Why is style important?

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

We all need to learn:

1. jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, ...
2. front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, back kick, crescent kick, ...
3. finger break, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ...
4. foot sweep, single leg, double legs, hip throw, inner hook, ...
5. full mount, side mount, arm bar, leg bar, neck choke, ...
6. step forward, step backward, step sideway, stealing step, cover step, ...

Those are the tools that we need to have in our toolbox. So, why is style important? Your thought?

 

[skribs127 148]

Once again, I disagree with the premise of your post.

1. A boxer needs to learn the punches you list. In jiu-jitsu you don't. In wrestling you don't. Even in other striking martial arts like Taekwondo you don't.
2. A taekwondoist needs to learn the kicks you mention. But in Muay Thai, you can be pretty well served with just the teep and roundhouse kick. And in many other arts, you can be served without kicks.
3. I disagree that "headlock" even fits into this list, because headlock is not usually linked to a bone break, but is rather a control position. The others you mention are sometimes used for control, but that control comes from the threat of breaking.
4. You don't even need take-downs in Jiu-Jitsu, just pull guard!
5. Some of these fit better into #3. But you don't need to know all the ground positions if you're a boxer.
6. Different styles have different footwork, and different steps.

Your idea that we "all" need to learn something...I disagree with that. In fact, we don't even need to learn martial arts. For most of us, this is a luxury.

 

[drewtoby]

You are assuming the purpose of martial arts training is to learn a complete fighting system. Some people just love the arts and/or cultural aspect, some want to focus in and master a single area, etc.

Also, even within your examples there are different approaches and ways to execute the same techniques. A style provides a unified way to approach at least a subset of these areas.

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

We all need to learn:

1. jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, ...
2. front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, back kick, crescent kick, ...
3. finger break, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ...
4. foot sweep, single leg, double legs, hip throw, inner hook, ...
5. full mount, side mount, arm bar, leg bar, neck choke, ...
6. step forward, step backward, step sideway, stealing step, cover step, ...

What about pointed sticks?

What no back fist, knife hand or axe kick?

Also there some pretty good qinna moves you didn’t list

What about turning, you know not every opponent you face is going to line up in front of you

Those are the tools that we need to have in our toolbox. So, why is style important?

Just because it is not important to you does not mean it isn’t important, or interesting to others. And frankly they don’t need to justify it to you

Your thought?

You are missing the point completely

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

What no back fist, knife hand or axe kick?

Also there some pretty good qinna moves you didn’t list

What about turning, you know not every opponent you face is going to line up in front of you

I just pick up 5 in each category. ",..." means there are more.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

1. A boxer needs to learn the punches you list. In jiu-jitsu you don't.

Maybe you don't need to learn how to punch in sport. But in street fight, you truly don't have choice.

 

[philwhite54 10]

Maybe you don't need to learn how to punch in sport. But in street fight, you truly don't have choice.

I'm 46 and I've been in exactly 0 street fights. Even if you are the most well rounded martial artist, your skill can't prepare you for everything. If you are jumped, or worse, you may not have time to do anything.

Why is style important? I think its more a question of what motivates you. I like punching and kicking so TKD/Karate fit well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

I'm 46 and I've been in exactly 0 street fights. Even if you are the most well rounded martial artist, your skill can't prepare you for everything. If you are jumped, or worse, you may not have time to do anything.

MA skill is like to buy insurance. You hope you don't need to use it.

 

[isshinryuronin18 18]

What about pointed sticks?

What no back fist, knife hand or axe kick?

Also there some pretty good qinna moves you didn’t list

What about turning, you know not every opponent you face is going to line up in front of you


Just because it is not important to you does not mean it isn’t important, or interesting to others. And frankly they don’t need to justify it to you


You are missing the point completely

Here's my list of the 15 most essential offensive moves in standup fighting:

STRIKES
jab
reverse punch/cross
backfist
uppercut
elbow - inward/outward/upward

KICKS
front to groin
side (front leg) to knee or ribs
roundhouse
knee
sweep to inside/outside of opponent's lower leg

GRAPPLING
grabbing arm to pull into a strike
grabbing arm to twist with elbow break or shoulder control
forward takedown with your leg in front of opponent's
rear takedown with your leg behind opponent's
rear choke

Simple, low risk, quick and easy. IMO just these moves well executed with timing and tactics will suffice for most any opportunity or situation. If preparing solely for the street I'd spend 95% of my training time on these alone!

This is a list of what I think are the most useful attacks. Additionally, there is defense, footwork and ground fighting, and these too should be kept to a minimum, simple and with low risk/exposure. Always quality over quantity.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

If preparing solely for the street I'd spend 95% of my training time on these alone!

If everybody all spends 95% of training time to maintain their toolbox skill, the way you train your side kick should not have much different from the way I train my side kick. The term "style" will have no meaning.

Every time I train kick/punch on my heavy bag, I truly don't know which MA style I'm training.

 

[isshinryuronin18 18]

A lot of "style" goes out the window in actual combat as well as in tournament fighting - but there are a few stylistic things that may survive. For example, my style uses the vertical punch and snapping kicks more than TKD type kicks. I use them in the dojo, tournaments and combat. Also, some styles are more power oriented, others rely more on quick combos. Some emphasize close range, others, long. All of these work as long as the tactics support them and it feels "right" for you.

 

[frank raud73]

Maybe you don't need to learn how to punch in sport. But in street fight, you truly don't have choice.

So, a judoka is incapable of defending themselves in a street fight?

 

[Prince_Alarming66 2]

It isn't, to my mind. Over the years I've trained a crazy mish mash of karate, judo, MMA, muay thai and kung fu based on what was being taught nearby, what I could afford at the time, and whether I was well enough or not. I don't think this has had a negative impact on my learning experience, it's just made me extremely annoying to instructors who don't want non-karate techniques in sparring.

 

[Prince_Alarming66 2]

Also, pretty much the only martial arts I haven't been to at least one session of are HEMA and wrestling, and guess which ones I really want to try?

 

[jks9199100 24]

You can learn individual techniques until the cow comes home. Military combatives or police control tactics programs are often compliations of techniques from a variety of styles that have been evaluated and selected to meet the legal and practical goals of the program, for example. A boxer who decides to enter kickboxing could simply learn about 3 kicks and be competitive...

What a style or system does is provide a general structure and philosophy of movement to hang the techniques on. Principles of power generation, range, targeting, and so on... In a lot of ways, a style builds techniques from prinicples, rather than "that seems cool..." Having common principles makes it easier to combine individual techniques. For example, boxing tends to generate power from the shoulders, hips and foot pivot. Those principles might make adding a kick to a combination sequence hard, since the hips may be in the wrong place, and he might not be able to generate the power he wants out of the kick.

 

[Prince_Alarming66 2]

Also, I'd include underhooks and maybe back mount

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

So, a judoka is incapable of defending themselves in a street fight?

May be the question should be asked as: Why would anybody not want to learn the striking art? When Sanda was popular in Taiwan, all striker wanted to cross train the throwing art.

In order to obtain a clinch, you have to deal with the flying fists and long range kicks.

IMO, sport is the path. Combat is the goal. Toward the end, the integration of

- kick,
- strike
- lock
- throw

should be your goal.

 

[frank raud73]

May be the question should be asked as: Why would anybody not want to learn the striking art? When Sanda was popular in Taiwan, all striker wanted to cross train the throwing art.

In order to obtain a clinch, you have to deal with the flying fists and long range kicks.

IMO, sport is the path. Combat is the goal. Toward the end, the integration of

- kick,
- strike
- lock
- throw

should be your goal.

View attachment 33315

So, again, rather than reframing the question, a simple yes or no answer to my question...is a judoka incapable of defending themselves in a street fight?

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

So, again, rather than reframing the question, a simple yes or no answer to my question...is a judoka incapable of defending themselves in a street fight?

There is no simple yes or no answer for your question. My answer is it depends on how much striking experience does that Judo guy may have.

A judo guy needs to enter kicking/punching range in order to obtain a clinch. If a clinch cannot be obtained, his throwing skill cannot be applied. In a fist flying environment, the Judo guy needs to have striking skill to deal with striking.

 

[frank raud73]

There is no simple yes or no answer for your question. My answer is it depends on how much striking experience does that Judo guy may have.

A judo guy needs to enter kicking/punching range in order to obtain a clinch. If a clinch cannot be obtained, his throwing skill cannot be applied. In a fist flying environment, the Judo guy needs to have striking skill to deal with striking.

So, you're saying the judoka has to know how to punch in order to fight? Sounds pretty much like you're saying no without saying no. So he can't eat a punch to enter, can't use kumi kata skills to block a punch, can't parry a punch to set up an osoto gari, can't sweep the puncher front leg with de ashai barai, can't do an ankle pick, a double leg( or single leg) takedown? All this without ever throwing a punch.