Which training philosophy do you adhere to? “All out” or “Marathon”?

[Zombocalypse]

Which training philosophy do you adhere to? “All out” or “Marathon”?



I wanted to ask this question in a bodybuilding forum, but the forum I frequented had a bunch of bad apples in it. I didn’t want them to ruin a perfectly good topic…

So instead, I’ll ask this question to martial artists instead of bodybuilders…

Let me start by quoting Charles Poliquin with regards to “training frequency”. Read below.

However, in the practice of strength training in the sporting world, especially with elite athletes, there are conflicting schools of thought on training frequency. For example, Rick Weil, who did in excess of triple his bodyweight in the bench press recommends one session per week per muscle group. While at the other end of the spectrum, 9 to 12 weekly sessions are common on European weightlifting teams. In fact, some of these teams would train the hip and knee extensors in short sessions of up to 4 to 5 times a day!

Obviously, in the world of strength sports (bodybuilding, powerlifting, weightlifting,), there are varying methods and philosophies to the way each athlete conducts his training. I, for example, have had great success with high-frequency lifting. Others think it’s a crazy idea, but it worked for me. Then you have guys like Charles Poliquin who adhere to the “less is more” philosophy of doing the least amount of work for the best results.

One of the people in the “less is more” category is the legendary Doug Hepburn, who was once dubbed as “The Grandfather of Modern Powerlifting”. In his autobiography, Strongman: The Doug Hepburn Story, he outlined in great detail his weight training system. In it, he gives you the option to choose how often you train, as low as twice a week to as high as only six times a week. Six-times-a-week weightlifting is very common with your average gym rat. It’s nothing special and nothing extreme. But here is where it gets even more nonextreme…

You are to exercise a particular muscle group no more than three times a week.

Again, that is common with a lot of gym rats, but it’s absolutely laughable by real weightlifting standards. You take that to John Broz’s (a great weightlifting coach) gym and he’ll call you a pussy.

And yet, Doug became one of the strongest steroid-free weightlifters in history, rivaling the likes of Paul Anderson and Bill Kazmaier.

Here is a result of “extreme” training. See below.

Here is a result of “minimalist” training. See below.

Ed Coan (right above) did a classic linear periodization program that had as little as once a week squatting, and got great results. Pat Mendes (the first video above) did extreme frequencies.

So obviously, either approach works. As far as which is better? That’s a tough call. There are so many variables to talk about and so many elements to consider…

As a martial artist, which one are you in your training?

I once read about how Kimura, a judo legend, trained all day, every day to become as good as he was. And yet, we have more conservative and less aggressive trainees who become just as good with their art.

Obviously, lifting weights and martial arts are not super similar with their training approaches, but please humor me and tell me as a martial artist, which philosophy do you adhere to and why?

Thanks.

 

[DanT]

Athletes at the professional level tend to train 6 days a week, 5-6 h a day. I train at this level.

My training usually consists of:
-1h Weight Lifting
-1h Stretching + Calisthenics
-1h Drills in the air
-1h Heavy Bag
-1h partner drills / Sparring
-1h forms

Occasionally I change it up a bit for fun. Training this intense requires me to sleep for around 9-10 hours a night.

Some people do martial arts as a hobby, others as a sport, and others as a way of life.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you can lift X lb with N reps, you should lift X - 10 lb with 1.5N or even 2N reps. Whatever that you train today or not is not important. What important is whether you will still do the same training when you are 70 years old. Always remember "no fun, no gain". You play tennis not because you force yourself to do it but you enjoy of doing it. Always reserve 30% of your energy for unexpected. The worse case that can happen to you is right after your work out, you leave your gym, a guy jumps on you and beats you up because you have no energy left to defense yourself.

 

[Kenposcholar]

My philosophy is sustainability (i.e. training in a way that you won't burn out or have schedule conflictions). This means that I value consistency more than intensity during my training. Although intensity is absolutely a good thing to have, there is an objectively measurable limit that a person should have per percent of time training.

[1] An article published in the International Journal of Sports Physiology and Performance by Dr. Steven Seiler found that predominance of low/medium-duration intensity (80% low/medium at 2 mM blood lactate & 20% high intensity such as interval training at approx. 90% VO2max.), long-duration training, in combination with fewer, highly intensive bouts tends to be complementary in terms of optimizing technical mastery at an “acceptable level of stress”. This means that practitioners will be able more apt to continue training for a long time rather than get stressed about getting on the mat and quitting.

Research by Dr. Gustafsson, published author in the European Journal of Sport Science, also concluded that practitioners with what they deemed obsessively passionate and high-intensity also tended to “burn-out” (mental collapse by overwork or stress) faster than those who were deemed harmoniously passionate. [2] Obsessively passionate practitioners also scored higher on perceived stress and negative effect the activity. This supports the common assumption that those who train obsessively and intensely have a much greater risk of developing burnout and quitting sooner than the others.

It's my strong belief that it is in the practitioner's best interest to remain fit and maintain/grow self-defense skills throughout their life than be extremely good for a few years and quit. The benefits to physical health, mental health, and safety are too great to squander on such a short amount of time. On the other hand, if that individual knows that they will be in combat (e.g. military), then I absolutely support an intense training regimen. Surviving to spend the rest of your life alive should be your highest priority at that point.


[1] Seiler, S. (2010). What is Best Practice for Training Intensity and Duration Distribution in Endurance Athletes? International Journal of Sports Physiology and Performance, 5(3), 276-291. doi:10.1123/ijspp.5.3.276
[2] Gustafsson, Henrik, et al. “Are Athletes Burning out with Passion?” European Journal of Sport Science, vol. 11, no. 6, 2011, pp. 387–395., doi:10.1080/17461391.2010.536573.

 

[jobo]

Which training philosophy do you adhere to? “All out” or “Marathon”?



I wanted to ask this question in a bodybuilding forum, but the forum I frequented had a bunch of bad apples in it. I didn’t want them to ruin a perfectly good topic…

So instead, I’ll ask this question to martial artists instead of bodybuilders…

Let me start by quoting Charles Poliquin with regards to “training frequency”. Read below.

However, in the practice of strength training in the sporting world, especially with elite athletes, there are conflicting schools of thought on training frequency. For example, Rick Weil, who did in excess of triple his bodyweight in the bench press recommends one session per week per muscle group. While at the other end of the spectrum, 9 to 12 weekly sessions are common on European weightlifting teams. In fact, some of these teams would train the hip and knee extensors in short sessions of up to 4 to 5 times a day!

Obviously, in the world of strength sports (bodybuilding, powerlifting, weightlifting,), there are varying methods and philosophies to the way each athlete conducts his training. I, for example, have had great success with high-frequency lifting. Others think it’s a crazy idea, but it worked for me. Then you have guys like Charles Poliquin who adhere to the “less is more” philosophy of doing the least amount of work for the best results.

One of the people in the “less is more” category is the legendary Doug Hepburn, who was once dubbed as “The Grandfather of Modern Powerlifting”. In his autobiography, Strongman: The Doug Hepburn Story, he outlined in great detail his weight training system. In it, he gives you the option to choose how often you train, as low as twice a week to as high as only six times a week. Six-times-a-week weightlifting is very common with your average gym rat. It’s nothing special and nothing extreme. But here is where it gets even more nonextreme…

You are to exercise a particular muscle group no more than three times a week.

Again, that is common with a lot of gym rats, but it’s absolutely laughable by real weightlifting standards. You take that to John Broz’s (a great weightlifting coach) gym and he’ll call you a pussy.

And yet, Doug became one of the strongest steroid-free weightlifters in history, rivaling the likes of Paul Anderson and Bill Kazmaier.

Here is a result of “extreme” training. See below.

Here is a result of “minimalist” training. See below.

Ed Coan (right above) did a classic linear periodization program that had as little as once a week squatting, and got great results. Pat Mendes (the first video above) did extreme frequencies.

So obviously, either approach works. As far as which is better? That’s a tough call. There are so many variables to talk about and so many elements to consider…

As a martial artist, which one are you in your training?

I once read about how Kimura, a judo legend, trained all day, every day to become as good as he was. And yet, we have more conservative and less aggressive trainees who become just as good with their art.

Obviously, lifting weights and martial arts are not super similar with their training approaches, but please humor me and tell me as a martial artist, which philosophy do you adhere to and why?

Thanks.

philosophy? We'll the most important philosophy is one of balance, people get hung up on what is optimum and the question should be how do you have q balanced life with time for your friend family, work and other hobbies AND still make progress with your fitness. The number of people in a position to train, sleep and eat Chicken to the exclusion of everything else is somewhat limited.

Of course you can cheat and take peds and that's what a lot of body builder/ weight lifter do. Why do dedicate 5 years of effort to get as big/ strong fast as you can, when you can do it in 6 months on drugs

change is the best strategy, if you are making progress doing what you are doing , what ever that is, then stick with it, when your not, change it to something else.

know your hung up on lifting weights, and weights are good, but getting obsessed with being stronger means you may well neglect other areas that are just as important to your all round condition, so balance in that as well

 

[Danny T]

Long term. Are you in it for right now and a certain goal over a certain time period. Or maybe one's lifespan.
For instance a fighter preparing for a fight will spend a period of time 8-12 weeks of fight camp with an all out type of regime then final week 5-7 days rest and light workouts. Then usually take a couple of weeks off and as they age even a couple of months to rest and recover completely. At person like myself been training most of my life starting in 1966 am still training (far harder and more than the average person) with only short periods of all out training. Overall it has been a marathon.

 

[skribs]

Martial Arts and weightlifting are completely different animals as far as training is concerned. With weightlifting, the goal is to damage the muscles enough they can be easily repaired by the body, and as the body repairs them, it makes them stronger to handle the next set. This is why people have you alternate muscle groups or have off days in training - because you need enough time for your muscles to heal. If you do too much and strain or tear the muscle beyond what is easy to repair, it can take longer to achieve results. (This is just a very, very, amateur understanding, but you get the point).

This applies to lots of physical conditioning. Cardio, you're building the strength in your heart and lungs, and don't want to overdo it. With building callouses (whether you're talking about a guitarist building callouses on his fingers or a Muay Thai fighter kicking boards to condition his shins), you start out gradual and build your way up.

With Martial Arts (outside of conditioning training), you are largely building neural pathways for your mind and body to work better together. In this case, repetition is what reinforces your training. It takes repetition to build the muscle memory. The more you repeat the same move, the easier it will be. So as long as you're not over-taxing your muscles or your cardio, you're not burning yourself out psychologically, and you're not failing to meet other commitments, I think the more you practice, the better.

 

[Zombocalypse]

My philosophy is sustainability (i.e. training in a way that you won't burn out or have schedule conflictions). This means that I value consistency more than intensity during my training. Although intensity is absolutely a good thing to have, there is an objectively measurable limit that a person should have per percent of time training.

[1] An article published in the International Journal of Sports Physiology and Performance by Dr. Steven Seiler found that predominance of low/medium-duration intensity (80% low/medium at 2 mM blood lactate & 20% high intensity such as interval training at approx. 90% VO2max.), long-duration training, in combination with fewer, highly intensive bouts tends to be complementary in terms of optimizing technical mastery at an “acceptable level of stress”. This means that practitioners will be able more apt to continue training for a long time rather than get stressed about getting on the mat and quitting.

Research by Dr. Gustafsson, published author in the European Journal of Sport Science, also concluded that practitioners with what they deemed obsessively passionate and high-intensity also tended to “burn-out” (mental collapse by overwork or stress) faster than those who were deemed harmoniously passionate. [2] Obsessively passionate practitioners also scored higher on perceived stress and negative effect the activity. This supports the common assumption that those who train obsessively and intensely have a much greater risk of developing burnout and quitting sooner than the others.

It's my strong belief that it is in the practitioner's best interest to remain fit and maintain/grow self-defense skills throughout their life than be extremely good for a few years and quit. The benefits to physical health, mental health, and safety are too great to squander on such a short amount of time. On the other hand, if that individual knows that they will be in combat (e.g. military), then I absolutely support an intense training regimen. Surviving to spend the rest of your life alive should be your highest priority at that point.


[1] Seiler, S. (2010). What is Best Practice for Training Intensity and Duration Distribution in Endurance Athletes? International Journal of Sports Physiology and Performance, 5(3), 276-291. doi:10.1123/ijspp.5.3.276
[2] Gustafsson, Henrik, et al. “Are Athletes Burning out with Passion?” European Journal of Sport Science, vol. 11, no. 6, 2011, pp. 387–395., doi:10.1080/17461391.2010.536573.

Good stuff. Thanks.

I know what it's like to experience burnout. Believe me. lol. It wreaks havoc not just on your body, but also your mental health.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Long term. Are you in it for right now and a certain goal over a certain time period. Or maybe one's lifespan.
For instance a fighter preparing for a fight will spend a period of time 8-12 weeks of fight camp with an all out type of regime then final week 5-7 days rest and light workouts. Then usually take a couple of weeks off and as they age even a couple of months to rest and recover completely. At person like myself been training most of my life starting in 1966 am still training (far harder and more than the average person) with only short periods of all out training. Overall it has been a marathon.

Do you happen to be familiar with "periodization"? Your post suggests to me that periodization was exactly what you were doing.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Martial Arts and weightlifting are completely different animals as far as training is concerned. With weightlifting, the goal is to damage the muscles enough they can be easily repaired by the body, and as the body repairs them, it makes them stronger to handle the next set. This is why people have you alternate muscle groups or have off days in training - because you need enough time for your muscles to heal. If you do too much and strain or tear the muscle beyond what is easy to repair, it can take longer to achieve results. (This is just a very, very, amateur understanding, but you get the point).

This applies to lots of physical conditioning. Cardio, you're building the strength in your heart and lungs, and don't want to overdo it. With building callouses (whether you're talking about a guitarist building callouses on his fingers or a Muay Thai fighter kicking boards to condition his shins), you start out gradual and build your way up.

With Martial Arts (outside of conditioning training), you are largely building neural pathways for your mind and body to work better together. In this case, repetition is what reinforces your training. It takes repetition to build the muscle memory. The more you repeat the same move, the easier it will be. So as long as you're not over-taxing your muscles or your cardio, you're not burning yourself out psychologically, and you're not failing to meet other commitments, I think the more you practice, the better.

Let me make a correction here...

You said, With weightlifting, the goal is to damage the muscles enough they can be easily repaired by the body, and as the body repairs them, it makes them stronger to handle the next set. This is true to a very limited extent. If you were talking about BODYBUILDING, then you would be a hundred percent right. But the thing is, bodybuilding is not synonymous to strength training.

Most elite European weightlifters employ the kind of training regimen that teaches their body to recruit as many motor units as it can in a single effort or lift. Strength is, believe it or not, a skill. It is more than just muscle power, it's also mental power. It is a motor ability that involves your central nervous system to a huge extent.

 

[Danny T]

Do you happen to be familiar with "periodization"? Your post suggests to me that periodization was exactly what you were doing.

Periodization is great for peak performance for a certain period of competition at a particular point during the year. Usually there are several competitions to 'build up' for the most important competition of year and those are scheduled well in advance. The athlete and team knows when the competitions are scheduled. Problem with competition fighting is other than at the very highest level, the fighter and fight team doesn't know when the next fight will be. If lucky you get 6 maybe 8 weeks to get ready, other times it's more like 3-4 weeks or much less. I just had 2 fighters get fights with 8 days notices. Hard to work periodization type training in those instances.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Periodization is great for peak performance for a certain period of competition at a particular point during the year. Usually there are several competitions to 'build up' for the most important competition of year and those are scheduled well in advance. The athlete and team knows when the competitions are scheduled. Problem with competition fighting is other than at the very highest level, the fighter and fight team doesn't know when the next fight will be. If lucky you get 6 maybe 8 weeks to get ready, other times it's more like 3-4 weeks or much less. I just had 2 fighters get fights with 8 days notices. Hard to work periodization type training in those instances.

Thanks for the information.

Personally, I used to obsess about periodization. Not anymore. I read that periodization is basically just a fancy word for "variety".

 

[Danny T]

Thanks for the information.

Personally, I used to obsess about periodization. Not anymore. I read that periodization is basically just a fancy word for "variety".

There is variety but periodization is more than just varying the training. It a systematic process to prepare for multiple competitions where finishing within the top levels to be seeded in the best slots and to be at peak level for the final and most important competition. Think Olympic competitions. The athletic must compete in several competitions to even get on the Olympic team then must compete several times within the Olympics with the final competition being the most important.

 

[Zombocalypse]

I guess it's my turn to share...

The way I see it, you'll get exactly what you invest on. I'm on the extreme side. I adhere to the Bulgarian-style of training with my weightlifting. And I believe it will be the same with martial arts. The more I train (within reason), the better.

 

[Danny T]

The more I train (within reason), the better.

LOL...what does "within reason" mean?

 

[DanT]

Balance is the most important. Spend time with family. Don't waste time on pointless things, and you will maximize your training time. Most people:

-Sleep 8 H
-Work 8 H
-Commute for 2 H
-6 H Free

And on the weekends:
-Sleep 8 H
-Clean 3 H
-13 H free

(6x5) + (13x2) = 56 H a week to train, spend with family, workout, etc.

People spend too much time in front of the TV, on their phones, or in the shower, and not enough time doing substantial or constructive things.

Most people can find 2H a day to train and workout if they eliminate and simplify their schedule.

 

[Headhunter]

Depends on the goal. If you're doing a white collar boxing match and have no intentions to carry on training after that fight then all out is fine. But if you want martial arts to be something you do for the rest of your life then you can't go all out all the time you just can't you'll get injured and burn yourself out

 

[Zombocalypse]

LOL...what does "within reason" mean?

With martial arts training, I don't know. But with weightlifting, which is something I'm familiar with, it will be more training sessions than there are days in a week. Elite weightlifters from the eastern bloc countries in Europe have like 9 training sessions a week. This extreme training frequency was adopted by John Broz of USA, a man who produced Pat Mendes.

 

[Headhunter]

With martial arts training, I don't know. But with weightlifting, which is something I'm familiar with, it will be more training sessions than there are days in a week. Elite weightlifters from the eastern bloc countries in Europe have like 9 training sessions a week. This extreme training frequency was adopted by John Broz of USA, a man who produced Pat Mendes.

Well this is a martial arts forum not a weight lifting forum.

 

[Danny T]

With martial arts training, I don't know. But with weightlifting, which is something I'm familiar with, it will be more training sessions than there are days in a week.

This extreme training frequency was adopted by John Broz of USA, a man who produced Pat Mendes.

Uhh that and the human growth hormones that got Mendes and others as well, banned.

What about off season recovery?