What could happen when fist meets fist?

Kung Fu Wang

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Last night my friends visited me. One guy asked if I still train MA and I said yes. Since he had some Kempo Karate training, we soon got into MA discussion. I mentioned "rhino guard" and he wanted to know more detail. I put up my "rhino guard", aimed toward his chest, exposed my face, and asked him to punch my face. He asked, "What kind of punch?" I said, "Any punch, as fast as you can, and as powerful as you can". He threw a fast and powerful straight punch toward my face. I raised my "rhino guard" and met with his punch. Something happened. His fist meets my fist with knuckles on knuckles. He suddenly pulled his punch back, used his other hand to hold on his punching hand, and asked me for some ice. I then found out that when his fist met my fist, he broke one of his finger. This had never happened to me before. I don't even know this is even possible.

Do you have this kind of experience that "your fist meets your opponent's fist" right in the thin air? What's the possibility that this could happen in reality?

fist_meets_fist.jpg
 
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Phobius

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Last night my friends visited me. One guy asked if I still train MA and I said yes. Since he had some Kempo Karate training, we soon got into MA discussion. I mentioned "rhino guard" and he wanted to know more detail. I put up my "rhino guard", aimed toward his chest, exposed my face, and asked him to punch my face. He asked, "What kind of punch?" I said, "Any punch, as fast as you can, and as powerful as you can". He threw a fast and powerful straight punch toward my face. I raised my "rhino guard" and met with his punch. Something happened. His fist meets my fist with knuckles on knuckles. He suddenly pulled his punch back, used his other hand to hold on his punching hand, and asked me for some ice. I then found out that when his fist met my fist, he broke one of his finger. This had never happened to me before. I don't even know this is even possible.

Do you have this kind of experience that "your fist meets your opponent's fist" right in the thin air? What's the possibility that this could happen in reality?

fist_meets_fist.jpg

Happend to me a few times. (I do mean a few only)

It hurts like hell when done against a person that has protruding skeleton (sp?) meaning their bones are really sharp and nasty with little muscle to pad them. Have I had any other trouble other than sheer pain from the hit? Not really, more often those I punch feel the pain in such scenario but then again I do condition my fist regularly to withstand hitting a hard surface with minimal injury only.

Key to do it I believe is also to have a correct fist and luck with alignment. So in other words, dont do it at home.
 

Kickboxer101

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Never seen it happen but if a knuckle hits the finger with power then yeah it easily could happen
 

Touch Of Death

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You guys, there is a whole art to this. It is called defanging. If you position yourself to strike, you don't even need a guard. Just meet his punches with a punch of your own. I broke a kids hand once, with my elbow, by simply placing my guard in front of the target. I felt terrible, but he felt even more terrible. :)
 

geezer

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You guys, there is a whole art to this. It is called defanging. If you position yourself to strike, you don't even need a guard. Just meet his punches with a punch of your own. I broke a kids hand once, with my elbow, by simply placing my guard in front of the target. I felt terrible, but he felt even more terrible. :)

Elbow against fist makes sense. Fist against arm muscle makes sense. Fist against fist? I don't see the sense in that... unless....

 

Touch Of Death

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Elbow against fist makes sense. Fist against arm muscle makes sense. Fist against fist? I don't see the sense in that... unless....

If you aim for just under the knuckles with your knuckles, you could break a finger, but they would have to be slow, and have very big hands. :)
 

JowGaWolf

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Last night my friends visited me. One guy asked if I still train MA and I said yes. Since he had some Kempo Karate training, we soon got into MA discussion. I mentioned "rhino guard" and he wanted to know more detail. I put up my "rhino guard", aimed toward his chest, exposed my face, and asked him to punch my face. He asked, "What kind of punch?" I said, "Any punch, as fast as you can, and as powerful as you can". He threw a fast and powerful straight punch toward my face. I raised my "rhino guard" and met with his punch. Something happened. His fist meets my fist with knuckles on knuckles. He suddenly pulled his punch back, used his other hand to hold on his punching hand, and asked me for some ice. I then found out that when his fist met my fist, he broke one of his finger. This had never happened to me before. I don't even know this is even possible.

Do you have this kind of experience that "your fist meets your opponent's fist" right in the thin air? What's the possibility that this could happen in reality?

fist_meets_fist.jpg
Oddly enough it has happened to me in real life earlier this year and it happened at least 5 or 6 times in the same night when I was doing some light sparring with the other instructor. We were both amazed because it was just like the movies where the 2 fighters are throwing the same techniques down the same zone of space. We couldn't do this even if we tried because the punches were dead center no glances. It's one of our favorite kung fu stories to talk about when we talk to students about the importance of creating a solid fist when punching. If you punch with a fist that isn't tight then you'll run the risk of breaking a finger or the hand itself. Loose fingers in a fist can cause them to collapse and break on impact. A tight fist keeps the fingers and knuckles from moving which in turn keeps them from breaking. keep in mind that a tight fist doesn't mean squeeze the hand until your eyes pop out. It just means that it tight enough to prevent movement and collapsing of the fingers that make the fist.

This is good advice in general as there is always a possibility that you may hit an elbow during a fight and if it's going to happen it's better to hit the elbow with a good fist structure than bad fist structure.
 

Touch Of Death

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Oddly enough it has happened to me in real life earlier this year and it happened at least 5 or 6 times in the same night when I was doing some light sparring with the other instructor. We were both amazed because it was just like the movies where the 2 fighters are throwing the same techniques down the same zone of space. We couldn't do this even if we tried because the punches were dead center no glances. It's one of our favorite kung fu stories to talk about when we talk to students about the importance of creating a solid fist when punching. If you punch with a fist that isn't tight then you'll run the risk of breaking a finger or the hand itself. Loose fingers in a fist can cause them to collapse and break on impact. A tight fist keeps the fingers and knuckles from moving which in turn keeps them from breaking. keep in mind that a tight fist doesn't mean squeeze the hand until your eyes pop out. It just means that it tight enough to prevent movement and collapsing of the fingers that make the fist.

This is good advice in general as there is always a possibility that you may hit an elbow during a fight and if it's going to happen it's better to hit the elbow with a good fist structure than bad fist structure.
No way! Keep it all loose, until the moment of impact. :)
 

JowGaWolf

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No way! Keep it all loose, until the moment of impact. :)
I've broken my finger twice for not making a tight fist. It's possible to have a tight fist without being tense and without squeezing the crap out of your hand. Here's the flaw in the thinking of keeping the hand loos until the moment of impact. You don't always know when the moment of impact will be. When I clashed fists with the instructor I didn't know that the moment of impact would be me hitting his fist.

When people say make a tight fist at the moment of impact, it's said with the assumption that you know when the moment of impact will be. You could throw a punch to may face and I can break the bone in your hand with my elbow all because you thought the moment of impact would be your fist hitting my face and not your fist hitting my elbow 8 inches in front of my face.

I
 

Touch Of Death

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I've broken my finger twice for not making a tight fist. It's possible to have a tight fist without being tense and without squeezing the crap out of your hand. Here's the flaw in the thinking of keeping the hand loos until the moment of impact. You don't always know when the moment of impact will be. When I clashed fists with the instructor I didn't know that the moment of impact would be me hitting his fist.

When people say make a tight fist at the moment of impact, it's said with the assumption that you know when the moment of impact will be. You could throw a punch to may face and I can break the bone in your hand with my elbow all because you thought the moment of impact would be your fist hitting my face and not your fist hitting my elbow 8 inches in front of my face.

I
So..., why wasn't my hand all the way open, eight inches from your face? :cool:
 

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The less prepared fist will fail. The extent of the fail will depend on how hard each punch was thrown, specifics of how they meet, individual differences in bodies... maybe even the wind and phase of the moon. ;)
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Elbow against fist makes sense. Fist against arm muscle makes sense. Fist against fist? I don't see the sense in that... unless....
It was not intended.

- My "rhino guard" pointed toward his chest and let my face opened.
- He punched at my face.
- My "rhino guard" punched at his face at the same time.

In my next class, I'll try to see if I can re-create this again. May be I can. May be I can't.
 

JowGaWolf

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Faces aren't the same as hitting a bag.
They aren't the same but you will form a fist around the same time when you hit it. When you hit a heavy bag with your fist, you will be able to see how far away your hand is when it starts to make a fist. You will be able to see when you first start to form a fist in order to prepare for impact (this is for an open hand to a close hand).
 

JowGaWolf

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It was not intended.

- My "rhino guard" pointed toward his chest and let my face opened.
- He punched at my face.
- My "rhino guard" punched at his face at the same time.

In my next class, I'll try to see if I can re-create this again. May be I can. May be I can't.
In my case where I clashed fists, it wasn't intended either. It just happened and hasn't happened since. Maybe a person can parry with one hand and use the parrying hand to help guide the punching hand to the opponent's fist. But even then there's no telling how the fists will clash, will the knuckles hit knuckles or will the knuckle hit the flat part of the fist. Just let your partner to make a good fist so they don't break their finger
 

geezer

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...I've broken my finger twice for not making a tight fist. It's possible to have a tight fist without being tense and without squeezing the crap out of your hand. Here's the flaw in the thinking of keeping the hand loos until the moment of impact. You don't always know when the moment of impact will be.

We have a very different approach. Typically, we keep the elbow down, centered behind a vertical fist. And we keep the fist soft (not floppy or loose) even on impact. The wrist firms up a bit to drive through the target, but the fingers of the fist are soft and compress, letting the knuckles drive deeper into the target. If you keep good bone alignment you can hit bags or harder surfaces even at unpredictable ranges without problems. You can do pushups like this on hard floors without much conditioning ...and stay relaxed.

In fact I've only hurt my hand when I was careless about maintaining this structure, like carelessly hitting a swinging, spinning bag at angle with a weak wrist a few weeks back. That was dumb. :oops:

Oh, and I did do some permanent, if minor damage to the knuckle of my left pinkie by hitting a hard sand-filled wall bag, doing sets of 1,000 reps and hitting with my hand too tight. Poor technique, overtraining and the foolhardiness of youth. I should have listened to my instructor, trained in moderation with more relaxation.
 

JowGaWolf

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We have a very different approach. Typically, we keep the elbow down, centered behind a vertical fist. And we keep the fist soft (not floppy or loose) even on impact. The wrist firms up a bit to drive through the target, but the fingers of the fist are soft and compress, letting the knuckles drive deeper into the target. If you keep good bone alignment you can hit bags or harder surfaces even at unpredictable ranges without problems. You can do pushups like this on hard floors without much conditioning ...and stay relaxed.

In fact I've only hurt my hand when I was careless about maintaining this structure, like carelessly hitting a swinging, spinning bag at angle with a weak wrist a few weeks back. That was dumb. :oops:

Oh, and I did do some permanent, if minor damage to the knuckle of my left pinkie by hitting a hard sand-filled wall bag, doing sets of 1,000 reps and hitting with my hand too tight. Poor technique, overtraining and the foolhardiness of youth. I should have listened to my instructor, trained in moderation with more relaxation.
Because of the way we swing we have to learn how to hold a tight fist while relaxing everything else in the arm. This way my fist is tight and my arm is relaxed. It's very difficult to do but possible. I couldn't imagine hitting anything 1000 times. 1000 sound like a lot of wear and tear
 

Buka

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Last night my friends visited me. One guy asked if I still train MA and I said yes. Since he had some Kempo Karate training, we soon got into MA discussion. I mentioned "rhino guard" and he wanted to know more detail. I put up my "rhino guard", aimed toward his chest, exposed my face, and asked him to punch my face. He asked, "What kind of punch?" I said, "Any punch, as fast as you can, and as powerful as you can". He threw a fast and powerful straight punch toward my face. I raised my "rhino guard" and met with his punch. Something happened. His fist meets my fist with knuckles on knuckles. He suddenly pulled his punch back, used his other hand to hold on his punching hand, and asked me for some ice. I then found out that when his fist met my fist, he broke one of his finger. This had never happened to me before. I don't even know this is even possible.

Do you have this kind of experience that "your fist meets your opponent's fist" right in the thin air? What's the possibility that this could happen in reality?

fist_meets_fist.jpg

Never experienced it. Boy, that must have sucked.
Hope your buddy's hand is okay, bro.
 

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