Why is style important?

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

If your opinion is not important in this thread, 1 why did you start it? 2 Why do you continue to give your opinion?

I have trained many styles. When I punch, I truly don't know I'm throwing a long fist punch, praying mantis punch, Baji punch, Taiji punch, XingYi punch, or WC punch. I don't know I'm the only person who feel this way or not. That's why I start this thread and like to hear other's opinions on this.

I don't want to start a thread so I can argue with everybody. That's why I say, "My opinion is not important in this thread discussion".

When you start a thread and people give opinions, if you don't respond, people may think you ignore their opinions. If you do respond to people's post, it's hard not to inject your own opinion into it.

A: Why is style important?
B: My opinion is ...
C: My opinion is ...
...
H: Where is the OP? He started this thread, but he has never participated in any discussion.

There are many threads discussion that the OP starts a thread and then disappear from the face of the earth. IMO, that's impolite for the online discussion.

 

[Wing Woo Gar63 25]

Style is important because most people will hide what they are bad at by focusing on what they are good at.

If you do MMA and can't grapple You might get away with it.

If you do BJJ and can't grapple. You won't.

Style.

Hide it from opponents or from critics?

 

[Wing Woo Gar63 25]

I honestly want to put a Ric Flair meme in here about how “ I can style, I can profile, I can dance all night “

 

[Wing Woo Gar63 25]

… Still walking around in these Gators…

 

[wab25]

I have trained many styles. When I punch, I truly don't know I'm throwing a long fist punch, praying mantis punch, Baji punch, Taiji punch, XingYi punch, or WC punch.

Thats because you are focusing on how you are punching instead of why you are punching...

I cannot explain this in Chinese arts.... as I have not studied them at all... so I will use arts I know more about....

I am throwing a straight right punch:

1. If I am a Shotokan Karate guy (one punch, one kill), my goal is to KO the guy with one and only one punch. I will set up and look for an opportunity, then punch with maximum speed and power to hit the target and KO him with that one punch.
2. If I am a boxer, I may be using this punch as a set up punch... I want to see how he defends this punch and how he reads it.... so that I can feint this punch, and throw an uppercut instead, when he thinks he is defending the straight right.
3. If I am a boxer with a different style of boxing, I may be throwing this punch as the start of a 6 punch combination... I expect my first 3 punches to be defended, but punches 4, 5 and 6 should land.
4. If I am a Danzan Ryu guy, I may be throwing this punch so that the guy will raise his left elbow, while trying to defend the punch, and to get him to lean away from it, so that I can close distance, secure the underhook and hopefully keep him leaning over.... no structure or balance.... I am in position to throw him.

So when I get on the heavy bag, I think about why I am punching, what the next thing will be and that effects the details of the punch I throw. For each different "why" there will be different details in the punch thrown, even if the gross body mechanics are very similar.

 

[Wing Woo Gar63 25]

Thats because you are focusing on how you are punching instead of why you are punching...

I cannot explain this in Chinese arts.... as I have not studied them at all... so I will use arts I know more about....

I am throwing a straight right punch:

1. If I am a Shotokan Karate guy (one punch, one kill), my goal is to KO the guy with one and only one punch. I will set up and look for an opportunity, then punch with maximum speed and power to hit the target and KO him with that one punch.
2. If I am a boxer, I may be using this punch as a set up punch... I want to see how he defends this punch and how he reads it.... so that I can feint this punch, and throw an uppercut instead, when he thinks he is defending the straight right.
3. If I am a boxer with a different style of boxing, I may be throwing this punch as the start of a 6 punch combination... I expect my first 3 punches to be defended, but punches 4, 5 and 6 should land.
4. If I am a Danzan Ryu guy, I may be throwing this punch so that the guy will raise his left elbow, while trying to defend the punch, and to get him to lean away from it, so that I can close distance, secure the underhook and hopefully keep him leaning over.... no structure or balance.... I am in position to throw him.

So when I get on the heavy bag, I think about why I am punching, what the next thing will be and that effects the details of the punch I throw. For each different "why" there will be different details in the punch thrown, even if the gross body mechanics are very similar.

So, the way I read this is that you are thinking about strategy as your driver on how to do a thing.

 

[Flying Crane]

Thats because you are focusing on how you are punching instead of why you are punching...

I cannot explain this in Chinese arts.... as I have not studied them at all... so I will use arts I know more about....

I am throwing a straight right punch:

1. If I am a Shotokan Karate guy (one punch, one kill), my goal is to KO the guy with one and only one punch. I will set up and look for an opportunity, then punch with maximum speed and power to hit the target and KO him with that one punch.
2. If I am a boxer, I may be using this punch as a set up punch... I want to see how he defends this punch and how he reads it.... so that I can feint this punch, and throw an uppercut instead, when he thinks he is defending the straight right.
3. If I am a boxer with a different style of boxing, I may be throwing this punch as the start of a 6 punch combination... I expect my first 3 punches to be defended, but punches 4, 5 and 6 should land.
4. If I am a Danzan Ryu guy, I may be throwing this punch so that the guy will raise his left elbow, while trying to defend the punch, and to get him to lean away from it, so that I can close distance, secure the underhook and hopefully keep him leaning over.... no structure or balance.... I am in position to throw him.

So when I get on the heavy bag, I think about why I am punching, what the next thing will be and that effects the details of the punch I throw. For each different "why" there will be different details in the punch thrown, even if the gross body mechanics are very similar.

In Chinese methods, style informs how you punch and how you go about training the punch. Among other things.

In Japanese methods, you may notice other things that identify one style from another. I suspect that cultural context could inform how one answers the question. But the bottom line, as I see it, is that style/method does make a difference in one way or another.

If one cannot tell “how/why/whatever” they are punching, I question how well they understand the style they claim to have studied.

 

[Wing Woo Gar63 25]

I confess, I am not completely certain what is really being discussed here.

 

[Teapot]

Here are my thoughts.

First, style is important because different martial art styles have different contexts.

I think this is really cool.

For example, suppose you are a Western boxer who wants to try out Kickboxing.

I think Boxing is great and effective, but according to a 6X World Champion Kickboxer, some things would need to be adjusted for the boxer.

For example, the signature head movement in Boxing becomes a liability in kickboxing. The boxer might slip a jab, and then his head runs straight into a kick. Or maybe the boxer weaves and ducks really low and runs straight into a rising knee.

All of a sudden, this simple change in context exposes weaknesses that were not considered weaknesses in a Boxing context. What is a good habit in one context becomes a bad habit in a different context.

I find it really interesting how a change in context can explain some of the differences in style.

Another example would be how wrestlers or Push Hand competitors like to lean their head against the opponent. From a traditional Chinese martial art paradigm, their face is just exposed. Even when they are up close, you can hit their face with a shoulder or a rising elbow.

In a sport Shuai Jiao context, they may like to wrap both arms around the opponent's waist. But from an old-school Chinese martial arts perspective, they would not want to do that because both arms are preoccupied, and the face is just exposed. Nothing is guarding the face. It's just free access to the eyes, nose, throat, etc...

There are a lot of applications that simply do not neatly fit into either striking or grappling due to how blurred they are. For example, if you stomp the side of someone's knee to throw them while bashing their face... is that striking or grappling? It's basically both at the same time.

Consider a game of Chess. On your first move, you only have 20 possible moves. That tree of moves explodes the deeper you get into the game.

Likewise, the idea that martial arts appear similar due to a punch, parry, kick, and takedown is really operating through the lens of the engagement.

There are only so many ways you can engage an opponent. But after that engagement, once you get into some complex situation, then the differences in style become more apparent.

In Chess, you can actually give names to different openings, but Chess players do not give names to endgames... because that is impractical.

You are only able to list all this stuff in terms of engagement.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

I am throwing a straight right punch:

1. If I am a Shotokan Karate guy (one punch, one kill), my goal is to KO the guy with one and only one punch. I will set up and look for an opportunity, then punch with maximum speed and power to hit the target and KO him with that one punch.
2. If I am a boxer, I may be using this punch as a set up punch... I want to see how he defends this punch and how he reads it.... so that I can feint this punch, and throw an uppercut instead, when he thinks he is defending the straight right.
3. If I am a boxer with a different style of boxing, I may be throwing this punch as the start of a 6 punch combination... I expect my first 3 punches to be defended, but punches 4, 5 and 6 should land.
4. If I am a Danzan Ryu guy, I may be throwing this punch so that the guy will raise his left elbow, while trying to defend the punch, and to get him to lean away from it, so that I can close distance, secure the underhook and hopefully keep him leaning over.... no structure or balance.... I am in position to throw him.

What if you have trained:

- Shotokan Karate,
- boxing, and
- Danzan Ryu?

What will be your punch?

If you just train 1 style, you will have that style flavor. If you have trained many styles, you will have flavors form all those styles that you have trained. So, what will be your mixed style flavors supposed to be?

 

[drop bear127 3]

Hide it from opponents or from critics?

Yourself.

 

[isshinryuronin18 18]

Style is important in this respect (And likely others as well. This is just one way to look at it):

Do the techniques match that style's fighting doctrine? These two components must be in harmony. For example, my style is based on close range self-defense concepts. This means quick, low risk techniques. Now, what techniques help execute that doctrine? Low snapping kicks, snapping vertical punches, a relatively high and shallow stance for mobility and lots of grabbing, pulling twisting and immobilizing. The fighting doctrine (general strategy) dictates what's in the toolbox.

Compare this with Shotokan's classic doctrine - Perfection of technique form, longer range and execution done with decisive commitment. More of a "one punch, one kill" view. This is reflected in the techniques. Deep stance, powerful thrusting kicks and punches extended and locked out, etc. This comes with a higher risk, IMO, but that is part of their "commitment" component (I suspect rooted in the Samurai ethos).

I think this is a valid general comparison. Of course, there is some bleed-over between the two, but one cannot mistake watching them that they are two different styles. A Shotokan step in lunge punch looks nothing like an isshinryu step-in punch (which is not very common in that style). Both can be very effective when done by an expert.

This I think is what makes up and defines a style - A particular view of combat and the accompanying selected techniques which allow it to be effectively carried out. There are also styles that may share the same general doctrine but carry it out using somewhat differently, selecting their unique methods. There's more than one way to win in most situations. But those methods must be in synch not only with their general view of fighting but allow the weapons in the toolbox to naturally work together.

In conclusion the value of style can be said that it helps ensure compatibility between the vision and how it's carried out. The way this is done gives each style their own identity.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

why is style important? Your thought?

Thoughts,

Style, a way or method that addresses three things: purpose, goal, and intent — all of which require clarity. For some it might take some time to understand this.

Without clarity, people may train toward a goal that doesn’t match the purpose of their training. That’s why I ask everyone I work with: What do you hope to get out of this? — in other words, what’s your intent? If their expectations don’t match what I offer, I’ll refer them to someone who’s a better fit.

Some might see “style” as restrictive because it doesn’t seem to contain what they’re looking for. More often, it’s a lack of clarity — they may not realize that their chosen training won’t help them reach their intended goal.

No style arises from style once a certain level is reached — reflecting the person expressing it. Allowing freedom of expression and the ability to use methods as needed, all within the context of one’s goals.

Observers may say, “They’re a boxer,” “a judoka,” or “a Taiji exponent,” but the person themselves may not see it.
In that sense, all training becomes an expression of self — whether or not the practitioner realizes it.

Some say they train for combat. If so, they should understand how to die well.

 

[Wing Woo Gar63 25]

Yourself.

Well if people can’t be brutally honest with themselves about themselves then the style won’t matter much at all. That said, I think most people gravitate towards things they do well and feel confident about.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

In a sport Shuai Jiao context, they may like to wrap both arms around the opponent's waist. But from an old-school Chinese martial arts perspective, they would not want to do that because both arms are preoccupied, and the face is just exposed. Nothing is guarding the face. It's just free access to the eyes, nose, throat, etc...

You have to deal with punches before your arms can wrap around your opponent's waist. After you have achieved that, your opponent's punches may not be able to bother you anymore because you have passed the effective punching range.

Here is an example.

 

[drop bear127 3]

Well if people can’t be brutally honest with themselves about themselves then the style won’t matter much at all. That said, I think most people gravitate towards things they do well and feel confident about.

Not good people. They gravitate to stuff they are bad at.

 

[wab25]

So, the way I read this is that you are thinking about strategy as your driver on how to do a thing.

In this example, I am using strategy as a driver. There are more drivers... but this was the easiest to illustrate.

The more I think about this discussion the more I think about boxing.... 5 punches.... but so many styles....

 

[wab25]

What if you have trained:

- Shotokan Karate,
- boxing, and
- Danzan Ryu?

What will be your punch?

If you just train 1 style, you will have that style flavor. If you have trained many styles, you will have flavors form all those styles that you have trained. So, what will be your mixed style flavors supposed to be?

Every person will put it together a little differently.... hopefully, they will be able to adjust to the situation. But, before you can put them together in a meaningful way, you have to understand the three distinct styles... if you see every straight right punch is the same as every other straight right punch, you are in no position to understand style.... or the options provided by studying these three arts.

That is the difference between having a collection of techniques and having a martial art. Just because I own every tool ever made... does not make me a master mechanic... even if I know the screw driver is for screws and the wrench is for nuts... owning the tools and being able to operate the tools does not help you to understand how to diagnose the problem or come up with the strategy to fix the problem.

 

[Teapot]

You have to deal with punches before your arms can wrap around your opponent's waist. After you have achieved that, your opponent's punches may not be able to bother you anymore because you have passed the effective punching range.

Here is an example.

Who said anything about punches?

Clawing, scraping with knuckles, pressing into throat or eyes, they don't need to be strikes. I am talking about close range here.

One of the reasons this doesn't seem obvious, as shown in your video, is that their natural response when the opponent got close to wrap the waist was to wrap the waist back. So it becomes two people hugging each other's torsos. As a consequence, their arms are preoccupied.

When both parties wrap their arms around each other's waists, in that position, they can't really afford to let go either; they're holding on for dear life.

Consider if an arm is instead over the opponent's shoulder, instead of through their armpit. One option is to pull the opponent's head and smash them with your shoulder. When the arm is in the position of being over the shoulder, there is a lot more options and the opponent's face becomes a lot more obvious of a target.

The other risk to getting that close and wrapping the waist is being headbutted.

 

[HighKick]

Style is important because most people will hide what they are bad at by focusing on what they are good at.

If you do MMA and can't grapple You might get away with it.

If you do BJJ and can't grapple. You won't.

Style.

I agree, but there is an element of 'you don't know what you don't know' here.
I do feel there is Great value in knowing all you can while a person is still able to be truly competitive. As you say, most all people will have their favorite techniques.
When we get older or more unable, maybe it is time to dive deep into one style in all aspects.
It has worked well for me.