When will learning self-defence be simple?

GBlues

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Sorry for double posting but I thought I'd post links to two stories where groins were struck. The first with an unhappy ending and the second with a happy one. While I personally believe that targeting weak spots is a valid strategical tool, I do not believe that they should be focused upon to the point that other techniques and tactics are lost.

Woman fails to stop rape: http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=812120&_cobr=optus

Woman escapes attacker: http://myselfdefenseblog.com/http:/...girl-kicks-knife-wielding-attacker-gets-away/

Ok, here's the deal. I have been in a lot of fights in my life time. A lot of fights. Especially growing up going to school. The reality is, 9 times out of 10 a groin shot works. It's not a fight ender, but it's a good place to start if you get it. When I say if you get it, because yeah, you can block it. Hell, you can block any kick or punch. It's when you don't that you get hurt. If you don't target weak points of the anatomy, you get hurt, not injured. That's the difference. There are a lot of guys who can take a shot to the face and it not even slow them down. A shot to a vital target, with your bodyweight behind it, is going to.

You know I used the testicles, the eye gouge, as examples, because everybody can identify with those targets. So let me give you another scenario, just targets alone. I'll use my math formula again and I'll string along some strikes much like a kenpo practitioner would.

Kick to the testicles+spinal reflex= bent over opponent holding groin. Bent over opponent+plus strike to the collarbone=broken collarbone. Strike to the opposite collarbone=2 broken collarbones. my weight+his ankle=broken ankle=opponent laying on the ground in injury. My foot+bodyweight+ his throat= dead attacker.

This guy was done at the first collar bone break. Everything else is above and beyond excessive force. This guy is going to look like he just got hit by a car at 50 mph an hour. Does that qualify as a fight ender?
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I just wanted to add, that the second story, it does not say that her attacker was kicked in the groin. It is speculated that she did. And in the first one, it worked for her, yeah she got punched in the face, but he didn't try to rape after that now did he. So, in reality what you have with these stories is groin shot 1 possible groin shot 1 and groin shots suck 0. LOL!
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Daniel Sullivan

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The biggest advantage of groin shots, throat strikes, and eye gouges is surprise. If you can get the shot, the attacker may be surprised enough to pause, allowing you time to either follow up with an attack that will cause injury or to effect escape.

The surprise factor, in my opinion, has to do with the fact that attackers generally attack those they see as easy prey. When they suffer pain in the process, this sometimes causes them to rethink the vulnerability of their prey.

A serial rapist, a seasoned mugger, or a gangbanger will probably not be as easily surprised like this, as they are accostomed to the idea that their prey may fight back.

Daniel
 

MJS

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I think something else to keep in mind is.....are the folks who're doing these hits to the groin and eyes just stopping, after 1 shot, in hopes that it was the magic KO.......or do they keep going? Of course, as I've said, 1 shot may be all it takes, but if it doesn't then you have nothing more than a pissed off person. If I'm going to go thru the process to knee someone or kick someone in the groin, its going to be followed up with a few more shots. :)
 

GBlues

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I think something else to keep in mind is.....are the folks who're doing these hits to the groin and eyes just stopping, after 1 shot, in hopes that it was the magic KO.......or do they keep going? Of course, as I've said, 1 shot may be all it takes, but if it doesn't then you have nothing more than a pissed off person. If I'm going to go thru the process to knee someone or kick someone in the groin, its going to be followed up with a few more shots. :)

Well, that is the crux though isn't it. Instictivelly almost everybody that has ever kicked somebody in the testicles or even just poked somebody in the eye stops. WHy? Because you feel bad, he's making awful noises, you can see the pain on his face, and you don't really want to cause that person more pain. You really want to ask, "Hey, pal you gonna be alright?" but again in a real situation you have to keep adding more pain and injuries till you feel comfortable that you can walk or run away. Once you start you can't stop, because like MJS said, your going have a really pissed off attacker on your hands if you do. We need to be like a guy eating pringles. Once you pop you just cant stop! LOL!
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Daniel Sullivan

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My self defense philosophy, both for myself and what I teach my students is to seek escape and to practive awarness and avoidance and to not go looking for trouble.

Realistically, the mindset of the majority of martial arts practitioners is not one of escalation. We spend our entire lives, beginning with nursury school, being taught that escalating a conflict is bad. Fighting back against the bully is recommended against, and now, if someone is attacked in school and fights back, both students are suspended.

On top of that, most of us have religious backgrounds which teach against escalation of conflict.

I am not saying whether this is good or bad. I am saying that we must take into account both our own mindset and that of our students and train them accordingly. Few instructors have the training or the time with their students to tear down their mental outlook and build it up into that of a soldier, so if you do not have that background or the time needed to accomplish it, do not attempt it.

Students should learn to do more than just take one shot and hope that it is a fight ender. But they should not be taught to prolong the fight. If escape is an option, they should seek that avenue.

Obviously, circumstances which prevent retreat or escape require one to do whatever is necessary to survive the encounter. In this case, students should learn what they need to end the fight quickly and efficiently in some way other than escape.

Daniel
 

BLACK LION

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I have alot of reading to do before I can post another rant but from what I have read I would like to flip the attention off of the "arena" or the "street" for that matter and shift it to the prison yard... or correctional facility dormroom etc. Lets turn our attention to a city of sociopaths whos experience comes not from years of training but single nights of lying in wait to ambush and annihilite his victims.... Lets focus on the pure EVIL that inherently lies here and approach it from that standpoint....
 

MJS

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Well, that is the crux though isn't it. Instictivelly almost everybody that has ever kicked somebody in the testicles or even just poked somebody in the eye stops. WHy? Because you feel bad, he's making awful noises, you can see the pain on his face, and you don't really want to cause that person more pain. You really want to ask, "Hey, pal you gonna be alright?" but again in a real situation you have to keep adding more pain and injuries till you feel comfortable that you can walk or run away. Once you start you can't stop, because like MJS said, your going have a really pissed off attacker on your hands if you do. We need to be like a guy eating pringles. Once you pop you just cant stop! LOL!
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LOL, yes, I like your analogy! :) I may be going out on a limb saying this, but I gotta say it anyways. Taking what you said in this post a bit further, I have to wonder if the 'before' and 'after' of a situation is ever taught in martial arts schools. I mean think about it....there're countless threads on here, such as this, and usually the subject of trying to defuse the situation (the before) comes up, as well as what may happen to you (the after) after the confrontation is over.

I say this because of the reactions and comments that I have got from people in the past, when talking about 'the brutal' side of the arts. Sure, its easy to sit and say that we'd knee someone in the balls, but can we actually seperate ourselves from what you said above? I don't know, I guess its just hard to understand why someone would say those things, ie: "Are you ok?" considering the fact that this person has zero remorse or concern for you, and was trying to cause you some serious bodily injuries.

I suppose what I said above is beyond the physical techniques. I mean, kinda hard to physically train that stuff, due to the fact that in training, I don't set out to nail my partner in the groin 4 times, so I can get the 'feeling' of what his reaction will be. I'd start running short on partners if I did that. LOL. However, I think that talking about it, making the students know what could happen, is a start. All comes down to the mindset I suppose. :)
 

MJS

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I have alot of reading to do before I can post another rant but from what I have read I would like to flip the attention off of the "arena" or the "street" for that matter and shift it to the prison yard... or correctional facility dormroom etc. Lets turn our attention to a city of sociopaths whos experience comes not from years of training but single nights of lying in wait to ambush and annihilite his victims.... Lets focus on the pure EVIL that inherently lies here and approach it from that standpoint....

Thats a good point. It may not be that those people are better with physical skills per se, but their desire to inflict harm and not think twice about it, is important to look at. I mean, in the above case, you're dealing with people who are the polar opposite of what Dan just described in his post. They have no morals, no values, they don't think that fighting is wrong, etc., so when faced with those people, we need to be able to block out the "fighting is wrong" mindset.
 

BLACK LION

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What underlies here is the fact that most instructors cannot effectively institute the mindset and abilities necessary to affectuate injury on a bonafide sociopath... Not everyone is wired that way. Not everyone can be wired that way. Not eveyone wants to be or cares to be.
Some dont see its worth and some wont see it...
Some believe it is a golden fruit thats only obtainable by devoting decades to training and subordination before one can even breathe in its direction let alone take a bite.... essentially untraining whats alreday inherent at birth...
The essence of what it takes to protect and preserve is inherently simple.... Like a sword or a gun... However it takes refinement of skill thru proper training to become a sniper or a swordsman... even though its essential composition is or should be simple....

I believe that what most who "dabble" in this facet of protection miss is the fact violence is a part of everday life and its based on actuality... its not just a certain day of training or time slot devoted to that part if "self defense" .... its not something you schedule into what you do... and try to juggle it with everything else...

It should by nature be included in all you do...and all you train.
Not with this technique or that technique or this list of 50 or that list of 100... the skill is refined thru an intimacy with the basic principles underlying evertyhing... the humanity...the physics... the anatomy and physiology... the psychology... the science that encompasses it as a whole...
Its not about finding out what works by sparring or by rollin on the mat or whatever... its done by slow and methodically application of basic principles until it becomes ingrained in the gross motor function and ultimately part of your personna...

Everyone has brought up good points... including the fact that allot of instructors water down "targeting" into something along the lines of slumber party horseplay....
not to say that a flick or smack or pinch isnt useful because it is... and may be the only thing viable at the moment to give you a few extra ticks... However the driving force behind this sort of training should be a sheer desire to cause destruction... and the ability to get in there like a surgeon and get to work on thier meat...

The injuring part is easy....The hardest thing to do is to train to injure someone without actually doing it...

There was a good quote in one of the training sequences in "The Hunted"... "The killing part is easy... the hardest part is learning how to shut it off" .....

with that being said...what underlies this type of training is simple... and by refining it to sheer principles it sheds a great deal of weight... each individual takes his/her own path how easy they obtain thier goal is up to them... is it an easy path... any true warrior will tell you no it is not... it takes a certain level of acceptance and conviction to don the vestplate of justice and stand before evil... it takes integrity and above all else I believe it is a calling... can anyone learn yes... just like anyone can try out for BUDS... but not eveyone can be a SEAL... not everyone can be a warrior... honestly.... a warrior
 
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S

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Hello, ONE DAY? ...A lot of martial art classes wil forcus more attention on the Verbal side of Self-defence!

and learning self-defence could be made even simple....proper languages and respect for others.

This verbal self-defence happens eveyday and everywhere in Amercia...all the time? ....Why isn't this taught in most school rooms and in Martial arts?

Simple is best.....Aloha
 

GBlues

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LOL, yes, I like your analogy! :) I may be going out on a limb saying this, but I gotta say it anyways. Taking what you said in this post a bit further, I have to wonder if the 'before' and 'after' of a situation is ever taught in martial arts schools. I mean think about it....there're countless threads on here, such as this, and usually the subject of trying to defuse the situation (the before) comes up, as well as what may happen to you (the after) after the confrontation is over.

I say this because of the reactions and comments that I have got from people in the past, when talking about 'the brutal' side of the arts. Sure, its easy to sit and say that we'd knee someone in the balls, but can we actually seperate ourselves from what you said above? I don't know, I guess its just hard to understand why someone would say those things, ie: "Are you ok?" considering the fact that this person has zero remorse or concern for you, and was trying to cause you some serious bodily injuries.

I suppose what I said above is beyond the physical techniques. I mean, kinda hard to physically train that stuff, due to the fact that in training, I don't set out to nail my partner in the groin 4 times, so I can get the 'feeling' of what his reaction will be. I'd start running short on partners if I did that. LOL. However, I think that talking about it, making the students know what could happen, is a start. All comes down to the mindset I suppose. :)


Yeah MJS I think the before and afters are covered in a lot of schools. One big thing about training I think is sound. When your practicing your partner should be trying to simulate to the best of his ability the reaction, your gonna get. So, if your practicing an eye gouge, and one that is designed to remove the eye from it's socket. At some point your partner should be screaming at the top of his lungs like you are really doing it. That will desensitize you to some of that, "Hey, pal you alright?". It should be that way with every technique. I know that before I lost my job, I was attending to-shindo, and sometimes I'd get pretty loud as an attacker in the training. You know, "I'll kill you!!!!" and wrap my hands around there neck. I try to be as realistic as possible. Try to give that feel of violence to my partner. The problem is if your not used to that, it's a very new experience to someone that has never been in a fight, or violent situation. I'd try to make the proper types of noises that I would think you would make having those techniques done to me if it was in real life. The more sensory out put that you can give, and get in training, it's gonna make you a whole lot better. The reactions are your gauge for success, if your not getting that reaction in a real situation, you didn't do it right, or you didn't hit, so you've got to do it again, but do it right. you know what I mean?

As far as some of the other posters and the de-escalation, yeah that is an important part of training. There is another side to that coin though also, sometimes it's not better to get into your hands up read position and try to create some space and talk this guy down. Sometimes it's not going to work. So you have to be the first one to move. Action is faster than reaction, once you put your mindset into the self-defense mode, your reactionary. So that de-escalation, could actually in some situations put you in a very bad spot. You have to listen to that gut instinct, or for women your womans intuition. Because there are times when it's better to just get it on. I think some schools and instructors make to big of a deal about de-escalation. That to much emphasis on it, and not enough on, "Look if you know in your heart, this guy just isn't going to let you walk away, then you have to do what you feel is necassary and it may mean turning the tables and becoming the aggressor in some situations. It may mean that you don't wait for him to throw the first punch, you may have to make sure that you go home in one piece." Ok, those gut feelings are more accurate than some people want to give it credit for. I listen to my gut feeling almost every single time. I don't question it. I've been out with my girlfriend at the highschool parking lot just hanging out in my truck, and got that gut feeling. I started the truck, and split just as fast as I could. Probably nothing would have happened, but I don't care. I wasn't there to find out if something was going to either. She got the same feeling right after I told her, "Were LEAVING!" So, you know, that has to be addressed also.

Another thing is the mindset, like what BlackLion is wanting to talk about. I think the only way to describe is, if you stepped outside your door and saw a young kid being mauled by a big dog. You wouldn't even think twice about blowing that dogs head clean off with a gun, if that's what you needed to do to save that kids life. WHy? Because we have been conditioned to believe that human life is worth more than an animals. Now, take it one step further, it's your dog, that is mauling that young kid. I know for myself, it's the same story, dead dog. I can't let that dog hurt that kid. Now, your typical a-social person, is coming out of there house and see there dog, mauling this kid, he might shoot the dog, but it's going to bother him more, that he killed his dog, than if that kid had died. He may not even shoot the damned dog. So he doesn't value human life. He actually thinks that your life is worth less than a dogs. Now, the mauling dog, is the attacker, and your the kid. You really give a rats patooti if you kill that rabid dog? Probably not. You aren't even gonna lose sleep over it. ANd that is the mindset of these people in the correctional facilities, that kill so easily. They don't care about your life, it's worth nothing. So, when confronted by one of these individuals you need to be just as callous in your attack on that person. See them as a dog, and you won't want to ask, "Hey pal you alright?" Well, I hope this all came out the way that I intended it too. LOL!
 

BLACK LION

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Negotiation is the only "verbal" alternative to physical agression or egression . It is still one sided in the fact that they are essentially being commanded what to do in order to prevent them from being injured. Even here they are the ones who compromise after they compute the orders they were just dictated.
Give them the terms and let them decide thier fate....
Just becuase you are verbalizing doesnt mean you are socializing... keep that in mind... you are not there to reason or compromise... you are negotiating for compliance so you do not have to resort to agressive force to get it....

then again most if not all negotiation happens before the bomb timer starts its countdown(basically a social setting that could turn violent)... once the countdown begins(imminent danger)... the only option is to physically diffuse or disconnect it before it explodes... becuase you cannot talk a bomb out of exploding once the timer starts...
 

BLACK LION

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Thats a good point. It may not be that those people are better with physical skills per se, but their desire to inflict harm and not think twice about it, is important to look at. I mean, in the above case, you're dealing with people who are the polar opposite of what Dan just described in his post. They have no morals, no values, they don't think that fighting is wrong, etc., so when faced with those people, we need to be able to block out the "fighting is wrong" mindset.

This is why its paramount to be a true "professional" when it comes to this training and the path associated with it.
Navy SEALS and Marine force recon and Army delta are all highly trained opratives and essentially "killing machines" on the battle field... but when on leave or liberty they do not take any of that with them(for the most part)...They are polite and professional but they can kill everything in sight.... they could have just killed 15 people on thier last tour but you wouldnt know it becuase they dont wear it on thier chest as an adornment or token of accomplishment....

I really think it boils down to the integrity of the training as a whole... you cannot water this stuff down and expect it to hold its weight... you cannot be contradictory by bringing up moral-social-or legal issues while trying to ingrain a martial-killer mindset and personna. You cannot train to injure or kill while dangling a moral-legal carrot in the face...it does not work that way... the whole laboratory needs to be all about violence and all about you being the only one doing it... never them.. they get nothing accept a dirt nap... thats all you owe them.

it should be the goal of everyone getting training or training others in this field to be a professional operator... or operate professionally...
live a normal respectable life but have instant access to the "kill switch" when needed...if ever
 
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I think most of here agree that attacking vital spots can be effective but only if properly applied. Also in the case of some attackers who need more "incentive" to stop, relying purely on one shots is foolish.

So back to the original topic. Who has found an effective SD curriculum that is both easy and fast to learn? I have yet to find one which I guess explains my general disbelief in quick and fast to learn SD.
 

Bruno@MT

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I suggest instead getting a sharp and strong four to six inch letter opener and learning to use it. Always legal to carry outside of a plane.

You've obviously never been to the UK, or at least not in the last couple of years. :)
Carrying a six inch letter opener in your jacket is going to cause you a lot of problems if the cops can make a reasonable assumption that you are intending to use it as a weapon.
 

GBlues

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I think most of here agree that attacking vital spots can be effective but only if properly applied. Also in the case of some attackers who need more "incentive" to stop, relying purely on one shots is foolish.

So back to the original topic. Who has found an effective SD curriculum that is both easy and fast to learn? I have yet to find one which I guess explains my general disbelief in quick and fast to learn SD.

Yeah I don't think anyone here is relying on ones shot stop here. As far as the simple, and easy to learn, I would recommend the guys at Target Focus Training if you live in and around the San Diego area. If you don't live in San Diego then I would suggest trying to find a reality based instructor whose focus is on, vital targets.
 

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I apologize in advance if this has been mentioned. It is not how many techniques you know, but how many we own. A lot of people are taken up with knowledge of hundreds of moves, while the aggressor just sucker punches you. There is a lot to consider in self defense, but it is knowing a little very well, rather then a lot, mediocre. When in doubt, just kiss it.
With all do respect, keep it simple stupid. Not my saying, but wise words.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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It is rare for me to invoke Bruce Lee, but in keeping with Seasoned's comment, which I entirely agree with, Lee once said that it is not the man who knows 10,000 kicks that he fears, but the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.

The idea being that it is not how many techniques one knows, but how many one knows well and has internalized and can use instinctively.

Daniel
 

Drac

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WOW..Lots of GREAT posts here..I've learned countless techniques in the last 30 years, and there are maybe 6 that I used constantly.But I nned that exposure to find those favorites.Yes, ya can get a lot of SD techniques at the white belt level in many disciplines, but will it be effective against a drugged up or drunk aggressor or too someone with a higher threshold of pain...

I dislike the whole Verbal Judo or Tounge-Fu..I have seen too many altercations where the victim spent too much time attempting to defuse a situation and wasn't watching the other persons body language..If they want your watch, wallet or money, GIVE IT TO THEM...

As the a few of the others said..Buy a gun, get your CCW permit and THEN keep a very experienced and very excpensive crimminal trial lawyer on retainer..Cause the first time you use it the POS will take you to court and sue you..
 

BLACK LION

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The "base" I emphasize now so much in everything from striking to breaking to throwing I learned 25 years ago when I was a white belt.

Whats strange is that it never made true sense to me until I ventured into the side asocial of injuries . I looked at it as static once I learned a little "footwork". I thought dancing around my opponent was practical.
I then perfected my "footwork" for over a decade only to discard it and revert back to my "base".

I neve saw the simplicity in things until I based them on all the applicable principles.

the principles are the simplicity. They are what we retain first and what we retain last...
 

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