAKE A COURSE ON LOGIG AT A GOOD SCHOOL PLEASE, AS YOU NEED TO LEARN SOME ARGUMENTATIVE SKILLS, AS YOUR POINT ONLY DRIVES THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE A PETTY JEOLOUSY, FOR SOME UNEXPLAINABLE REASON.

I go to see Frank Trejo every other day... He is my friend and one of my Kenpo Mentors... I have a different relationship with Frank than you think. I love him like a dad, and revere him as a Martial Artist.

HOW DARE YOU TELL ME THAT I DON'T RESPECT HIM!!!
 
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amk

Guest
You have not used his name in a respectful manner, and yes I just said it.

I never said that you don't respect him as a person.

Stop reading things the wrong way, read for what is written and said.

I am truely understanding why you don't understand anything.........

This wasn't even the topic, see what happens when you can't logically prevail, you jump to some other form of attack, or defense with no logic. Are you sure you are into Kenpo?
 
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SingingTiger

Guest
Here's a concept I try to live by:

What you choose to say invariably says more about you than your words say about the subject at hand.

I try to live by it, but often fail. Still, experience has taught me that the idea is valid.

Rich
 
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WilliamTLear

Guest
Originally posted by amk

You have not used his name in a respectful manner, and yes I just said it.

I never said that you don't respect him as a person.

Stop reading things the wrong way, read for what is written and said.

I am truely understanding why you don't understand anything.........

This wasn't even the topic, see what happens when you can't logically prevail, you jump to some other form of attack, or defense with no logic. Are you sure you are into Kenpo?

Let's try this again... Frank told me to call him "Frank" and that's what I call him (in respect to his wishes)... in this medium or any other. I'm sorry that you don't get it, but that's the way it is. If you need to clarify this call him. His number is (626) 449-3684.

By the way his number is public information, and on his web site (That I put up for him).

Read a little bit more between the lines, and tell me there is more than blank paper there.
 
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amk

Guest
If that is what you have agreed upon, that is between you and Mr. Trejo.

Out of respect when I am talking about a person in the 3rd party it is appropriate in American Kenpo, and outside of it as well to address them by their Sir name.

The problem is your lack of communication skills, and understading of what has been said.

I simply think that the problem is that you and your instructor Mr. Idol, have mislead yourselves by reading to much into what was said in the past, and now you have gotten other people worked up about it.

As using logic, I have pointed out everything that you and your friends have said to be false, or in fact backing up what Dr. Chap'el has said.

Good luck on your Journey.
 
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WilliamTLear

Guest
Mr. AMK,

I'm sorry that you feel that way.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear
 
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rmcrobertson

Guest
Um...ah...speaking of a lack of communication skills, it ain't "Sir name." It's, "surname," and it refers to one's last name, or family name. However, I do tend to address grown-ups I don't know as, "Mr." and "Ms." It's the way I was brought up.

There are a few too damn many "Sifus," and "senseis," etc. etc, in American martial arts for my taste anyway. Last time I checked, this was a democratic society. I don't see anything wrong with respecting, and representing tradition on the mat and in the studio--but it has been my experience that those who demand titles never truly earn anybody's respect.


The most famous scholar I ever knew, Edward Thompson, asked everbody to call him, "Ed." You may take my word for it that this in no way lowered anybody's respect. My understanding is that Mr. Parker usually went by, Ed," too, but I could be wrong.

More to the point, why not just argue with the Mr. Lear's ideas and facts rather than spraying insults? Why is that more in the spirit of the martial arts than calling Mr. Trejo, "Frank?"

Oh well. This is probably a pointless post.
 
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