Instead of learning technique from form/Kata, why don't you create it by common sense?

[Same Trick60 11]

All( almost) traditional kata/taolu/forms begin with a defensive move setting the idea of self defense rather than dueling or even aggressor mindset

 

[windwalker099115 145]

What people don't know is, when you use the long fist walking to escape, you suppose to kick the dirt back at your opponent's face. Since your footwork include dirt back kicking, it just looks funny.

When I was training Plum Flower Mantis in Korea under my teacher, Mr. Park — his formal name Park Chi Moon — I asked about a movement that seemed a little strange.

It involved dropping low, then rising and opening both palms.

He said: “In the first part, you’re picking up dirt.
As you rise, you’re throwing it into the other person’s eyes.”

We also had movements where you would kick dirt back toward the opponent.


Interesting background

(Shifu Park Chil Sung (born 1930 in what is now North Korea) He first began studying gong fu within his family at a very young age (around 7 or 8 years old). He later traveled around the Korean peninsula studying under any master he could find. At that time he met his main master, shifu Lin Ping Jiang.

During the Korean War, he fought as a guerrilla for the South. After the war, he relocated to South Korea, where he later worked for the South Korean equivalent of the American CIA, training in hand to hand combat.

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

you’re picking up dirt.
As you rise, you’re throwing it into the other person’s eyes.”

This video at 0.57 and 1.44, some teachers say it's a groin strike. Every time you strike your opponent's groin like this, your opponent will punch at your head. The true application of this is to grab a handful of dirt from the ground and throw at your opponent's eyes.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

All( almost) traditional kata/taolu/forms begin with a defensive move setting the idea of self defense rather than dueling or even aggressor mindset

This is true as kata were developed as responses to self-defense situations, often times against common grabs. HOWEVER, this doesn't preclude the offensive practice of initiating an attack using kicks, punches or other strikes as practiced in kihon when the situation called for it. Kata is just one aspect of karate.

 

[punisher731]

How do you train "civilian self-defense"? You find a training partner and spar for 10,000 rounds. When you spar, you are doing "sport competition".

I'm not sure if you are arguing just to be right, or if you don't understand training scenarios. But, it doesn't automatically make it "sport competition".

Next, you are STILL framing your reference point on combat sports and a specific ruleset.

Lastly, you STILL are misusing what "common sense" means. Developing fighting strategies based on hours and hours of training experience is NOT "common sense". It also contradicts professional boxers who disagree with how YOU want to use YOUR jab as a strategy. For example, Jack Dempsey used his jab as a power punch and called it a "jolt". Dempsey’s style was based on extreme aggression, power punching, and closing distance quickly, rather than playing at range with quick jabs to set something up.

It should be pointed out that Dempsey's style is a LOT closer to what the strategy is in most TMA's.

 

[wab25]

All( almost) traditional kata/taolu/forms begin with a defensive move setting the idea of self defense rather than dueling or even aggressor mindset

It kind of depends on your interpretation.

Funakoshi introduced a new Kata: Taikyoku Shodan. This Kata starts with Gedan Barai and then a lunge punch. Funakoshi taught that Gedan Barai was a throw.... you step your knee behind your opponents leading leg and the "blocking" motion is used to throw the opponent backwards over your knee.

Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate

I've written plenty about Lyoto Machida 's karate over the past two years, but I thought we would try something different...

bleacherreport.com

The idea of martial arts being "defensive" arts or "self defense" arts is a new concept.... a new marketing concept....

 

[Holmejr13 12]

There is actually a lot of technique in a jab, let alone combo’s. Boxers take a long time learning the idiosyncrasies of the jab as prob with the CMA’s. But those idiosyncrasies need to be taught, the student doesn’t just conjure them up. To say “just create it out of common sense” is a bit simplistic.

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

To say “just create it out of common sense” is a bit simplistic.

Here is an example.

Both you and your opponent have right side forward (uniform stance). Your powerful back leg roundhouse kick can only kick on your opponent's back. But suddenly your opponent switches sides, his chest is exposing to you, your left back leg round house kick can hit on his chest right at that moment. If this happens a lot in your sparring, you start to develop the "common sense" to "throw back leg roundhouse kick when your opponent switches sides (if start from uniform stance)".

You don't learn this from form/kata training. Your MA teacher may not even mention this to you. You just find it out from your own sparring experience. It then becomes your "common sense". Later on, those "common sense" will become your "strategy".

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

I'm not sure if you are arguing just to be right, or if you don't understand training scenarios. But, it doesn't automatically make it "sport competition".

Next, you are STILL framing your reference point on combat sports and a specific ruleset.

Combat is your goal. Sport is your path.

If you can take down 1,000 opponents, the chance that you can take down the 1,001th opponent can be high. Without "sport", where are you going to accumulate your 1,000 take down experience?

So, if combat is your goal and you don't want to take the "spot" path, which path will you take?

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

This video at 0.57 and 1.44, some teachers say it's a groin strike. Every time you strike your opponent's groin like this, your opponent will punch at your head. The true application of this is to grab a handful of dirt from the ground and throw at your opponent's eyes.

As the move in question is being executed with the right hand, what is the left doing? It looks like it could be blocking a strike and grabbing the opponent's arm, pulling him in for a groin/bladder strike. With the opponent's balance/structure thus compromised, a counterpunch to the head will be difficult to effectively launch.

This possible application is at least a good interpretation as flicking dirt at him, especially as the right hand doesn't seem to go low enough to signal that it's going to ground level. Not saying this isn't a good tactic, just that it may not the right one here. But there are many moves in kata with multiple uses, and in this sense both interpretations can be valid. I like the one I proposed most

 

[wab25]

Here is an example.

Both you and your opponent have right side forward (uniform stance). Your powerful back leg roundhouse kick can only kick on your opponent's back. But suddenly your opponent switches sides, his chest is exposing to you, your left back leg round house kick can hit on his chest right at that moment. If this happens a lot in your sparring, you start to develop the "common sense" to "throw back leg roundhouse kick when your opponent switches sides (if start from uniform stance)".

You don't learn this from form/kata training. Your MA teacher may not even mention this to you. You just find it out from your own sparring experience. It then becomes your "common sense". Later on, those "common sense" will become your "strategy".

First... your MA teacher should be teaching you this....

Second... if you study your kata / forms... it is in there.... from both sides. But, you have to study your kata to find it. If you are doing your kata to the imaginary opponent, that is in the right place all the time... what is the effect of the move you are doing? What would the other guy be doing if this hit, or kick or block landed? Each move in the kata should create the opening for the following move. The other guy should change stance in many different places.... Where he should change stances, the following technique will be taking advantage of those openings. This is one reason for the specific timing used in the kata.... to show the different timings needed to hit various openings within the other persons movement.

Additionally, the kata show you how to make those stance changes in ways to minimize or cover those openings. They show you how to show those openings to invite the attack, you want to counter.

No, you are right.... no Martial Art contains a complete, exhaustive list of every possible combination of techniques.... But, they do cover the different tactics. Once you understand the tactics, with a few examples provided in the kata, you should be able to adapt the tactic to a different set of moves, and different situations.

If you are looking for the exhaustive list of every possible combination... you won't find it. You would not even be able to train them all....But, the tactics and strategies are there for you to find. This is how Kata teaches you.... you study it to find a tactic or strategy within the kata. You practice and learn to do that one well. Then you take that same idea, and express it with different moves, different techniques in different situations. This should open up more things to find in other katas, which will lead you back to this one, seen from a new point of view.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

So, if combat is your goal and you don't want to take the "spot" path, which path will you take?

This works well if the attacker happens to have trained in your art. Most street combat however will be with an opponent not formally trained as you, so will fight much different than the sport opponents you have experience with. Your sport-developed "common sense" will not be so effective in this case.

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

As the move in question is being executed with the right hand, what is the left doing? It looks like it could be blocking a strike and grabbing the opponent's arm, pulling him in for a groin/bladder strike. With the opponent's balance/structure thus compromised, a counterpunch to the head will be difficult to effectively launch.

This possible application is at least a good interpretation as flicking dirt at him, especially as the right hand doesn't seem to go low enough to signal that it's going to ground level. Not saying this isn't a good tactic, just that it may not the right one here. But there are many moves in kata with multiple uses, and in this sense both interpretations can be valid. I like the one I proposed most

When you do that move with right hand, your left hand is on top of your right upper arm. Your left hand is not protecting anything. You just slap you left hand on your right upper arm so you can throw the dirt that you have just picked up from the ground toward your opponent's eyes.

Later on, when I trained this form, I require myself to touch my right hand on the ground before sending out.

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

This works well if the attacker happens to have trained in your art. Most street combat however will be with an opponent not formally trained as you, so will fight much different than the sport opponents you have experience with. Your sport-developed "common sense" will not be so effective in this case.

Here is another example.

You want to train "dodge rocks throwing". You draw a small circle. You then stay insde that circle. Your training partner/partners throw tennis balls at you. You try to dodge. if any tennse ball hit your body you lost that round.

- Is this a "sport" training.
- Can this training be able to help you to dodge rock throwing in a street fight?
- Is there any other "non-sport" training that can help you to achieve the same goal?

MA skill development requires 2 persons. When you train with your partner, there is a basic rule that you need to follow and that is "you should not kill him". As long as such rule exist, it's "sport" training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

Do you learn the following from your

- form training?
- teacher's instruction? or
- sparring/wrestling experience?

- If your opponent wants to X, help him to do more X than he really wants to.
- If you are right hand person, attack with your left hand first. Make your opponent to think that you are a left-hand person.
- If you want to push, you pull first. If you want to pull, you push first.
- Move yourself out of your opponent's moving path and lead him into the emptiness.
- Never cross your legs when you are within your opponent's foot sweeping range.
- Always move in your back leg first when you are within your opponent's kicking range.
- ...

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

To use your right hook to hit on your opponent chest. You then use the same right hook to hit on your opponent's head. This same arm hook-hook combo only exist in 1 of the praying mantis form 七星摘要 (7 star summary form). I have not seen this combo exist in any other CMA form yet.

If you only learn from your forms, you may never have a chance to train this combo. Where did a boxer learn this same arm hook-hook combo? Boxing doesn't have form. They develop this combo from sparring.

 

[skribs114 134]

Do you learn the following from your

- form training?
- teacher's instruction? or
- sparring/wrestling experience?

- If your opponent wants to X, help him to do more X than he really wants to.
- If you are right hand person, attack with your left hand first. Make your opponent to think that you are a left-hand person.
- If you want to push, you pull first. If you want to pull, you push first.
- Move yourself out of your opponent's moving path and lead him into the emptiness.
- Never cross your legs when you are within your opponent's foot sweeping range.
- Always move in your back leg first when you are within your opponent's kicking range.
- ...

This isn't "common sense". So again we don't understand your point.

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

I'm not sure 'common sense' is really even an applicable concept. Isn't the point of martial arts to teach stuff you wouldn't necessarily think of on your own? Otherwise we could all just beat the crikey out of each other three times a week for an hour or so and call it martial arts. Actually, hold that thought...

 

[wab25]

To use your right hook to hit on your opponent chest. You then use the same right hook to hit on your opponent's head. This same arm hook-hook combo only exist in 1 of the praying mantis form 七星摘要 (7 star summary form). I have not seen this combo exist in any other CMA form yet.

Why do you require every possible combination of techniques to be included in the forms? Hint: it is not possible to do, because there are too many possible combinations.

This is why the forms teach higher level stuff, rather than rote memorization. Many Kata / forms in many arts introduce the idea of using the same chamber / entry / set up to attack different targets and they use the fact that when you hit the first target, it opens the second target. But by learning the higher level idea, you can now apply the same idea to other things.... like kicking.... kick low round house, then kick high round house off the impact of the first. There are a lot of other techniques and other ways to implement that same idea, other than hook body, hook head. Why do you insist on limiting the techniques you can use, to a list of techniques on a list?

 

[punisher731]

Combat is your goal. Sport is your path.

If you can take down 1,000 opponents, the chance that you can take down the 1,001th opponent can be high. Without "sport", where are you going to accumulate your 1,000 take down experience?

So, if combat is your goal and you don't want to take the "spot" path, which path will you take?

You still seem to be conflating terms in order to be "right".

Combat soldiers in the past (and present) used drilling to instill their combat methods.

You keep conflating any type of scenario training and drilling with "sports". They are not the same.