white gi vs black gi

bekkilyn

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Feeling a bit mischievous, I'm tempted to find a class where they have this belt knot tradition and then wear my knot on the wrong side. No one would ever suspect I was female! Mwahahaha! (The same as no one could possibly figure out that Clark Kent was superman so long as he wore his glasses.)

Then I would slyly reknot the belt on the other side halfway through the class and everyone would suddenly be soooo confused, "Wow! I thought we had 13 males here, but now only 12. Strange. Looks like we have a new female in the class though. Wonder where she came from. I hope she doesn't make a habit out of showing up late."

Then next week, I'd strut in wearing a belt knotted on *both* sides, hehehe.

Seriously though, if I was a little kid and they had trouble figuring out my gender, I just know I'd have tons of fun with that belt trick while it lasted. *snicker*
 

Danjo

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Feeling a bit mischievous, I'm tempted to find a class where they have this belt knot tradition and then wear my knot on the wrong side. No one would ever suspect I was female! Mwahahaha! (The same as no one could possibly figure out that Clark Kent was superman so long as he wore his glasses.)

Then I would slyly reknot the belt on the other side halfway through the class and everyone would suddenly be soooo confused, "Wow! I thought we had 13 males here, but now only 12. Strange. Looks like we have a new female in the class though. Wonder where she came from. I hope she doesn't make a habit out of showing up late."

Then next week, I'd strut in wearing a belt knotted on *both* sides, hehehe.

Seriously though, if I was a little kid and they had trouble figuring out my gender, I just know I'd have tons of fun with that belt trick while it lasted. *snicker*
:lfao:
 

Doc

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The short answer is that you are right about the fact that I wasn't there, wasn't even born yet if these things happened before 1971, so yup, I'm speculating about what went on and what was said.

If that's your memory of it, I don't dispute that. I just think there was another reason that probably makes more sense. For a man who champion's logical thinking, you have a hard time accepting when someone finds disagreement with you, or when they question the sense behind what you are saying. To me, the gender-identification reason for the knot doesn't make sense. So I questioned it and I think I was fairly respectful about how I did it. But you didn't like that I did it at all.

The jab about Mr. Mitose was a cheap shot. In the same spirit, I am surpirsed you didn't manage to work some shots at the Tracys into the discussion. Oh, I forgot: you already did that in your post, #29 of this thread:



I've also noticed some inconsistency in your statements:



So were there really enough women in that era to need a special dress code to tell them apart?

Don't answer if you don't want to. I understand I've turned this point into a sore spot with you.

In the spirit of discussion and keyboard sparring.
You need to quit grasping at straws, and taking things out-of-context. I think it's fairly common knowledge there were few women, and children in classes in the early days that Will spoke about. I clearly spoke about the "commercial era" and how things were changing as the business demanded you reach out to recruit students that previously would be turned off by the rigorous training and atmosphere. Kenpo had to become user friendly to succeed in business, as they created Yellow belts for women and children, and began the "quick easy self defense" sale pitch. No more, "if you haven't bled, you haven't had a good class" perspective, that was limited to only a few hardy individuals. It became about the numbers, cause in business numbers equal profits.

For the record, any search of posts I've made about Al and his brothers will show I've more complimentary than critical. I've stated publicly on many occasions that I never could understand why as successful as they were all on their own, there was a need to take decidedly negative jabs at Ed Parker. Especially since in the early days, they were more successful than he was.

But you've also failed to rebut what I said about how it would have been difficult to identify students gender who were not your own in a strange school, or the business necessity for such in a mixed gender hands-on environment. Truth is, it's not necessary thanks. I don't argue for sake of argument, I really do have better things to do, and that's not my purpose for being here.
 

Flying Crane

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You need to quit grasping at straws, and taking things out-of-context. I think it's fairly common knowledge there were few women, and children in classes in the early days that Will spoke about. I clearly spoke about the "commercial era" and how things were changing as the business demanded you reach out to recruit students that previously would be turned off by the rigorous training and atmosphere. Kenpo had to become user friendly to succeed in business, as they created Yellow belts for women and children, and began the "quick easy self defense" sale pitch. No more, "if you haven't bled, you haven't had a good class" perspective, that was limited to only a few hardy individuals. It became about the numbers, cause in business numbers equal profits.

OK, I'll take that at face value, as far as the commercial business side of the art goes, in that a visiting instructor who is overseeing several schools and isn't able to be at every school all the time would not be expected to be familiar with the students. I'm not in the habit of attending seminars, and neither does our school tend to bring in guest instructors, so I don't make that circumstantial jump when someone says, "well, it's so the instructor knows the men from the women". I don't assume that there are visiting instructors who might not know everyone. All the schools I've been involved with have had small enough groups that the teachers and students all know each other well enough that there is no confusion there. I think ya gotta admit, without a fairly good bit of extra background info on the specific circumstances in which it might be useful, it really sounds kind of silly to hear someone say this.

I gotta be honest tho, outside of a very few special cases, I just don't see the difficulty in gender identity wrapped in a gi. But if this was Mr. Parker's stated reason for the rule, and if you've experienced some practical benefit from it on those lines, I'm not gonna argue with that. I just wonder if the germ of the idea started elsewhere, and the gender ID issue became a good enough reason for implementing it.

For the record, any search of posts I've made about Al and his brothers will show I've more complimentary than critical. I've stated publicly on many occasions that I never could understand why as successful as they were all on their own, there was a need to take decidedly negative jabs at Ed Parker. Especially since in the early days, they were more successful than he was.

yes you have, and I am willing to give credit where credit is due.

Also for the record, you may search all of my posts, and I don't think you will find a single one where I've tried to elevate any of the Tracys above anyone else. Likewise, I've never ever tried to elevate Mr. Mitose above anyone else, and neither have I ever suggested that the lineages that have distanced themselves from Mitose are missing something that makes them inferior. In fact I've repeatedly, in one particular thread, stated just the opposite of that. I've stated that those lineages obviously have done quite well without making what Mr. Mitose had to offer a part of their system. In that very same thread, I also stated several times that I myself would also have probably acted to distance myself from Mr. Mitose, had I known him at that time.

My involvement in threads about the Tracys and Mitose generally involve me telling other people bashing on them to lay the hell off. I don't start those conversations. I don't bring up the topic. It's a topic that I actually avoid bringing up if possible. But somehow other people here feel like it's OK to freely start talking trash about them and they expect everyone here to agree with what they are saying. Well, I am in the Tracy system, studying under one of the senior-most instructors under Al. So of course I'm gonna tell detractors to lay off. And our system sees value in what Mr. Mitose had to offer, regardless of what others felt about the man. So again, of course I'm gonna tell detractors to lay off. This happens to be my lineage. THere are certain things in my lineage that I'm not entirely happy about, but I can't control everybody else. One's lineage is like Family in that way. You don't get to choose your family. You are stuck with who you get, like it or not. But I've never held it out to be above others.

Do you think I enjoy those arguments? I get tired of them, and it pisses me off when I see people starting them up again. Blanket comments like "when you start believing the Tracys about anything, you are going down a slippery slope" are starting the fight all over again. Do you think you can throw that out and not get some kind of negative response?

But you've also failed to rebut what I said about how it would have been difficult to identify students gender who were not your own in a strange school, or the business necessity for such in a mixed gender hands-on environment.

I've stated that in my own experience I've never had the difficulty, and this includes when I was new in a school. And I live in a neck of the woods where gender-bending and altered sexual identity is fairly common. But that doesn't really matter. It's only my experience, and I can't expect everyone to have the same experience that I have. But of course it's important to recognize where you can and cannot touch someone in a hands-on activity.

Truth is, it's not necessary thanks. I don't argue for sake of argument, I really do have better things to do, and that's not my purpose for being here.

Agreed. I don't come here deliberately looking for fights either and I'm often surprised at how I sometimes get drawn into something that was never intended to be a fight. I guess we all have triggers that can hit us funny, and suddenly the gloves are coming off.

I apologize if I came across as offensive. It wasn't deliberate. It just took a turn down that road.

all the best.
 

Doc

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OK, I'll take that at face value, as far as the commercial business side of the art goes, in that a visiting instructor who is overseeing several schools and isn't able to be at every school all the time would not be expected to be familiar with the students. I'm not in the habit of attending seminars, and neither does our school tend to bring in guest instructors, so I don't make that circumstantial jump when someone says, "well, it's so the instructor knows the men from the women". I don't assume that there are visiting instructors who might not know everyone. All the schools I've been involved with have had small enough groups that the teachers and students all know each other well enough that there is no confusion there. I think ya gotta admit, without a fairly good bit of extra background info on the specific circumstances in which it might be useful, it really sounds kind of silly to hear someone say this.

I gotta be honest tho, outside of a very few special cases, I just don't see the difficulty in gender identity wrapped in a gi. But if this was Mr. Parker's stated reason for the rule, and if you've experienced some practical benefit from it on those lines, I'm not gonna argue with that. I just wonder if the germ of the idea started elsewhere, and the gender ID issue became a good enough reason for implementing it.



yes you have, and I am willing to give credit where credit is due.

Also for the record, you may search all of my posts, and I don't think you will find a single one where I've tried to elevate any of the Tracys above anyone else. Likewise, I've never ever tried to elevate Mr. Mitose above anyone else, and neither have I ever suggested that the lineages that have distanced themselves from Mitose are missing something that makes them inferior. In fact I've repeatedly, in one particular thread, stated just the opposite of that. I've stated that those lineages obviously have done quite well without making what Mr. Mitose had to offer a part of their system. In that very same thread, I also stated several times that I myself would also have probably acted to distance myself from Mr. Mitose, had I known him at that time.

My involvement in threads about the Tracys and Mitose generally involve me telling other people bashing on them to lay the hell off. I don't start those conversations. I don't bring up the topic. It's a topic that I actually avoid bringing up if possible. But somehow other people here feel like it's OK to freely start talking trash about them and they expect everyone here to agree with what they are saying. Well, I am in the Tracy system, studying under one of the senior-most instructors under Al. So of course I'm gonna tell detractors to lay off. And our system sees value in what Mr. Mitose had to offer, regardless of what others felt about the man. So again, of course I'm gonna tell detractors to lay off. This happens to be my lineage. THere are certain things in my lineage that I'm not entirely happy about, but I can't control everybody else. One's lineage is like Family in that way. You don't get to choose your family. You are stuck with who you get, like it or not. But I've never held it out to be above others.

Do you think I enjoy those arguments? I get tired of them, and it pisses me off when I see people starting them up again. Blanket comments like "when you start believing the Tracys about anything, you are going down a slippery slope" are starting the fight all over again. Do you think you can throw that out and not get some kind of negative response?



I've stated that in my own experience I've never had the difficulty, and this includes when I was new in a school. And I live in a neck of the woods where gender-bending and altered sexual identity is fairly common. But that doesn't really matter. It's only my experience, and I can't expect everyone to have the same experience that I have. But of course it's important to recognize where you can and cannot touch someone in a hands-on activity.



Agreed. I don't come here deliberately looking for fights either and I'm often surprised at how I sometimes get drawn into something that was never intended to be a fight. I guess we all have triggers that can hit us funny, and suddenly the gloves are coming off.

I apologize if I came across as offensive. It wasn't deliberate. It just took a turn down that road.

all the best.

See you screwed up again. There you go being nice and making sense and telling it like it is. Now neither of us has an argument. Thanks Old Internet Bud.
 

Flying Crane

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See you screwed up again. There you go being nice and making sense and telling it like it is. Now neither of us has an argument. Thanks Old Internet Bud.

No worries. You and I push each other's buttons sometimes. I don't believe that either of us do it deliberately. It just comes with the territory in some ways.

For my part, I'll try to consider my comments more carefully before posting, and stay out of fights that don't need to happen.

thanks.
 

Xinglu

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Soooooooooo.... Back to topic, I don't think it matters what color your Gi is so long as your training and kenpo is good. :mst:
 

Kenpo17

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It truly doesn't matter to me what color Gi a student is wearing. I switch of all the time, black, white, pullovers, tie gi's, red gi's, sleevless gi's. In American Kenpo at least it doesn't matter what color the student wears, it is not for instance you can't wear a white gi until you are a green belt, nothing like that.
 

Grasshopper22

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I've always worn a white gi as a mark of respect as white connotes purity, innocence and freshness whereas black connotes dirt and evil (anyone who says that's racist is pathetic, it's nothing to do with skin colour and it's only what I've always been told by numerous Senseis, so even if you do think it's racist, don't shoot the messenger!). We are, however, allowed to wear a black gi when we reach purple belt as black also connotes power (see, not racist, both black and white have their advantages and disadvantages), hence the black belt being the highest rank (besides Dans of course, but they're still black anyway).
Although I've personally always worn a white gi, if it were up to me, I'd accept both black and white as, although Ju Jitsu is about discipline and respect, I don't think it makes to much of a difference to be honest.
Overall though, I think I'd have to say white.
 

Danjo

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I've always worn a white gi as a mark of respect as white connotes purity, innocence and freshness whereas black connotes dirt and evil (anyone who says that's racist is pathetic, it's nothing to do with skin colour and it's only what I've always been told by numerous Senseis, so even if you do think it's racist, don't shoot the messenger!). We are, however, allowed to wear a black gi when we reach purple belt as black also connotes power (see, not racist, both black and white have their advantages and disadvantages), hence the black belt being the highest rank (besides Dans of course, but they're still black anyway).
Although I've personally always worn a white gi, if it were up to me, I'd accept both black and white as, although Ju Jitsu is about discipline and respect, I don't think it makes to much of a difference to be honest.
Overall though, I think I'd have to say white.

I like wearing black cuz I'm dirty and evil.
 

Blindside

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I've always worn a white gi as a mark of respect as white connotes purity, innocence and freshness whereas black connotes dirt and evil (anyone who says that's racist is pathetic, it's nothing to do with skin colour and it's only what I've always been told by numerous Senseis, so even if you do think it's racist, don't shoot the messenger!).

The white gi was used because fabric dye was expensive, and all colored gis fade so white (or unbleached) was the original chosen color. I don't think there was massive symbolism about it, it probably chosen with practicality in mind. Also if you look at some of the other connotatioins of white in Japanese culture they include death and color worn during mourning.
 

shihansmurf

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Thread Necro!

My school wears black as it hides bloodstains better. I tend to wear a red gi top as Mrs. Smurf thinks I look good in red.

Know who else wears red? Papa Smurf.

A few more promotions and I get the hat and pants.

Mark
 

Dan Hobson

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I'm not an instructor so I can't comment on that part of the question but everyone at the club I go to wears a black gi (we're not allowed to wear white gis).
 

LawDog

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Martial Arts = Military Way. Wear the uniforn of your unit or join the unit that fits your personel fashion statement.
 

Gentle Fist

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In Kenpo I wear black, in Judo/BJJ I go between Blue and White. Really just depends on school dress code.... Anyone seen the pink gi the women judoka/bjjers are sporting now? I know Judo Gene starting wearing one decades ago, looks like it finally caught on!
 

ziason

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My last school started everyone in white, and once you advanced to a certain point, you earned the black gi. I think anything that helps motivate a students is a good idea, and I personally prefer black, it's harder to make a black look dirty and as. It ages it just looks more seasoned.
 

Yondanchris

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I have my students begin wearing a white gi. They become eligible to wear the black gi at Purple belt. Mixing and matching only happens at black belt.

I have two reasons for assigning white gis to new students:

1) White gis are acceptable in most MA schools. If a new student quits for whatever reason, they have a uniform they can probably use elsewhere. Black gis, however, are not allowed everywhere.
2) The black gi becomes a rite of passage, a mark of distinction as one passes from the beginner to an intermediate stage.

If I had to add a third reason, I would say this:

3) A white belt on a black gi looks silly.

Joel

Ditto!
 

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