Repetitions in forms

mograph

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Slight detour here sorry. Were left handers in the East also made to use their right as happened in the West making it fairly certain the attack would be 'right handed'?
Oh, yes: right-handers were definitely switched.

 

tkdroamer

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If the reason is lost, then it no longer matters. What matters is the reason we currently have, and whether that reason is enough or not.
To me, this rings of having foundational issues, but I have learned to see more in the traditional teachings over the years. Certainly, some of this comes later on as a person extends their horizon. Sometimes it is hard to even know what to ask or even when to as why.
If you break down the form sets into gross movements, you can see that there is quite a lot of repetition. However, there is more slight changes to each movement as the form set progresses. Changing stance for example. Working from ideal base stances to stances that are easily off balance. I would aver there are as many movements that are diametrically opposed as there are mirrored.
 
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JowGaWolf

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More than likely, although I don't have specific information on it, but if we make the assumption that they weren't forced to switch over, it is estimated that 90% of the world's population is naturally right handed. So, training for the most likely attach, things would be set up against the right hand.
I read a long yime ago that right hand vs left hand is often due to religious and cultural influences where parents often set that learning path. Each culture has it's own story but in general the right hand was often seen as the good hand.

It makes sense when it's been said there is no evidence of early tools being left hand or right hand tools. We really don't see this concept until religions and cultural concepts come about.

Eastern countries are full of spiritual belief and rituals. Certain this have to be done in a specified manner.
 

tkdroamer

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I read a long yime ago that right hand vs left hand is often due to religious and cultural influences where parents often set that learning path. Each culture has it's own story but in general the right hand was often seen as the good hand.

It makes sense when it's been said there is no evidence of early tools being left hand or right hand tools. We really don't see this concept until religions and cultural concepts come about.

Eastern countries are full of spiritual belief and rituals. Certain this have to be done in a specified manner.
I would have to add that religious in this context is akin to witchy stuff of old.
I am uber left-handed. Despite my parent's extreme attempts, I could not be switch.
 

Tez3

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I read a long yime ago that right hand vs left hand is often due to religious and cultural influences where parents often set that learning path. Each culture has it's own story but in general the right hand was often seen as the good hand.

It makes sense when it's been said there is no evidence of early tools being left hand or right hand tools. We really don't see this concept until religions and cultural concepts come about.

Eastern countries are full of spiritual belief and rituals. Certain this have to be done in a specified manner.
I'm wondering how much training was made more difficult by making people switch.
I taught kata to a lad who had learning difficulties, he could not get left and right straight, not actually unusual when teaching kata even with adults. I found tying a piece of cloth around one wrist and putting a light wrist weight on the other worked, 'light arm' and 'heavy arm'. He, like a lot of people I've taught have loved the repetition of kata, both within the kata itself and of repeating them.
 

Gyakuto

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No problem, I'm always curious about it because my son and husband are left handed, my daughter and I right. King George Vl was left handed but made to use his right and ended up with the stutter that blighted his life as king. It's known forcing children to do this can cause stuttering and learning problems.
Im afraid that its a complete myth!
 

Gyakuto

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I had a dentist friend who said he was ambidextrous with his hands although he preferred to write with his left and kick a football with his right. He used to stress me and prove a point by getting up halfway through performing my dental procedure and switching to my other side and his other hand
 

Tez3

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Im afraid that its a complete myth!
Nope. I didn't say his stutter was actually caused by making him change but that he started stuttering and it was known that forcing them to change hands could cause stuttering. Sadly as little is known now as was known them but at least in most places left handers are left alone.
 

Gyakuto

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Nope. I didn't say his stutter was actually caused by making him change but that he started stuttering and it was known that forcing them to change hands could cause stuttering. Sadly as little is known now as was known them but at least in most places left handers are left alone.
Have a look at the date of that article and remember The Lancet published Walkfields false paper on the MMR vaccine causing autism!
 

Earl Weiss

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Not trying to trash TKD, but if we look at a game of telephone we can see where information is lost.
I use that example as well. However, for those who practice the Chang Hon Style there are extensive written materials. This prevents some of the "Telephone Game" issue, but then leads to some thinking (erroneously) that the written materials were intended to be the exclusive or all encompassing application of the motion.
 

Earl Weiss

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I remember listening to an instructor who got his BB in Korea in the 60's. He won a first edition copy of Gen. Choi's first book in Korean in a tournament. According to this instructor, Gen. Choi stated in the book that they were not taught the deeper meaning of the moves beyond the block/punch/kick applications. This was removed later on from the book.
Good story but I expect if true I would have heard it before. Which is not to say only the Block / Punch / kick aren't taught, but doubting the line specifically stating anything bout not teaching "Deeper Meaning". Would luv to see a photo of the alleged line and get it translated. Also wonder if "First Edition" refers to the one also published in English in 1965 or a rather succinct text circa 1959 or so.
 

Earl Weiss

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Battlefield warfare was long gone by this time, not to say thugs did not have access to clubs and the occasional knife. Funakoshi and Miyagi notably owned revered copies of the Bubishi, one of the earliest existing MA compilations known.
I have the English translation. Who knows what gets lost in translation.
 

Earl Weiss

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I think for most purposes we can view "karate" as the MA developed in Okinawa by combining their native MA with Chinese kung fu during the later 1700's to early 1800's. Battlefield warfare was long gone by this time,
I understand. but the point remains as to whether an evolution would consciously or not remove a tradition of blocking to the left side which would have been the non weapon / weaker side more likely to be attacked.
 

Tez3

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Have a look at the date of that article and remember The Lancet published Walkfields false paper on the MMR vaccine causing autism!
Lol, they also withdrew it when proved false. No one is infallible. Date of the article? Meh. The king has been dead since 1952. doesn't make it less interesting and there's been no notable research since the article was printed.
 

Gyakuto

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Lol, they also withdrew it when proved false. No one is infallible. Date of the article? Meh. The king has been dead since 1952. doesn't make it less interesting and there's been no notable research since the article was printed.
Yes they did, but its really hard to get a paper published because the journal asks experts in the field to kick holes in the research. If they cant do too much damage, it gets published. In the very first tutorial our new students at Uni attended, we asked them, with the tutors help, to criticise the Wakefields paper.find fault with it. My group identified 18 major problems. 18 year olds holding only A-Levels! It looks like The Lancet mustve asked primary school kids to review his paper for them!

Theres been no notable reader here since because the idea has been roundly discounted. There have been no research papers on the flat-earth hypothesis since 1438 for the same reason地lthough I have heard reports of a cruise liner falling off the edge of the earth last week.

Have you seen Wakefield recently? His partner is Elle The Body Macpherson, he wears white robes, is in much demand to speak at alternative gatherings and lives in a huge mansion in the USA! He should be at his majestys pleasure in my opinion.
 

JowGaWolf

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I had a dentist friend who said he was ambidextrous with his hands although he preferred to write with his left and kick a football with his right. He used to stress me and prove a point by getting up halfway through performing my dental procedure and switching to my other side and his other hand
Lesson learned? Don't have debates while someone has a drill in your mouth lol
 

isshinryuronin

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I understand. but the point remains as to whether an evolution would consciously or not remove a tradition of blocking to the left side which would have been the non weapon / weaker side more likely to be attacked.
I don't see why a change would be made to the opening move to get to the left side of the opponent rather than the right. The advantages of moving to the outside of a right-handed attack (inferring stepping to the left to defend) seem to me obvious. However:

Some opening moves in a form might be against a two-handed attack, in which case it may not really matter which side the defender steps to first.

Sanchin (a staple in goju and isshinryu styles) kata steps in first with the right side, so is an exception in this regard.

Naihanchi (tekki in shotokan) in most styles, steps to the right to start, but my style begins the form going to the left (perhaps reflecting founder Tatsuo Shimabuku's time with Choki Motobu, who may be considered a stylist from the Tomari area tradition of Okinawa). But since this form mirrors itself (doing it first to one side, then exactly repeating itself going to the left, it really doesn't matter since both sides are practiced equally.

Another complication is that while some form's openings are just that, kind of just "get ready" moves, while in other styles/forms, that opening is actually part of the first technique.

And who's to say a form's opening isn't against a left attack, or that the defending move would work well with either side? So, this whole question may be moot - the real answer (as in many other TMA questions) being "Who knows?"
 

punisher73

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Good story but I expect if true I would have heard it before. Which is not to say only the Block / Punch / kick aren't taught, but doubting the line specifically stating anything bout not teaching "Deeper Meaning". Would luv to see a photo of the alleged line and get it translated. Also wonder if "First Edition" refers to the one also published in English in 1965 or a rather succinct text circa 1959 or so.
I believe (could be wrong) that this is the book being referenced.


It is a copy of Gen. Choi's first book in 1959 written in Korean/Chinese. If you click on the book link it will take you there, even though the pdf has the word "password" in the title, it is not password protected.

I don't have a hard time believing the comment. It is pretty well known that applications weren't really taught at that time in Japan other than the B/P/K in Shotokan that the early Korean pioneers studied. I'll have to try and track down the quote, but one of the more famous karate masters also made a comment about not knowing what all of the moves were for.
 

Earl Weiss

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I don't have a hard time believing the comment. It is pretty well known that applications weren't really taught at that time in Japan other than the B/P/K in Shotokan that the early Korean pioneers studied. I'll have to try and track down the quote,
I look forward to seeing the quote. Now to the issue of "applications weren't really taught":. This depends on how you view applications. I view the applications that are taught as being learning tools . They help you learn how to move. They teach distance and direction. Now, how you apply those moves is only limited by practical considerations. General Choi does not specify that the examples he uses are meant to be exclusive or all encompassing and in fact stated the opposite. (Story for another day). Now, this theory of learning how to move and then using the motion for applications is not unique. In fact the first Karate Kid movie used this concept. Lear how to "Wax on, Wax off" then see how it's applied.
 

punisher73

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I look forward to seeing the quote. Now to the issue of "applications weren't really taught":. This depends on how you view applications. I view the applications that are taught as being learning tools . They help you learn how to move. They teach distance and direction. Now, how you apply those moves is only limited by practical considerations. General Choi does not specify that the examples he uses are meant to be exclusive or all encompassing and in fact stated the opposite. (Story for another day). Now, this theory of learning how to move and then using the motion for applications is not unique. In fact the first Karate Kid movie used this concept. Lear how to "Wax on, Wax off" then see how it's applied.
Still looking for the quote. But, in the meantime, here is an article about how applications didn't get passed on as karate became more popular.

 

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