When they charge in?

INDYFIGHTER

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When I feel treatened by someone I now instictively create distance (at least 5ft) and take a relaxed but ready stance. I want them to know that they're in for a fight if they come in. I've done this a few times when I got caught outside the bar by angry patrons we've thrown out. Most the time I'm able to dance around them long enough to get the attention of our officer who comes to my rescue. Most the time they may make a small attemt to close the gap but when I retreat a few steps and take a more aggressive stance they hold fast.

I've noticed a trend among a certain type of guy/girl where they cross the gap hard and fast like an attack but only to get in your face or push you I guess. Honestly I'm not sure what they could be thinking but I know what they're not thinking and that is that they're going to get hit in the face.

I was in this situation this weekend. A guy we'd thrown out had come charging back at us after we got him out the door and the bouncer with me locked up with him and threw him to the ground. He then grabbed a hold of my foot and I dragged him a few feet away from the door and then jerked my foot free and he got up in front of me. At this point I consider this guy hostile and I've got 6 or 7 feet between us and I'm standing still. Here he comes, fast, deliberate. His arms at his side and back, hands in fists, his chest out, head and neck out even further almost like my speed bag just floating in air.

Am I supposed to just let this guy who's come at me once already to cover this gap untouched and get in my face or push me or hit me. I didn't.

Once things have gone hostile and I've created a perimiter then that's mine and anyone crossing it, hands up or down are getting hit in the face.

This trend is something I seen a lot in high school and I'm not saying that high school students should hit everyone who gets in their face. Can't count how many times there was someone in my face and nothing ever happend.

I'm more concerned with the guy who you've never met on the street who seems intent on causing you harm. Does anyone feel that this is not sufficient enough of a treat to throw the first blow? Could I be risking assult charges by taking this stance?
 

morph4me

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IMO, someone charging in hard and fast is attacking me, and I will hit him hard and fast. Since I'm not psychic I can only go by past experience and my instinct for survival. I think I can argue in court that I was afraid that he was trying to do me serious bodily harm and responded accordingly.
 

MattJ

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I wouldn't necessarily hit the guy, but I would most certainly be using the fence to keep him a safe distance. If he got too close, he would get a hard push to the chest.
 

Touch Of Death

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When I feel treatened by someone I now instictively create distance (at least 5ft) and take a relaxed but ready stance. I want them to know that they're in for a fight if they come in. I've done this a few times when I got caught outside the bar by angry patrons we've thrown out. Most the time I'm able to dance around them long enough to get the attention of our officer who comes to my rescue. Most the time they may make a small attemt to close the gap but when I retreat a few steps and take a more aggressive stance they hold fast.

I've noticed a trend among a certain type of guy/girl where they cross the gap hard and fast like an attack but only to get in your face or push you I guess. Honestly I'm not sure what they could be thinking but I know what they're not thinking and that is that they're going to get hit in the face.

I was in this situation this weekend. A guy we'd thrown out had come charging back at us after we got him out the door and the bouncer with me locked up with him and threw him to the ground. He then grabbed a hold of my foot and I dragged him a few feet away from the door and then jerked my foot free and he got up in front of me. At this point I consider this guy hostile and I've got 6 or 7 feet between us and I'm standing still. Here he comes, fast, deliberate. His arms at his side and back, hands in fists, his chest out, head and neck out even further almost like my speed bag just floating in air.

Am I supposed to just let this guy who's come at me once already to cover this gap untouched and get in my face or push me or hit me. I didn't.

Once things have gone hostile and I've created a perimiter then that's mine and anyone crossing it, hands up or down are getting hit in the face.

This trend is something I seen a lot in high school and I'm not saying that high school students should hit everyone who gets in their face. Can't count how many times there was someone in my face and nothing ever happend.

I'm more concerned with the guy who you've never met on the street who seems intent on causing you harm. Does anyone feel that this is not sufficient enough of a treat to throw the first blow? Could I be risking assult charges by taking this stance?
I've had this happen to me at work more than a few times. I'm actually a bit torn on the subject myself. I look at it like this. My target is always the spine and they are saving me the trouble of closing the distance. However, they are almost never really striking you so just stand your ground and don't flinch; It scares them. Lastly, this is when all that class time pays off. Watch for the incomming attack. There is a counter for everything; so, no matter what he just screwed up.
Sean
 
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INDYFIGHTER

INDYFIGHTER

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I've had this happen to me at work more than a few times. I'm actually a bit torn on the subject myself. I look at it like this. My target is always the spine and they are saving me the trouble of closing the distance. However, they are almost never really striking you so just stand your ground and don't flinch; It scares them. Lastly, this is when all that class time pays off. Watch for the incomming attack. There is a counter for everything; so, no matter what he just screwed up.
Sean


I understand what you're saying but I don't feel I have to give up this ground. It's one thing when they stop say 4' out and stand there talking but when they come with in 3' or arms length then they've entered into my 'personal space'. Last weekend when this guys face met my fist halfway between us I took two steps back to again established my distance from him and it was enough. He treatened to kick my ... and I welcomed him to try, pulled my maglite from my back pocket for effect and he backed down and walked.

I don't feel it neccassary to stand toe to toe with someone who is treatening me. At the office or school when you KNOW the other person, KNOW they're not likely to stab you with a knife then that's different and you have to use restraint, at least if you don't want fired. When this is a total stranger you don't know thier intentions and must assume the worst.
 

theletch1

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In Nihon Goshin Aikido we discuss a distance that we call ma-ai. Stand with your arm straight out and have your training partner stand facing you with his/her arm straight out as well touching finger tips. This is ma-ai. This is the absolute closest that anyone can get to you without posing a threat (if they want to). From ma-ai on out they can swing, kick, cuss whatever but with out a weapon to extend their reach they are no danger. Anything inside that range and they are a danger and should be dealt with according to the situation. In your instance from this weekend I'd have to agree with Morph (as I most often do) that you wouldn't have too hard a time convincing a judge of the concern for your own safety.
 
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INDYFIGHTER

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In Nihon Goshin Aikido we discuss a distance that we call ma-ai. Stand with your arm straight out and have your training partner stand facing you with his/her arm straight out as well touching finger tips. This is ma-ai. This is the absolute closest that anyone can get to you without posing a threat (if they want to). From ma-ai on out they can swing, kick, cuss whatever but with out a weapon to extend their reach they are no danger. Anything inside that range and they are a danger and should be dealt with according to the situation. In your instance from this weekend I'd have to agree with Morph (as I most often do) that you wouldn't have too hard a time convincing a judge of the concern for your own safety.


I agree with that completely! Thanks for the info. I have a friend who teaches Aikido I'll have to dicuss ma-ai with.
 

TheOriginalName

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My understanding of the law where i am (Melbourne, Australia) is that if you feel threatened you have the right to protect yourself - however the level of force used must be proportional to the threat.

This may or may not be appricable where you are but it sounds like this is not an unusual occurance for you, so perhaps you need to go down to the local police station and have a chat with them regarding what you are allowed and not allowed to do in such situations. At least that way you will be informed by people who should know what they are talking about.
 

myusername

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Sounds to me that you did everything right! The guy rushed into your space so you dealt with threat and created more space. The guy then had an option wether to try the same again or bugger off. He wisely chose the latter! If you had kept advancing after your first blow you would have been in the wrong but as you didn't he had complete control over how badly he got hurt. In the UK under common Law that would be termed reasonable force proportianate to the threat and at all times your response was reasonable and proportianate.
 

Bobby135

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IndyFighter,

Great Post. Just as a heads up you may want to check the bouncer/security forum in the general self defense category. That is a great place for discussions like this. Here is my $.02. I have been a bouncer for almost 4 years and one of the steadfast rules we have is never use a closed fist. Where I live, especially if does not throw a punch first, you are very likely to get sued along with your establishment. I say always use an open hand.
 
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INDYFIGHTER

INDYFIGHTER

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IndyFighter,

Great Post. Just as a heads up you may want to check the bouncer/security forum in the general self defense category. That is a great place for discussions like this. Here is my $.02. I have been a bouncer for almost 4 years and one of the steadfast rules we have is never use a closed fist. Where I live, especially if does not throw a punch first, you are very likely to get sued along with your establishment. I say always use an open hand.


Lol. I know, it's something I have to work on badly! My hands are starting to show signs of wear. Old habits die hard!:banghead:
 

kaizasosei

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posted by Indyfighter:

small attemt to close the gap but when I retreat a few steps and take a more aggressive stance they hold fast.


i really can appreciate the way that you describe your evasive strategies as well as the use of stance to effectively stop an attacker.

technically, if someone can evade better than an enemy can hit, then there is practically no way of getting hit.

as long as one evades the line of attacks effectively and doesnt get strafed or hit by a freak swing or lunge, then, one can keep circling for a while.
after some time, in most cases, one will need to deliver a preemptive strike, idealy quick effective and sortof humiliating. overly destructive moves or powerful hits, aside from requiring greater proximity may simply provoke a more intense reaction causing the attacker to use an means possible, possibly even something surprising and brutally effective. - of course, at some point if it were to really turn ugly, one would need to badly injure or hurt/stun in order to maintain the level of security needed to keep effective combat distance.

but the question would arise; what reasons could there be to attack anyone in the first place? when does the attacker initially spot, observe and form plans of attacking? - one really great strategy is to focus on trying to evade the initial state of being observed, obstructing the surrounding with sheer concious openness whilst also knowing the powerful effects of being passive.
the greatest difficulty would be being in a situation where you cannot even begin to fight because of the odds.
 

MJS

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I wouldn't necessarily hit the guy, but I would most certainly be using the fence to keep him a safe distance. If he got too close, he would get a hard push to the chest.

Great post! I like the idea of the fence. IMO, I think the situation always needs to be assessed. In this case, where the OP is a bouncer, I don't think the idea is to beat the tar out of the person, but to protect the establishment. Pushing the person off is a good idea. Of course, if that doesn't work, I'd probably try to lean more towards controlling the person, ie: joint locks, submission, etc. Of course, if all else fails, we may have to resort to more force.
 

terryl965

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I believe instrinct would just kick in when someone is rushing in, that would cause me to re-act and absolutely put them on ther back one way or another and see what happens in court.

Now if they just made a motion I would step back to gain the advantage and see what happens.
 

kaizasosei

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Now if they just made a motion I would step back to gain the advantage and see what happens.

maybe not exactly the same, but watching crocop fight bob sapp, i felt that crocop really did a good job at evading the beast. sometimes, he was practically fleeing the attacks, but in the end, he established distance and finished the fight with one swift counterattack(solid,i believe, left punch to the beasts jaw).

of course retreating or even faking retreating is a big part of fighting and strategy.






j
 

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When I feel treatened by someone I now instictively create distance (at least 5ft) and take a relaxed but ready stance. I want them to know that they're in for a fight if they come in. I've done this a few times when I got caught outside the bar by angry patrons we've thrown out. Most the time I'm able to dance around them long enough to get the attention of our officer who comes to my rescue. Most the time they may make a small attemt to close the gap but when I retreat a few steps and take a more aggressive stance they hold fast.

I've noticed a trend among a certain type of guy/girl where they cross the gap hard and fast like an attack but only to get in your face or push you I guess. Honestly I'm not sure what they could be thinking but I know what they're not thinking and that is that they're going to get hit in the face.

I was in this situation this weekend. A guy we'd thrown out had come charging back at us after we got him out the door and the bouncer with me locked up with him and threw him to the ground. He then grabbed a hold of my foot and I dragged him a few feet away from the door and then jerked my foot free and he got up in front of me. At this point I consider this guy hostile and I've got 6 or 7 feet between us and I'm standing still. Here he comes, fast, deliberate. His arms at his side and back, hands in fists, his chest out, head and neck out even further almost like my speed bag just floating in air.

Am I supposed to just let this guy who's come at me once already to cover this gap untouched and get in my face or push me or hit me. I didn't.

Once things have gone hostile and I've created a perimiter then that's mine and anyone crossing it, hands up or down are getting hit in the face.

This trend is something I seen a lot in high school and I'm not saying that high school students should hit everyone who gets in their face. Can't count how many times there was someone in my face and nothing ever happend.

I'm more concerned with the guy who you've never met on the street who seems intent on causing you harm. Does anyone feel that this is not sufficient enough of a treat to throw the first blow? Could I be risking assult charges by taking this stance?

Tough situation indeed, but as you put here, you gave them space, if they continue to press that space, then by all means, they are the aggressor and it's on them, now of course depending on their state of mind and body actions, you can either deflect, redirect their actions with as little or no harm to them as possible or disable them so they cannot continue any further.
 

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In most places in the US, if you've made it clear you do not wish to make physical contact with an individual, any attempt on their part to touch you is considered assault. If they make any contact with you after you've expressed your wishes to the contrary, it's considered battery. This even applies if they gently place their hand on your shoulder. Of course you must respond with an appropriate amount of force compared to their level of aggression. If it's just a hand on you, you should first tell them to remove it. If that doesn't work, you may physically remove it. If, after that, they attempt to replace it, you may use minor force to remove it, such as a minor wrist lock. If that doesn't deter them they are likely to escalate their level of aggression. Deal with accordingly. In the case of OP, where the attacker has repeatedly attempted to accost the defender, use the least amount of force possible to neutralize the threat. In that case it would mean restraining the the individual until the police arrive. Since you have back-up, you should be able to stop him with minimal damage. If you were alone against a tenacious, unarmed attacker, you may have to go so far as to inflict a severe hyper extension of the knee to facilitate an unmolested escape. In short, if you do the least amount of damage you can, and at the same time eliminate their will to fight, you should be within your legal rights.
 
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INDYFIGHTER

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maybe not exactly the same, but watching crocop fight bob sapp, i felt that crocop really did a good job at evading the beast. sometimes, he was practically fleeing the attacks, but in the end, he established distance and finished the fight with one swift counterattack(solid,i believe, left punch to the beasts jaw).

of course retreating or even faking retreating is a big part of fighting and strategy.






j

I like what you said here. I can imagine that dancing around avoiding attacks might look like a sign of weakness to a street attacker or his friends. Might even get him to drop his guard to make fun of you to his buddies which is a great time to close that gap and knock his block off!
 

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