When will learning self-defence be simple?

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WOW..Lots of GREAT posts here..I've learned countless techniques in the last 30 years, and there are maybe 6 that I used constantly.But I nned that exposure to find those favorites.Yes, ya can get a lot of SD techniques at the white belt level in many disciplines, but will it be effective against a drugged up or drunk aggressor or too someone with a higher threshold of pain...

I dislike the whole Verbal Judo or Tounge-Fu..I have seen too many altercations where the victim spent too much time attempting to defuse a situation and wasn't watching the other persons body language..If they want your watch, wallet or money, GIVE IT TO THEM...

As the a few of the others said..Buy a gun, get your CCW permit and THEN keep a very experienced and very excpensive crimminal trial lawyer on retainer..Cause the first time you use it the POS will take you to court and sue you..

Hello, Just wondering how many (Verbal Judo/correct verbal words) that did work and both sides walk away without the violence!

The key in martial arts is Awareness and Avoidance and NO violence...this is where the true Masters learn there best skills.

Sure we must always prepare for the worst!

I am surprise you do not see the use of teaching/ learning proper verbal skills for defusion ... you dislike verbal skills for preventions......

When your partner or kids or anyone gets angry at you? ....you dislike verbal useage? ....or for any confrontations?

NO wonder our countries and wars never will end? ....Aloha

PS: I know? i need verbal training too! ...still learning
 

GBlues

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Hello, Just wondering how many (Verbal Judo/correct verbal words) that did work and both sides walk away without the violence!

The key in martial arts is Awareness and Avoidance and NO violence...this is where the true Masters learn there best skills.

Sure we must always prepare for the worst!

I am surprise you do not see the use of teaching/ learning proper verbal skills for defusion ... you dislike verbal skills for preventions......

When your partner or kids or anyone gets angry at you? ....you dislike verbal useage? ....or for any confrontations?

NO wonder our countries and wars never will end? ....Aloha

PS: I know? i need verbal training too! ...still learning

I think the point that Drac is getting at is, that yeah it's great to be able to defuse a situation. However, there comes a point when you need to just shut the hell up and get it on. Because while your flapping your gums he's stabbing the **** out of you. LIke Tuko from, "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" said, "If your going to shoot, shoot, don't talk." Said after he killed the guy that had spent way to much time flapping his gums. Verbal defusion is nice, and I've used it, to defuse situations, as have I'm sure many of the martial artists on this forum, but there is a time to talk and time not too. you have to be aware and no when that time is. If a guy pulls a knife on you, there shouldn't be any talking. Because there shouldn't be any doubt in your mind what that guy wants. You know what that is??? To just ask you out on a date friday night, but he gets nervous and having a knife in his hands makes him feel better. WRONGO!!!!! He wants to stab you with it!!! Well, he might want your money, but if you don't have the amount that he thinks you should have, he still may stab you with it!!! If a guy has a knife pulled on you, it shouldn't prompt you to talk, it should piss you off. Really!

The same applies in some non-added weapons situations. TIme and place, time and place. Sometimes defusion is the way to go, and sometimes, it's just destroy, ( if you can you know), it's a judgement call we all have to make. We ALL get scared, we all get the knee shakes. Any man that says differently is either a liar, or ain't never been in an altercation. You know, talking makes us feel better about the situation, because we are scared. You have to control yourself, and at least pretend like your not scared. The time spent talking could better be spent looking for other alternatives, running away, or deciding what strategy your going to use if you can't run. Cause the reality is, unless he's a total psychopath he's probably just as scared as you are.
 

MJS

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Yeah MJS I think the before and afters are covered in a lot of schools. One big thing about training I think is sound. When your practicing your partner should be trying to simulate to the best of his ability the reaction, your gonna get. So, if your practicing an eye gouge, and one that is designed to remove the eye from it's socket. At some point your partner should be screaming at the top of his lungs like you are really doing it. That will desensitize you to some of that, "Hey, pal you alright?". It should be that way with every technique. I know that before I lost my job, I was attending to-shindo, and sometimes I'd get pretty loud as an attacker in the training. You know, "I'll kill you!!!!" and wrap my hands around there neck. I try to be as realistic as possible. Try to give that feel of violence to my partner. The problem is if your not used to that, it's a very new experience to someone that has never been in a fight, or violent situation. I'd try to make the proper types of noises that I would think you would make having those techniques done to me if it was in real life. The more sensory out put that you can give, and get in training, it's gonna make you a whole lot better. The reactions are your gauge for success, if your not getting that reaction in a real situation, you didn't do it right, or you didn't hit, so you've got to do it again, but do it right. you know what I mean?

As far as some of the other posters and the de-escalation, yeah that is an important part of training. There is another side to that coin though also, sometimes it's not better to get into your hands up read position and try to create some space and talk this guy down. Sometimes it's not going to work. So you have to be the first one to move. Action is faster than reaction, once you put your mindset into the self-defense mode, your reactionary. So that de-escalation, could actually in some situations put you in a very bad spot. You have to listen to that gut instinct, or for women your womans intuition. Because there are times when it's better to just get it on. I think some schools and instructors make to big of a deal about de-escalation. That to much emphasis on it, and not enough on, "Look if you know in your heart, this guy just isn't going to let you walk away, then you have to do what you feel is necassary and it may mean turning the tables and becoming the aggressor in some situations. It may mean that you don't wait for him to throw the first punch, you may have to make sure that you go home in one piece." Ok, those gut feelings are more accurate than some people want to give it credit for. I listen to my gut feeling almost every single time. I don't question it. I've been out with my girlfriend at the highschool parking lot just hanging out in my truck, and got that gut feeling. I started the truck, and split just as fast as I could. Probably nothing would have happened, but I don't care. I wasn't there to find out if something was going to either. She got the same feeling right after I told her, "Were LEAVING!" So, you know, that has to be addressed also.

Another thing is the mindset, like what BlackLion is wanting to talk about. I think the only way to describe is, if you stepped outside your door and saw a young kid being mauled by a big dog. You wouldn't even think twice about blowing that dogs head clean off with a gun, if that's what you needed to do to save that kids life. WHy? Because we have been conditioned to believe that human life is worth more than an animals. Now, take it one step further, it's your dog, that is mauling that young kid. I know for myself, it's the same story, dead dog. I can't let that dog hurt that kid. Now, your typical a-social person, is coming out of there house and see there dog, mauling this kid, he might shoot the dog, but it's going to bother him more, that he killed his dog, than if that kid had died. He may not even shoot the damned dog. So he doesn't value human life. He actually thinks that your life is worth less than a dogs. Now, the mauling dog, is the attacker, and your the kid. You really give a rats patooti if you kill that rabid dog? Probably not. You aren't even gonna lose sleep over it. ANd that is the mindset of these people in the correctional facilities, that kill so easily. They don't care about your life, it's worth nothing. So, when confronted by one of these individuals you need to be just as callous in your attack on that person. See them as a dog, and you won't want to ask, "Hey pal you alright?" Well, I hope this all came out the way that I intended it too. LOL!

Good points. As far as whether or not the things I and BL mentioned in our posts....I think its safe to say that its taught in some schools, but I'd be willing to bet there are more that dont teach it, than ones that do. Some people are so set in their ways, that any sort of scenario training or training outside of their box, is frowned upon.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Hello, Just wondering how many (Verbal Judo/correct verbal words) that did work and both sides walk away without the violence!

The key in martial arts is Awareness and Avoidance and NO violence...this is where the true Masters learn there best skills.

Sure we must always prepare for the worst!

I am surprise you do not see the use of teaching/ learning proper verbal skills for defusion ... you dislike verbal skills for preventions......

When your partner or kids or anyone gets angry at you? ....you dislike verbal useage? ....or for any confrontations?

NO wonder our countries and wars never will end? ....Aloha

PS: I know? i need verbal training too! ...still learning
While I agree with your post to an extent, but I think that you are misreading Drac's post.

There are people intent on harming others. Verbal skills are useless against them. They intend to hurt, harm, or even kill their intended victims.

No amount of verbal skills would have been effective against Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gasey, or Osama Bin Laden.

As for war, you may recall that verbal skills and giving up the wallet were used with Hitler. But Hitler was intent on world domination in some fashion, and was likely insane.

Verbal skills are excellent for dealing with heated tempers due to a traffic altercation or out of hand party guests. They are good when dealing with someone who is having second thoughts about their course of action. They are best with people who have a logical reason for their anger and who can be reasoned with.

When dealing with mentally ill, sociapaths or other individuals intent upon harming you, they are useless.

Also, given that in a good number cases, a robber will kill the victim after the victim gives up the goods, do you really want to take that chance?

Perhaps you do. I would prefer not to. Violent people only understand the language of violence. If you wish to address them in a language of peace, better hope they have turned on their universal translator.

Daniel
 
OP
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Hello, OK....this one agrees there will be people and times when "Verbal Judo" maynot work....no such thing as it works 100% of the time.

The point is? ....Verbal Judo is use everyday....preventions and to de-escalted situtions from getting worst....and many situtions today could have be prevented with proper "Verbal" training.

The book "Gift of Fear" ...mentions approx 26,000 people die each year because of their "EGO"'s and NO proper training in Verbal preventions. ...stupid fights and arguments!

True story: Two very old couples standing in line for a Concert...one bumps accidentally...one "verbal abuse" the other...one pushes the other one down who hit's his and head on the wall while falling and dies....
One gets buried...other goes to jail....Imagine what lives could be save with proper "verbal training?"

Hilter was great with his "Verbal" words....A bad person...who knew the power of words.....

What works better the "Verbal langauge or the fists"....?

If one method do not work? ...sometimes reactions will!

Aloha,
 

BLACK LION

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The only place socializing or de-escalation or diffusion is prevelant is in "avoiodable violence". This is a situation that starts socially and could end up violent like a wrong look or a grab of the girlfriends booty or a lost parking spot etc... you cannot confuse a social situation with an asocial one and vice versa... you cannot approach an asocial situation with social reasoning or remedy or you will end up a statistic of a violent crime... on the other hand you shouldnt approach a social situation with asocial reason and remedy or you will face moral-legal reprocussions....

A man with a gun to your face or a knife to your childs throat thats demanding money is ony using a social feint in order to "butter" you up before they attack...they just may not want to dig in your pockets after they put 2 in your head...or they get off on seeing the fear or hearing the pleading and crying... That is not a social situation and should not be regarded or treated as such. A man approaching you at full speed with a crowbar after you cut him off and decided to get out and tongue wrestle is most liekly not interested in what you have to say... at that point you would be pleading your case instead of diffusing anything.... you should have never pulled over and exited the vehicle...


There is plenty of room for training "awareness" and "de-escalation"... there is plenty of time to massage the social aspect... in a social setting a fight could last minutes if not hours...
I an asocial situation the combat will only last seconds... there is no time for social baggage here...
I have found that training in an asocial environment makes dealing with social situations seem like childs play... you can literally laugh most things off and continue your day but at the same time the would be predators understand exactly whats going on when they get that blank detached look and a slight downward nod...

If protection and preservation is the goal of training then it should be focused around an asocial environment where using ultimate force is king.
you learn to switch it on and switch it off at will. Save the social training and tactics for the bulk of your life that you spend in a social environment... that time spent trainng to protect and preserve needs to be immersed in an asocial ocean that is void of any social means or measures....
there is no reasoning with the monster...you must become the monster in order to destroy it...

far too often people refer to bringing a tongue to a knife or gunfight... but this is impractical and not based on actuality
 

BLACK LION

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Hello, OK....this one agrees there will be people and times when "Verbal Judo" maynot work....no such thing as it works 100% of the time.

The point is? ....Verbal Judo is use everyday....preventions and to de-escalted situtions from getting worst....and many situtions today could have be prevented with proper "Verbal" training. Most if not all of our life is spent socializing or in a social setting and in this time awareness and de-escalation should be learned or absorbed as a bi-product of various "fights" or "arguments" one might find themselves in from birth to adolesence... you cannot train a persons integrity or thier ability to show repsect and courtesy...
How can you train awareness if once has never been caught off guard or ambushed or snuck up on or followed etc...

The book "Gift of Fear" ...mentions approx 26,000 people die each year because of their "EGO"'s and NO proper training in Verbal preventions. ...stupid fights and arguments! Avoidable violence is what this is and its a tool that must be trained in a social setting only which is the bulk of our time spent daily anyway.

True story: Two very old couples standing in line for a Concert...one bumps accidentally...one "verbal abuse" the other...one pushes the other one down who hit's his and head on the wall while falling and dies....
One gets buried...other goes to jail....Imagine what lives could be save with proper "verbal training?" This is clearly a matter of courtesy and integrity and clearly social...training for something like that has no place in a protection/preservation environment... you cant bring moral-social-legal luggage into an asocial based environment... you are essentiall attempting to combat an oil fire with hot water.

Hilter was great with his "Verbal" words....A bad person...who knew the power of words.....Hitler was a sociopath in a uniform. He didnt just dictate with words... he destroyed and annihilated with physical force

What works better the "Verbal langauge or the fists"....? Socializing is great in a social setting... but you cannot bargain with violence... you cannot massage terror or calamity

If one method do not work? ...sometimes reactions will! Social measures work for social situations.... Asocial measures work for asocial situations... its that simple... neither compliment or apply to one another...

Aloha,

Turning the other cheek is a great tactic in a social setting and I am an advocate of it... its shows superior integrity and intellect as well as character.

I an asocal setting the only turning of the cheek that will be done is to break the threats necks in two...

train to socialize on your social time... train to brutalize on your asocial time... simple
 
OP
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Hello, One thing for sure? ....Man kind has major behavior problems.

Not all can be solve with "words" , just that prevention is better than cure.

Once a fight starts? ....someone is going to get hurt or killed!

The behavior of fight or flee? ...is ingrain in us.....something that is pass down generatons to generatons....

Can we ever solve the bad behavior problems in man kind?

or must we learn to protect ourselves....NOT everyone wants to train and train for years....

Many want to able to learn simple and effective techniques...easy to remember...works in most cases!

Is there simple ways to learn to defend one self? ....Off course!

one example: run away....easy to teach...easy to learn how...easy for some to run...some gotta walk away...cause they NO can run! ....this also means... it can be difficult for some people...yet anyone can learn this!

Aloha
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Contrary to popular belief, there are places that teach quick and simple self defense. As we have all observed, practical SD to get someone up and running and able to defend themselves against an assailant does not require years of training, though that can be helpful (depending upon how you train).

According to your profile, you are a fairly advanced shotokan and kempo practitioner. Perhaps you could put together a quick and simple curriculum specifically for SD, as both have techniques that are very valuable for SD.

I know that if I were teaching strictly self defense with a TKD base, my lessons would be very different.

Daniel
 
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Contrary to popular belief, there are places that teach quick and simple self defense. As we have all observed, practical SD to get someone up and running and able to defend themselves against an assailant does not require years of training, though that can be helpful (depending upon how you train).

Getting up and away isn't easy if the guy whose got you is skilled at keeping you down. Also running away isn't always an option. Sometimes you have to stay and beat the attacker senseless. As I've said often enough; the viability of simple and quick to learn SD is incumbent on who and what you're defending yourself against.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Getting up and away isn't easy if the guy whose got you is skilled at keeping you down. Also running away isn't always an option. Sometimes you have to stay and beat the attacker senseless. As I've said often enough; the viability of simple and quick to learn SD is incumbent on who and what you're defending yourself against.
Though I agree with you, I am not sure what part of my post you are responding to.

I did not say a word about getting up and away or running away in the post that you quoted.

When I said, "up and running," I was referring to bringing a student to a point where they would have practical SD skills, which is generally takes less time to do than to teach a student the entire kyu grade curriculum.

Daniel
 
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Though I agree with you, I am not sure what part of my post you are responding to.

I did not say a word about getting up and away or running away in the post that you quoted.

When I said, "up and running," I was referring to bringing a student to a point where they would have practical SD skills, which is generally takes less time to do than to teach a student the entire kyu grade curriculum.

Daniel

I must have misread your quote.
 

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