What's Wrong With Kata?

[GaryR]

Hey Folks, wrote an article for my site; Thoughts,personal experiences, arguments welcome...

What’s Wrong With Kata?
By Gary L Romel, Esq.
www.FlowingCombat.net
​

Window Dressing and Rank Fodder

Most involved in the Martial Arts and even those of you merely window shopping can picture students in fancy uniforms lined up doing a long sequence of moves. They copy off the other students in front of them, all while watching the teacher to carefully mimic their movement when he/she is in view. Rank in a majority of schools is largely dependent on the requirement of the performance of such forms or Kata. This emphasis on kata for rank gives the student a very false sense of security, and compromises the integrity of the arts. I have walked into countless dojo’s across the globe and witnessed “Black Belts” lined up with very poor mechanics, and unable to spontaneously deviate from their Kata under any duress. If they spar, it becomes a dance, in which it looks not so much like the form or the techniques as practiced. The arts need to be practiced until they bypass cognitive thought. Trying to memorize long sequence of forms is counter-productive to such a goal. It takes exponentially longer to get such muscle memory down, and prolongs the neuromuscular systems programming to execute the concepts in a dynamic real-time fashion. While keeping the tradition alive so as not to lose the rich history of the Arts is important per se, Kata needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt in the context of developing the combat viability of such arts and manifesting a high level of skill in a real situation.

The only real reason for Kata in the Self-defense context is so students can grasp the concept on which the technique turns. This may be necessary to learn to adapt the concept to one’s own physical specifications. Thus, such mimicry is important for the very early stages of a student’s development, but beyond the beginner level of teaching the concepts, Kata has no place. No matter how many years one perfects such forms; it will still not adequately prepare someone for a fight. Rarely is a Kata’s movement actually used exactly as practiced in a form, and even more seldom is the exact sequence of moves used.

Stop and Start: The Necessity of Continuous Movement

By nature, learning long forms tends to require the students stop and start their movements / techniques over and over again. This is a product of trying to put long sequences into memory, recalling the next move or series of moves, and worrying about how the move “looks”, or how perfect the “form”. Moreover, the anxiety, even subconscious of trying to remember the Kata produces tension, and breaks the chain of relaxation and fluidity required to maximize combat potential.

Continuous movement is critical. Never assume a certain attack and defense will be effective. Never assume change of movement, direction, or method will not be required. Never assume that a certain sequence of movements will be successful. Making these assumptions can mean the difference between life and death. Continuous movement makes it more likely the opponent will not be able to recover, turning the tables and forcing them to react to you is more desirable than being behind the eight ball on movement. I call such principle “Counter Offensive Tactics”, but that is another article altogether.

Hit Me Don’t Quit Me.

Kata is almost necessarily training one in the tit-for-tat mentality, and two-step, three-step fragmented methods. Teaching that for every exact attack, there is a counter, and such counter can be executed in sequence is a reckless fallacy. Even predicting the response of the attacker in such sequence, and that your long sequence will counter is a big mistake. Some natural responses can be expected, like someone putting their hands up to protect the eyes and face, or flinching to protect the groin. But the natural response of the foregoing should not be relied upon, and certainly a long chain of methods should not be expected to hold up so well in a dynamic chaotic attack.

Many who train and rely on Kata are left to think the techniques will work the same way every time. This fails to take into account that every real world attack is different, small variables such as body position, angle of attack, timing, speed, and even the environment come into play--which requires the Martial Artist learn to apply their concepts in almost infinite variation. Manifestations of techniques are often on the fly, spontaneous, and not pre-planned tit-for-tat as Kata pretends.

The solution is to adopt the “Hit me don’t quite me” mentality. This means that once a concept is learned to a degree, a partner simply throws whatever attack he/she desires; a right hook, left hook, straight, upper-cut, knife edge, etc. The response should be continuous (even if the attack is effectively neutralized or the partner stops). Your partner should be encouraged to keep attacking, moving, and responding if possible. Practicing variations of the technique and concept is a must.


Break It Up

If you insist on learning a long kata, break it up into smaller pieces. Learn to transition seamlessly from one technique to the next without pause. Change up the order of the techniques, and if you have to start/stop often, you have learned too many moves, and strung more together than practical.

Create Your Own short “Kata”

Once you learn a technique, identify the principal behind it, get down the basic mechanics, the concept of the movement, and why it works. This should be done through the “hit me” trial and error. Of course adjust power and speed with your skill level. Tread carefully as it will take at least twice the time to undo poor reactions that you build in.

Very soon I will be uploading some “Flowing Motion Drills” highlighting the above principals. I will include the solo short drills that are continuous and can be dynamic, as well as a good handful of combat applications taught slowly, and with real-time speed and power. Check out my YouTube page soon for the free lessons, they should be up in a week or so--will update thread when available. https://www.youtube.com/user/FlowingCombat/videos?view=0


Regards,

Gary R.

 

[Cyriacus]

I have one word for you: Bunkai. With your first point out of the way, Bunkai. With your second point out of the way, Bunkai doesnt always work in defense and is at times teaching offense. With your third point out of the way, Bunkai wouldnt make sense if you randomly mixed half of its contents up. If you make your own kata, you can do whatever you want with it.

Im sure theres other reasons, but thats the one im picking since it covers everything you said.

 

[K-man]

Gary, I think that we will have to agree to disagree. Either you believe that there is a place for kata in a seld defence context or you don't. Forget for the moment any kata used within competition because that is nothing more than a choreographed routine.

A lot of what you say I agree with wholeheartedly but the overall thrust of your article is that kata has no place in 'modern' martial arts so self defence. For the small minority of karateka that have 'discovered' kata so much of what you say bears no resemblance to the use of kata that we now take for granted.

Window Dressing and Rank Fodder


Most involved in the Martial Arts and even those of you merely window shopping can picture students in fancy uniforms lined up doing a long sequence of moves. They copy off the other students in front of them, all while watching the teacher to carefully mimic their movement when he/she is in view. Rank in a majority of schools is largely dependent on the requirement of the performance of such forms or Kata. This emphasis on kata for rank gives the student a very false sense of security, and compromises the integrity of the arts.
So far so good. What you have described is exactly how the Japanese like to teach, at least the basic level.

I have walked into countless dojo’s across the globe and witnessed “Black Belts” lined up with very poor mechanics, and unable to spontaneously deviate from their Kata under any duress.

Poor mechanics is poor mechanics, but I have to ask .. why would you want to deviate from kata under duress? The point of drilling kata is so you won't deviate under duress.

If they spar, it becomes a dance, in which it looks not so much like the form or the techniques as practiced.

Sparring has absolutely nothing to do with kata. If sparring looks like a dance, it is a dance. The question I would like to ask, purely to understand where you are coming from, is .. what is the sparring distance. Is it like competition sparring or is it close range.

The arts need to be practiced until they bypass cognitive thought.

Agreed.

Trying to memorize long sequence of forms is counter-productive to such a goal.

Not necessarily so. 'Memorising' long sequences is different to 'practising them until they bypass cognitive thought'. Memorising a kata for grading is useless as a means of self defence. It is just a test of memory. However, many of the guys training in the early days of karate only learned one or two kata in a lifetime. Was it that they were just slow learners? No, it took years to learn how to use the kata in the way it was intended.

Then again, I have Erle Montaigue's book, "Dim-Mak's 12 Most Deadly Katas", and those kata are only a few moves. But they are moves in sequence.

It takes exponentially longer to get such muscle memory down, and prolongs the neuromuscular systems programming to execute the concepts in a dynamic real-time fashion.

Sorry, this does not mean anything to me.

While keeping the tradition alive so as not to lose the rich history of the Arts is important per se, Kata needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt in the context of developing the combat viability of such arts and manifesting a high level of skill in a real situation.

This brings us to our fundamental difference. We train kata, as bunkai, in a close combat setting every session. It may be in small segments but it is always in sequence and it always follows the kata. It is practised in such a way that should the technique fail, the next move in the kata gives you back the momentum.


The only real reason for Kata in the Self-defense context is so students can grasp the concept on which the technique turns.

I really can't understand what you are saying. What is "the concept on which the technique turns"?

This may be necessary to learn to adapt the concept to one’s own physical specifications. Thus, such mimicry is important for the very early stages of a student’s development, but beyond the beginner level of teaching the concepts, Kata has no place.

If what you are saying is right, it seems a total waste of time teaching kata at all, and in fact I know a number of schools that have removed kata from their syllabus.

No matter how many years one perfects such forms; it will still not adequately prepare someone for a fight.

Kata, by itself was never intended to "prepare someone to fight". Kata is just a means of preserving and transferring knowledge.

Rarely is a Kata’s movement actually used exactly as practiced in a form, and even more seldom is the exact sequence of moves used.

Once again, you are describing exactly what we do every training session.

Stop and Start: The Necessity of Continuous Movement


By nature, learning long forms tends to require the students stop and start their movements / techniques over and over again. This is a product of trying to put long sequences into memory, recalling the next move or series of moves, and worrying about how the move “looks”, or how perfect the “form”. Moreover, the anxiety, even subconscious of trying to remember the Kata produces tension, and breaks the chain of relaxation and fluidity required to maximize combat potential.

Learning the kata is just the first step. Worrying about how a move looks, or how perfect you are performing it, smacks of competition or grading, not reality. Getting to the stage that the next step in the kata flows naturally is the whole aim of performing the kata over and over. Achieving the relaxation and fluidity you describe is what the objective should be. That is why it takes so long to achieve. That is why it is so much easier to learn Boxing or Muay Thai.


Continuous movement is critical. Never assume a certain attack and defense will be effective. Never assume change of movement, direction, or method will not be required. Never assume that a certain sequence of movements will be successful. Making these assumptions can mean the difference between life and death.

Are you now saying that you can use kata but .. ? If so we have changed direction but let's look at it. Continuous movement is certainly desirable, and yes a certain attack may not always be effective. I purposefully left defence out of the previous sentence because by its very nature, defence cannot be within a kata or it would require an attack at a particular point. Defence can only occur in the opening move.

Continuous movement makes it more likely the opponent will not be able to recover, turning the tables and forcing them to react to you is more desirable than being behind the eight ball on movement. I call such principle “Counter Offensive Tactics”, but that is another article altogether.

No! No! No! Not another article. This article! This is what it is all about. In bunkai your very move creates the possibility of a predetermined response. Either they block or protect as you know they will or you knock their head off. What you have stated is what bunkai is all about. Mate, call it what you like. "Counter Offensive Tactics" is fine by me.

Hit Me Don’t Quit Me.


Kata is almost necessarily training one in the tit-for-tat mentality, and two-step, three-step fragmented methods. Teaching that for every exact attack, there is a counter, and such counter can be executed in sequence is a reckless fallacy.

Sorry Gary, where back on opposite sides. Kata ha no 'tit-for-tat'. Two step and three step stuff was constructed as sparring drill for tournament fighting. Nothing to do with reality. Almost all of that I have come across is done from 'sparring distance' and has as much in common with RBSD as a pelican has to a pumpkin.

The bunkai, as we train it, does not rely on a specific attack and I do not teach specific counters to any form of attack, even more importantly when weapons are involved. So we do not have counters either, although in a way you could say that perhaps our first attack is a counter in the strictest sense. We have a sequence of specific attacks that continue until the attacker is disabled, one move or five.The fact that we can do this very training session demonstrates that it is not 'reckless fallacy'. It is what you train. I have no problem that you don't train it, but keep an open mind to what is possible, even if you haven't seen it first hand.

Even predicting the response of the attacker in such sequence, and that your long sequence will counter is a big mistake.

The 'long' sequence is not going to eventuate. Either he blocks my elbow to his temple or he doesn't. Either he reacts to my eye gouge or he doesn't. In the application of bunkai you get the response you are seeking or he gets hit. If things go pear shaped, you reassess and re-enter the bunkai at the appropriate point.

Some natural responses can be expected, like someone putting their hands up to protect the eyes and face, or flinching to protect the groin.

Exactly! That's what you were saying in the previous para. "Counter Offensive Tactics", yes!

But the natural response of the foregoing should not be relied upon, and certainly a long chain of methods should not be expected to hold up so well in a dynamic chaotic attack.

OMG! This is like bipolar! One minute I'm on a high and the next I'm depressed!

If you are being subjected to a dynamic chaotic attack that you cannot reverse then I doubt any of your training will be of value, bunkai or no bunkai. The use of bunkai supposes you survive the initial attack in whatever way you will. You then start your attack. In a sparring scenario you have no idea what will be coming next, but in a real fight at close quarters it is the fact that you can control an attacker's limb or whatever, that makes it work. At the Jundokan the statement was made, once you engage you do not disengage until the fight is over.


Many who train and rely on Kata are left to think the techniques will work the same way every time. This fails to take into account that every real world attack is different, small variables such as body position, angle of attack, timing, speed, and even the environment come into play--which requires the Martial Artist learn to apply their concepts in almost infinite variation. Manifestations of techniques are often on the fly, spontaneous, and not pre-planned tit-for-tat as Kata pretends.

Bunkai allows for infinite variation within the normal range of movement. Your last sentence starts fine. In fact I would say 'always' rather than 'often'. That is why you would never enter a fight with a certain course of action in our mind. You react, then respond. It is not pre-planned and it is not tit-for-tat. Your response is pre planned, only by virtue of your entry point into the kata. It is not pre planned before the attack.



The solution is to adopt the “Hit me don’t quite me” mentality. This means that once a concept is learned to a degree, a partner simply throws whatever attack he/she desires; a right hook, left hook, straight, upper-cut, knife edge, etc. The response should be continuous (even if the attack is effectively neutralized or the partner stops). Your partner should be encouraged to keep attacking, moving, and responding if possible. Practicing variations of the technique and concept is a must.

Hooray! Gary, we're back on the same page. That is exactly what I am saying you should do! The difference is, I will use bunkai that is 'instinctive response' and you will use your 'instictive response' based on your training and experience. The fact that my training is kata based and your training is not doesn't make one of us better than the other, just different.

Break It Up


If you insist on learning a long kata, break it up into smaller pieces. Learn to transition seamlessly from one technique to the next without pause. Change up the order of the techniques, and if you have to start/stop often, you have learned too many moves, and strung more together than practical.

Gary, are you sure you haven't been watching my classes?

Create Your Own short “Kata”


Once you learn a technique, identify the principal behind it, get down the basic mechanics, the concept of the movement, and why it works. This should be done through the “hit me” trial and error. Of course adjust power and speed with your skill level. Tread carefully as it will take at least twice the time to undo poor reactions that you build in.

​Please, don't create your own short kata. Select a short sequence from a kata you know very well and create your own short bunkai, then pressure test. Pressure test everything and if necessary get some other competent martial artist to critique it. Apart from the 'own kata' bit we are in total agreement.

Very soon I will be uploading some “Flowing Motion Drills” highlighting the above principals. I will include the solo short drills that are continuous and can be dynamic, as well as a good handful of combat applications taught slowly, and with real-time speed and power. Check out my YouTube page soon for the free lessons, they should be up in a week or so--will update thread when available. https://www.youtube.com/user/Flowing.../videos?view=0

I'm looking forward to seeing it. :asian:

 

[jasonbrinn]

Hey Folks, wrote an article for my site; Thoughts,personal experiences, arguments welcome...

What’s Wrong With Kata?
By Gary L Romel, Esq.
www.FlowingCombat.net
​

Window Dressing and Rank Fodder

Most involved in the Martial Arts and even those of you merely window shopping can picture students in fancy uniforms lined up doing a long sequence of moves. They copy off the other students in front of them, all while watching the teacher to carefully mimic their movement when he/she is in view. Rank in a majority of schools is largely dependent on the requirement of the performance of such forms or Kata. This emphasis on kata for rank gives the student a very false sense of security, and compromises the integrity of the arts. I have walked into countless dojo’s across the globe and witnessed “Black Belts” lined up with very poor mechanics, and unable to spontaneously deviate from their Kata under any duress. If they spar, it becomes a dance, in which it looks not so much like the form or the techniques as practiced. The arts need to be practiced until they bypass cognitive thought. Trying to memorize long sequence of forms is counter-productive to such a goal. It takes exponentially longer to get such muscle memory down, and prolongs the neuromuscular systems programming to execute the concepts in a dynamic real-time fashion. While keeping the tradition alive so as not to lose the rich history of the Arts is important per se, Kata needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt in the context of developing the combat viability of such arts and manifesting a high level of skill in a real situation.

The only real reason for Kata in the Self-defense context is so students can grasp the concept on which the technique turns. This may be necessary to learn to adapt the concept to one’s own physical specifications. Thus, such mimicry is important for the very early stages of a student’s development, but beyond the beginner level of teaching the concepts, Kata has no place. No matter how many years one perfects such forms; it will still not adequately prepare someone for a fight. Rarely is a Kata’s movement actually used exactly as practiced in a form, and even more seldom is the exact sequence of moves used.

Stop and Start: The Necessity of Continuous Movement

By nature, learning long forms tends to require the students stop and start their movements / techniques over and over again. This is a product of trying to put long sequences into memory, recalling the next move or series of moves, and worrying about how the move “looks”, or how perfect the “form”. Moreover, the anxiety, even subconscious of trying to remember the Kata produces tension, and breaks the chain of relaxation and fluidity required to maximize combat potential.

Continuous movement is critical. Never assume a certain attack and defense will be effective. Never assume change of movement, direction, or method will not be required. Never assume that a certain sequence of movements will be successful. Making these assumptions can mean the difference between life and death. Continuous movement makes it more likely the opponent will not be able to recover, turning the tables and forcing them to react to you is more desirable than being behind the eight ball on movement. I call such principle “Counter Offensive Tactics”, but that is another article altogether.

Hit Me Don’t Quit Me.

Kata is almost necessarily training one in the tit-for-tat mentality, and two-step, three-step fragmented methods. Teaching that for every exact attack, there is a counter, and such counter can be executed in sequence is a reckless fallacy. Even predicting the response of the attacker in such sequence, and that your long sequence will counter is a big mistake. Some natural responses can be expected, like someone putting their hands up to protect the eyes and face, or flinching to protect the groin. But the natural response of the foregoing should not be relied upon, and certainly a long chain of methods should not be expected to hold up so well in a dynamic chaotic attack.

Many who train and rely on Kata are left to think the techniques will work the same way every time. This fails to take into account that every real world attack is different, small variables such as body position, angle of attack, timing, speed, and even the environment come into play--which requires the Martial Artist learn to apply their concepts in almost infinite variation. Manifestations of techniques are often on the fly, spontaneous, and not pre-planned tit-for-tat as Kata pretends.

The solution is to adopt the “Hit me don’t quite me” mentality. This means that once a concept is learned to a degree, a partner simply throws whatever attack he/she desires; a right hook, left hook, straight, upper-cut, knife edge, etc. The response should be continuous (even if the attack is effectively neutralized or the partner stops). Your partner should be encouraged to keep attacking, moving, and responding if possible. Practicing variations of the technique and concept is a must.


Break It Up

If you insist on learning a long kata, break it up into smaller pieces. Learn to transition seamlessly from one technique to the next without pause. Change up the order of the techniques, and if you have to start/stop often, you have learned too many moves, and strung more together than practical.

Create Your Own short “Kata”

Once you learn a technique, identify the principal behind it, get down the basic mechanics, the concept of the movement, and why it works. This should be done through the “hit me” trial and error. Of course adjust power and speed with your skill level. Tread carefully as it will take at least twice the time to undo poor reactions that you build in.

Very soon I will be uploading some “Flowing Motion Drills” highlighting the above principals. I will include the solo short drills that are continuous and can be dynamic, as well as a good handful of combat applications taught slowly, and with real-time speed and power. Check out my YouTube page soon for the free lessons, they should be up in a week or so--will update thread when available. https://www.youtube.com/user/FlowingCombat/videos?view=0


Regards,

Gary R.

Gary,

I know this is going to come across in a bad way and I'm sorry for that upfront. I appreciate you putting yourself and your ideas out - this is the way we all can improve. I also appreciate the time and detail of what you have done - this is needed if we are going to take ideas step by step and study them. With all of this said and with the utmost respect,

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE YOU!

In fact, I don't think you could be more wrong or rather you are exactly wrong. Nothing which you have written is based in any type of scientific study that I have ever found and THIS is what I do - not scientific study but the type of study you have done for this paper. I care about one thing and one thing only COMBAT effectiveness and efficiency. Please do me a favor and email me directly ([email protected]) I want to send you my book and if you get a chance I want you to look it over (at least the parts where I deal with the subject you have written about). The book is of course free, in fact it is free to anyone that wants it (I don't charge for my materials). You might be VERY surprised at the research I have done and studies I have found that pretty conclusively reject your entire premise.

More to the MARTIAL point though you should test this out. You might find that repeated forms/kata training produces better results than any amount of sparring (which I only assume is what you are advocating in its place).

As for most of your points about kata training in general, I find that they are not correct either - at least not in my experience. My kata training was VERY different than what you described (my 1st BB is in Karate of which I now have a 3rd dan after 15 years of training, not to mention additional work in Okinawan Kubudo, etc., etc.).

You also seem to make some kind of connection between rank and fighting ability which don't always go hand in hand and IMO rank should NEVER be an indicator of one's ability to fight.

I hope we can talk more as this subject is very close to my heart and you seem very genuine in your beliefs.

Jason Brinn

 

[seasoned]

What’s wrong with kata, “nothing“.


The problem lies in “understanding“. Somewhere along the line while kata evolved through time, the true meaning was lost. As we follow kata from China to Okinawa to Japan and eventually to the United States, it appears to have stayed intact. But, if you are merely looking at the obvious, what you can see with the naked eye, then you have missed everything.
The principles of martial arts do not lie in the techniques, the techniques are merely the by product of methodically practicing and understanding the principles of (1) structure (body alignment), (2) movement within the kata “between the techniques“ and (3) breath, with it’s relationship to power and balance.
Once we have a good understanding of structure, movement and breath, and how it relates to ourselves, we must address the patterns and the relationship they have within the kata to angles, directions and turns that represent any given kata.
Above and beyond structure, movement and breath is the essence of the teachings of combat, which are the angles, directions and turns that represent kata. One of the lost aspects of kata, is the realization that we are not fighting multiple opponents, but, just the perceived enemy that is directly in front of us. Once this has become a reality, we can begin to see a whole new broad spectrum of technique emerge, that gives those turns a new meaning, that involve throws and take downs. It would make no sense to face someone with punches and kicks, only to turn our back to them, to face another attacker.
No, to the contrary, that turn or directional change is significant to the understanding of advance techniques that are hidden in plain sight.


Many of your statements, Gary, are correct pertaining to the absurdity of kata in general. But, if only the most elementary observation is given to kata without a true understanding of all that was intended to be gathered from the kata, then the arts will remain lost, while in fact they are right there in front of us, for all to see.

 

[Jin Gang]

I think your article is correct in pointing out some of the ways that some people train kata in an ineffective way. But I feel like your premise is that this is the fault of the kata themselves, or is a necessary result of practicing kata, rather than people's misunderstanding of what they are for and how to train them.
Some of the training methods you propose are things which people would ideally be doing in addition to the kata anyway. I disagree that longer kata require students to stop and start their movements, it is the reverse, in fact. The longer a kata, the more opportunity to practice flowing and transitioning between various techniques. Ever see taijiquan, or other northern Chinese martial arts? They have very long forms which are nothing but "flow". Breaking down a kata and mixing up the movements, drilling techniques and combinations in a more realistic manner with partners, is something that everyone should be doing if self defense is the goal. It is not kata which stop someone from doing that, it is the misuse of kata in many modern martial art schools. Kata are useful in several ways: they are a catalogue of techniques, principles, and strategies. They are a study in combinations, flow, and transitions that have been found to be usefull (at least in the case of traditional kata). They are a way to practice alone as well as to encapsule the system of fighting. They are a jumping off point for exactly the type of training you are proposing. The practice of a kata should culminate in a pratitioner being able to perform any part of any kata in any order, in any direction, exchange movements and adapt them to different situations.

You are right that some people have unreasonable and unrealistic expectations about what a kata is and how it applies to self-defense, and do not often go in-depth enough into their study. This is not an inevitable result of practicing kata, but is evidence that many people did not receive complete understanding of the kata and the styles which use them, which is a systemic problem in western commercial martial arts descended from instructors who received lacking instruction in the first place.

So ultimately, it isn't "what's wrong with kata". It should be "what's wrong with your training?" or "Are you training your kata in a useful way?"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Form of Kata are just like the text books. You may get something useful out of it, or you may not. Without such text books, every style will have

- technique #1,
- technique #2,
- ...
- technique #99,
- technique #100.

It will be very difficult to teach and learn.

 

[GaryR]

I have one word for you: Bunkai. With your first point out of the way, Bunkai. With your second point out of the way, Bunkai doesn't always work in defense and is at times teaching offense. With your third point out of the way, Bunkai wouldn't make sense if you randomly mixed half of its contents up. If you make your own kata, you can do whatever you want with it.

I'm sure there's other reasons, but that's the one im picking since it covers everything you said.

You missed the point. As I understand it Bunkai means to pick apart. It's the term used in disecting applications from Kata,isolating specific techniques. Sure that is important--but not my point, I didn't mention Bunkai. If I did, I certainly would agree many applications are offensive. Perhaps you should give me your definition of Bunkai, and why it wouldnt make sense to mix it up, and what specifically wouldn't make sense to mix? Of course some methods wouldn't flow into others if randomly mixed, but I wasn't talking about random, I was talking about purposefully snipping kata into shorter drills/forms instead of doing long long sequences over and over.

Nice try though, thanks for the thorough analysis and experience sharing....

To all others, thank you for the thoughtful replies, even if we ultimately agree to disagree, makes for good discussion--will get to them when I have time!

G

 

[jasonbrinn]

You missed the point. As I understand it Bunkai means to pick apart. It's the term used in disecting applications from Kata,isolating specific techniques. Sure that is important--but not my point, I didn't mention Bunkai. If I did, I certainly would agree many applications are offensive. Perhaps you should give me your definition of Bunkai, and why it wouldnt make sense to mix it up, and what specifically wouldn't make sense to mix? Of course some methods wouldn't flow into others if randomly mixed, but I wasn't talking about random, I was talking about purposefully snipping kata into shorter drills/forms instead of doing long long sequences over and over.

Nice try though, thanks for the thorough analysis and experience sharing....

To all others, thank you for the thoughtful replies, even if we ultimately agree to disagree, makes for good discussion--will get to them when I have time!

G

this answer seems prearranged....lol

 

[Cyriacus]

You missed the point. As I understand it Bunkai means to pick apart. It's the term used in disecting applications from Kata,isolating specific techniques. Sure that is important--but not my point, I didn't mention Bunkai. If I did, I certainly would agree many applications are offensive. Perhaps you should give me your definition of Bunkai, and why it wouldnt make sense to mix it up, and what specifically wouldn't make sense to mix? Of course some methods wouldn't flow into others if randomly mixed, but I wasn't talking about random, I was talking about purposefully snipping kata into shorter drills/forms instead of doing long long sequences over and over.

Nice try though, thanks for the thorough analysis and experience sharing....

To all others, thank you for the thoughtful replies, even if we ultimately agree to disagree, makes for good discussion--will get to them when I have time!

G

I missed the point? Well, ok, lets see.
Bunkai is interpreting the application of Kata and/or formal movements or sequences of movements. Changing the Kata changes the application. Youre not isolating specific techniques, since plenty of Bunkai is built on a sequence of movements. You know, like the sequences in Kata?

You didnt mention Bunkai, but Bunkai is interpreting the formal movements FOUND IN KATA. As mentioned by others, if you dont train Kata in a way thats useful, of course it wont be useful to you. If you do, it will be.

If the applications are offensive, you arent playing tit for tat. Youre attacking with a sequence of movements that are highly adaptable regardless of what the other person is doing. Purposely snipping Kata into shorter drills is pretty much Bunkai. Taking sequences or movements of a formal nature, and interpreting their applications. In a drill. With a partner.

Hows that a nice try, when you yourself just verified what i was saying, whether you meant to or not? Seems pretty successful to me.

 

[K-man]

You missed the point. As I understand it Bunkai means to pick apart. It's the term used in disecting applications from Kata,isolating specific techniques.

There is no mention of isolating specific techniques in any literature I have seen.

Sure that is important--but not my point, I didn't mention Bunkai. If I did, I certainly would agree many applications are offensive. Perhaps you should give me your definition of Bunkai, and why it wouldnt make sense to mix it up, and what specifically wouldn't make sense to mix?

If you have a fruit cake, you have a fruit cake. If you pick out all the nuts and the raisins and mix them together you don't have a cake. If you put what's left into a blender, it isn't a cake either. You just have an unrecognisable mess. It might taste alright but it's not going to work for afternoon tea. Kata is the same, if you pick bits out of it or if you mix it up, then it's no longer the kata.

Of course some methods wouldn't flow into others if randomly mixed, but I wasn't talking about random, I was talking about purposefully snipping kata into shorter drills/forms instead of doing long long sequences over and over.

Taking a small portion is fine. to continue my analogy it's like taking a small slice of the cake. If we change the analogy to rainbow cake, we can now see the different layers.

Nice try though, thanks for the thorough analysis and experience sharing....

To all others, thank you for the thoughtful replies, even if we ultimately agree to disagree, makes for good discussion--will get to them when I have time!

G

I'm sorry Gary. You just lost me totally. Unless you are including bunkai in the practise of kata, kata has no meaning other than a sequence of techniques. So, in that context there can be nothing wrong with kata because kata has no meaning. In fact it would have no place at all in our training.

However, the mere fact that you didn't mention bunkai doesn't mean you can talk about kata and ignore it's application. That is about as sensible as analysing our solar system and ignoring the Sun. So, your failure to mention bunkai doesn't mean it is not central to the discussion.

You said ... "Kata is almost necessarily training one in the tit-for-tat mentality, and two-step, three-step fragmented methods. Teaching that for every exact attack, there is a counter, and such counter can be executed in sequence is a reckless fallacy". That is not kata in any shape or form. You are describing a very basic form of bunkai. If you believe that what you described is kata, I can begin to understand why your posts here are causing such emotion.

If we now look at what you wrote about bunkai, I believe that your definition is NQR. For the sake of expediency I will quote Wiki as it's as good a spot to start as any. However, before you jump to say that this is what you are saying, the Wiki definition here is talking about the most basic type of bunkai. Not the bunkai you could use in SD.

Bunkai, literally meaning "analysis" or "disassembly", is a term used in Japanese martial arts referring to the application of fighting techniques extracted from the moves of a "form" (kata).
Bunkai is usually performed with a partner or a group of partners which execute predefined attacks, and the student performing the kata responds with defenses, counterattacks, or other actions, based on a part of the kata. This allows the student in the middle to understand what the movements in kata are meant to accomplish. It may also illustrate how to improve technique by adjusting distances, time moves properly, and adapt a technique depending on the size of an opponent.
Some kata have another layer of application that is taught using an Oyo Bunkai, an "application of the kata in ways other than the standard bunkai." Different practitioners will learn or discover alternative applications, but the bunkai, like the kata, varies based on the style and the teacher.
A single kata may be broken into anywhere from a few to a few dozen applications, and the same sequence of kata moves may sometimes be interpreted in different ways resulting in several bunkai. Some martial arts require students to perform bunkai for promotion.
Bunkai can be obvious or elusive depending on the technique in question, the moves preceding and following it, and the individual practitioner. There are usually many stages of depth of comprehension of bunkai only reached through the passage of time. The terms toridai and himitsu are used to refer to techniques not readily seen to the casual observer and hidden techniques within kata. For example, in Gōjū-ryū karate, two-man kata training is used to reinforce bunkai and correct technique. If techniques in the kata are not performed correctly they will not be effective in two man training.

. :asian:

 

[seasoned]

It should be known that secret principles of GoJu-ryu exist in the kata.
-Miyagi Chojun, founder of Goju-Ryu

What was Miyagi talking about, what are these "secret principles" he discribes?

From the most casual observation of kata performance, one will note that none of the classical kata begin and end at the same point on the training floor. It would be fair to assume from this that the kata's floor pattern (embusen) is an accidental outcome of the techniques that are being demonstrated, and that the kata pattern was never meant to teach balance of movement or symmetry in the application of techniques. While this explanation for kata practice may be at least partially true for the patterns of the most modern katas, that are offen referred to as training kata in Goju-ryu it is certainly not the case for the classical kata.

The above is not meant to suggest that kata pattern's are completely arbitrary and without meaning. On the contrary, the karate techniques would largely be lost without the patterns.

For most present-day karate practitioners, the pattern has no real significance. If it is discussed at all, it is usually given no more explanation than as a kind of choreography to illustrate what one does when faced with multiple attackers.

If attacked from the right, turn and face the imaginary opponant, at that point turning to the left would indicate another attacker coming at you from another direction.

If this is the case, one would need to cross train in many different arts to fill the gaps that the kata and karate in general, leave out.
I would suggest that the kata that came out of China were all inclusive and contained all manner of technique to defeat an aggresser by all means possible.
It was once said to me that battles were won and lost in the transition from one technique to another. What I took this to mean was "patterns of kata" meant something and are as important as the visible techniques that everyone seems to focus on. It is within these patterns of movement that one will find a whole different art woven into the art itself.

It should be known that secret principles of GoJu-ryu exist in the kata.
-Miyagi Chojun, founder of Goju-Ryu

Food for thought............................ :asian:

 

[K-man]

Food for thought............................ :asian:

Actually, a feast fit for a King! :s294:

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Oddly enough I just put the following quote in another thread on forms in a different section before seeing this one:

I have a rather blunt view of kata/forms. They mean something. They are something that you are doing to someone. They aren't a set of dance steps. I've seen people do fantastically fast and flashy forms. I'll then ask them, "This part of the form...what did this movement mean"? I usually get that 'deer-in-the-headlights' look. They don't have a clue that it was a throw or a lock or a balance displacement or a cavity press. The may as well have trained at Aurthor Murray's dance studio. IMNSHO...they aren't doing martial arts, they are dancing.

There is NOTHING wrong with doing a kata fast and hard....as long as you know what it is you're doing. And I don't mean just the periphreal part. I am one of those teachers that teach forms have more meaning beyond just kicking and striking. I make no apology for that because when I look at a kata I see these elements within.

Forms today are taught FAR to quickly. In many schools you learn a new form in a month or so to get that new colored belt. Again, IMNSHO that is bogus training. It is a cookie-cutter mentaility and the student is the one that suffers for it. And to again be blunt, if the instructor doesn't know any better it is up to them to get some continuing education on the subject. I did. I can take just one 'basic' form such as Il Jang and make it last a year with the amount of information it includes. It has, beyond striking and kicking and movements mistaken as blocks, throws, locks, balance displacement etc. That one form could enhance a students training by degrees!

In the 'ole days' a kata took time to learn. Uechi Kanbun Sensei did just the OPENING movements of Sanchin kata for three months! Not the whole form...just the opening movements. That is how he learned all three of the kata (out of four) in the art of Pangainoon. It took him ten years to learn all three! But he LEARNED them. When he performed just one of them in the town square during a show-n-tell ceremony....no one followed him. They didn't want to lose face because of the depth of power and knowledge in which he performed the kata.

So yes, many do forms too fast and they learn too many of them. They are cookie-cutter versions of what they could be. What is better, knowing a couple of dozen forms that can be done zippy-split fast with an understanding that it is a collection of punches and kicks (many of which would not work in real life in the manner they are presented in the form) or one or two or three that you know inside out and can be used as strikes, kicks, locks, throws, presses etc.

Again, that is just me and my opinion YMMV

What is wrong with Kata? Nothing if it is understood correctly. For self-defense it is essential. Kata breaks down to Bunkai. Bunkai demonstrates a plethrora of strikes, kicks, locks, throws, balance displacement, cavity pressing etc. It shows the full range of responses along the force matrix i.e. responses against passive resistance up to and including responses against deadly force.

While keeping the tradition alive so as not to lose the rich history of the Arts is important per se, Kata needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt in the context of developing the combat viability of such arts and manifesting a high level of skill in a real situation.

With no offense intended, this shows me that you lack a full understanding of kata and its purpose. It goes well beyond tradition. If taught correctly, it is extremely viable for combative situations while under duress.

 

[GaryR]

Response to K-Man:


Thank you for the detailed response K-Man!! My response below in red;



Gary, I think that we will have to agree to disagree. Either you believe that there is a place for kata in a seld defence context or you don't. Forget for the moment any kata used within competition because that is nothing more than a choreographed routine.


My post was not as black and white as you said; “The only real reason for Kata in the Self-defense context is so students can grasp the concept on which the technique turns. This may be necessary to learn to adapt the concept to one’s own physical specifications. Thus, such mimicry is important for the very early stages of a student’s development, but beyond the beginner level of teaching the concepts, Kata has no place. No matter how many years one perfects such forms; it will still not adequately prepare someone for a fight”


Doing Kata for competition is counter-productive for all the reasons I listed. It puts the material in your body/mind in the wrong context—choreographed dance. Train like you fight, and fight like you train.

A lot of what you say I agree with wholeheartedly but the overall thrust of your article is that kata has no place in 'modern' martial arts so self defence. For the small minority of karateka that have 'discovered' kata so much of what you say bears no resemblance to the use of kata that we now take for granted.


Great, we agree on some things! A small minority..we at least agree on that. Nonetheless, stringing long movements together and using that as a large part of ones practice is mal-training for self defense, better to drill short snippets of it into muscle memory, and snippets that make sense, which may not be the original order, and may need to be adjusted to act as more of a workable template.


Window Dressing and Rank Fodder


Most involved in the Martial Arts and even those of you merely window shopping can picture students in fancy uniforms lined up doing a long sequence of moves. They copy off the other students in front of them, all while watching the teacher to carefully mimic their movement when he/she is in view. Rank in a majority of schools is largely dependent on the requirement of the performance of such forms or Kata. This emphasis on kata for rank gives the student a very false sense of security, and compromises the integrity of the arts.
So far so good. What you have described is exactly how the Japanese like to teach, at least the basic level.


Excellent

I have walked into countless dojo’s across the globe and witnessed “Black Belts” lined up with very poor mechanics, and unable to spontaneously deviate from their Kata under any duress.

Poor mechanics is poor mechanics, but I have to ask .. why would you want to deviate from kata under duress? The point of drilling kata is so you won't deviate under duress


If you think you can plan a move to work exacly as practice you are fooling yourself, in a perfect world yes—but as I said before This fails to take into account that every real world attack is different, small variables such as body position, angle of attack, timing, speed, and even the environment come into play--which requires the Martial Artist learn to apply their concepts (techniques) in almost infinite variation.

If they spar, it becomes a dance, in which it looks not so much like the form or the techniques as practiced.

Sparring has absolutely nothing to do with kata. If sparring looks like a dance, it is a dance. The question I would like to ask, purely to understand where you are coming from, is .. what is the sparring distance. Is it like competition sparring or is it close range.


You sort of demonstrated my point here. Train like you fight and fight like you train. Sparring should be used as a tool that leads to proper combative application. Thus, if Kata doesn't represent sparring, all the worse. To answer your question I was reffering to sparring in all ranges, I think distingushing between sparring for a competition and sparring close range is a false dichotomy, or at least it should be.

The arts need to be practiced until they bypass cognitive thought.

Agreed.


Excellent – the longer the sequence, the harder the bypass.

Trying to memorize long sequence of forms is counter-productive to such a goal.

Not necessarily so. 'Memorising' long sequences is different to 'practising them until they bypass cognitive thought'. Memorising a kata for grading is useless as a means of self defence. It is just a test of memory. However, many of the guys training in the early days of karate only learned one or two kata in a lifetime. Was it that they were just slow learners? No, it took years to learn how to use the kata in the way it was intended.


Your highlighted quote is exactly what the article is trying to get across. That was the training of yesteryear, not the norm now. I think it better for a quicker turn-around to not have a student memorize long forms, and then sparse applications on the way. Most people these days don't have the patience to train that way, and most schools wouldnt stay in buisness if they did that.

Then again, I have Erle Montaigue's book, "Dim-Mak's 12 Most Deadly Katas", and those kata are only a few moves. But they are moves in sequence.


Yup, good book, and good video as well. Only a few moves is exactly what I was talking about your own short kata, not the traidional long kata. I believe Erle created those for that exact purpose.

It takes exponentially longer to get such muscle memory down, and prolongs the neuromuscular systems programming to execute the concepts in a dynamic real-time fashion.

Sorry, this does not mean anything to me.
I'm sorry about that, perhaps there is some literature you can find on the topic.

While keeping the tradition alive so as not to lose the rich history of the Arts is important per se, Kata needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt in the context of developing the combat viability of such arts and manifesting a high level of skill in a real situation.

This brings us to our fundamental difference. We train kata, as bunkai, in a close combat setting every session. It may be in small segments but it is always in sequence and it always follows the kata. It is practised in such a way that should the technique fail, the next move in the kata gives you back the momentum.


Would you agree that a majority of schools do not do this? (I think you stated this above). Small segments is exactly what I meant when I said “break it up”. Always doing it in sequence is shorting yourself on combative training, Ill bet that your sequence will not work everytime, to every attackers sequence. Especially if your move doesnt pan out as planned, it is very likely the next move in the Kata will not cut it.


The only real reason for Kata in the Self-defense context is so students can grasp the concept on which the technique turns.

I really can't understand what you are saying. What is "the concept on which the technique turns"?


This is a very fact dependant statement and context. The concept could be—intercepting/blending on a horizontal plane whilst driving through your targed, with a certain flavor even. Clear as Mudd?

This may be necessary to learn to adapt the concept to one’s own physical specifications. Thus, such mimicry is important for the very early stages of a student’s development, but beyond the beginner level of teaching the concepts, Kata has no place.

If what you are saying is right, it seems a total waste of time teaching kata at all, and in fact I know a number of schools that have removed kata from their syllabus.


Yes, in the self-defense context, it can be a total waste—but as I said before, breaking it up and mixing it up in small segments drilled and applied over and over can be usefull, and can be included.

No matter how many years one perfects such forms; it will still not adequately prepare someone for a fight.

Kata, by itself was never intended to "prepare someone to fight". Kata is just a means of preserving and transferring knowledge.


You may get some disagreement on that from a large percentage of Martial Artists. I agree it is a means of preserving knowledge, but now we have video, e-books, and students need not perform and commit to long term memory such long sequences to preserve the arts. There is a cost/benefit to such traning, and depending on your goals, the long kata is to much of a detriment combativly.

Rarely is a Kata’s movement actually used exactly as practiced in a form, and even more seldom is the exact sequence of moves used.

Once again, you are describing exactly what we do every training session.
Do you do adrenal stress training—how many times do you have a complete adrenal dump while practing in your training sessions? I am talking real-world, full contact, much different than a very controled clinical situation, which the vast majority of schools that do teach applications use. Again using the exact sequence necessarily makes a lot of assumptions about a real conflict. I bet in one session I can demonstrate how many of your sequences will fail you –I've done so to dozens of instructors.


Stop and Start: The Necessity of Continuous Movement


By nature, learning long forms tends to require the students stop and start their movements / techniques over and over again. This is a product of trying to put long sequences into memory, recalling the next move or series of moves, and worrying about how the move “looks”, or how perfect the “form”. Moreover, the anxiety, even subconscious of trying to remember the Kata produces tension, and breaks the chain of relaxation and fluidity required to maximize combat potential.

Learning the kata is just the first step. Worrying about how a move looks, or how perfect you are performing it, smacks of competition or grading, not reality. Getting to the stage that the next step in the kata flows naturally is the whole aim of performing the kata over and over. Achieving the relaxation and fluidity you describe is what the objective should be. That is why it takes so long to achieve. That is why it is so much easier to learn Boxing or Muay Thai.


Yup, it does smack of grading, which was my first point. Many students focus on that grade. It does take a long time to achieve the above with a long kata, exactly my point. Such things can be better accomoplished, and at a much faster rate doing short motion drills/fewer moves strung together.


What do you suppose the percentage of Black Belts are that can beat a boxer in a real fight? I don't think its very good for the foregoing reasons.


Continuous movement is critical. Never assume a certain attack and defense will be effective. Never assume change of movement, direction, or method will not be required. Never assume that a certain sequence of movements will be successful. Making these assumptions can mean the difference between life and death.

Are you now saying that you can use kata but .. ? If so we have changed direction but let's look at it. Continuous movement is certainly desirable, and yes a certain attack may not always be effective. I purposefully left defence out of the previous sentence because by its very nature, defence cannot be within a kata or it would require an attack at a particular point. Defence can only occur in the opening move.


I said--''By nature, learning long forms tends to require the students stop and start their movements / techniques over and over again. This is a product of trying to put long sequences into memory”. The longer the kata/sequence the more difficult to achieve such continuous movement.


I think your defense point is a semantical argument. If in the middle of an altercation the person throws another punch, kick, knee, elbow, et al, you will be neutralizing that attack somehow, and that contitutes a “defense”.

Continuous movement makes it more likely the opponent will not be able to recover, turning the tables and forcing them to react to you is more desirable than being behind the eight ball on movement. I call such principle “Counter Offensive Tactics”, but that is another article altogether.

No! No! No! Not another article. This article! This is what it is all about. In bunkai your very move creates the possibility of a predetermined response. Either they block or protect as you know they will or you knock their head off. What you have stated is what bunkai is all about. Mate, call it what you like. "Counter Offensive Tactics" is fine by me.


Lol, ok. I did not mention Bunkai in the article. I do agree that sometimes your very move creates the possibility of a pretermined response, but such response cannot be counted on, just as the next move in your kata sequence cannot be counted on. There is more that goes into my term...but again, another long explaination.


Hit Me Don’t Quit Me.


Kata is almost necessarily training one in the tit-for-tat mentality, and two-step, three-step fragmented methods. Teaching that for every exact attack, there is a counter, and such counter can be executed in sequence is a reckless fallacy.

Sorry Gary, where back on opposite sides. Kata ha no 'tit-for-tat'. Two step and three step stuff was constructed as sparring drill for tournament fighting. Nothing to do with reality. Almost all of that I have come across is done from 'sparring distance' and has as much in common with RBSD as a pelican has to a pumpkin.


Ha, love the pelican analogy. Again, a sparring drill should be a bridge to reality, unfortunately in most cases it is not. But that has lead to most schools using and teaching kata in such a fashion. I'm betting if you demonstrated your kata I could point out some examples...maybe, maybe your version is very unique.

The bunkai, as we train it, does not rely on a specific attack and I do not teach specific counters to any form of attack, even more importantly when weapons are involved. So we do not have counters either, although in a way you could say that perhaps our first attack is a counter in the strictest sense. We have a sequence of specific attacks that continue until the attacker is disabled, one move or five.The fact that we can do this very training session demonstrates that it is not 'reckless fallacy'. It is what you train. I have no problem that you don't train it, but keep an open mind to what is possible, even if you haven't seen it first hand.


Great, but a kata DOES offer a specific move, and thus a counter. Thus your bunkai seems to differ from your kata movement, which is another topic, and demonstrates the point of my article.


I definitely agree that attacking until someone is disabled is the way to go, but again that predetermined sequence is assuming your attacks may not be foiled, and that the next attack will be situationlly appropriate. Specifically with a weapon, such as knife, failing in such a continuous attack can be fatal, if you plan to attack to the head and miss as he ducks/stabbes, your non-dynmaic sequence has failed.


If you don't actually fight full contact in your sessions you don't know that you “can”. If you don't train against fighters of numerous systems and numerous weapons full contact, then you don't know if you “can” use such predetermined sequence.


Even predicting the response of the attacker in such sequence, and that your long sequence will counter is a big mistake.

The 'long' sequence is not going to eventuate. Either he blocks my elbow to his temple or he doesn't. Either he reacts to my eye gouge or he doesn't. In the application of bunkai you get the response you are seeking or he gets hit. If things go pear shaped, you reassess and re-enter the bunkai at the appropriate point.


Having burned in such long kata makes it more difficult to “reassess”, you don't have time to reasess the next step. If you blocks your elbow there are infinate variations of such block, and what the opponent does next, if he gets hit, all the more probable your next attack will land, but not gauranteed, my point stands.

Some natural responses can be expected, like someone putting their hands up to protect the eyes and face, or flinching to protect the groin.

Exactly! That's what you were saying in the previous para. "Counter Offensive Tactics", yes!


Yup Yup.

But the natural response of the foregoing should not be relied upon, and certainly a long chain of methods should not be expected to hold up so well in a dynamic chaotic attack.

OMG! This is like bipolar! One minute I'm on a high and the next I'm depressed!


Lol, I think you missed the “should not be relied upon”, “CAN” be expected is not the same, as a gauranteed response!

If you are being subjected to a dynamic chaotic attack that you cannot reverse then I doubt any of your training will be of value, bunkai or no bunkai. The use of bunkai supposes you survive the initial attack in whatever way you will. You then start your attack. In a sparring scenario you have no idea what will be coming next, but in a real fight at close quarters it is the fact that you can control an attacker's limb or whatever, that makes it work. At the Jundokan the statement was made, once you engage you do not disengage until the fight is over.


I love the statement “once you engage you do not disengage until the fight is over”, great basic principal! Part of that is “taking the center from the first motion”(their balance), and not giving it back. Moving in to control limbs is essential, getting off the line, taking their balance, and simultaneously attacking until they are disabled..all part of the goal.


The point is that the next move in your sequence exacly as practed may not be adequate to reverse the attack at any stage.


Many who train and rely on Kata are left to think the techniques will work the same way every time. This fails to take into account that every real world attack is different, small variables such as body position, angle of attack, timing, speed, and even the environment come into play--which requires the Martial Artist learn to apply their concepts in almost infinite variation. Manifestations of techniques are often on the fly, spontaneous, and not pre-planned tit-for-tat as Kata pretends.

Bunkai allows for infinite variation within the normal range of movement. Your last sentence starts fine. In fact I would say 'always' rather than 'often'. That is why you would never enter a fight with a certain course of action in our mind. You react, then respond. It is not pre-planned and it is not tit-for-tat. Your response is pre planned, only by virtue of your entry point into the kata. It is not pre planned before the attack.


Well there you go, so in that sense, Bunkai is not kata, and practices infinate variations, this is not how kata is performed, which was the subject of my article. I basically agree with the rest of your statement here, with the caveot that the entry point of the kata may not work exactly as practiced, it seems via your bunkai point you would agree?



The solution is to adopt the “Hit me don’t quite me” mentality. This means that once a concept is learned to a degree, a partner simply throws whatever attack he/she desires; a right hook, left hook, straight, upper-cut, knife edge, etc. The response should be continuous (even if the attack is effectively neutralized or the partner stops). Your partner should be encouraged to keep attacking, moving, and responding if possible. Practicing variations of the technique and concept is a must.

Hooray! Gary, we're back on the same page. That is exactly what I am saying you should do! The difference is, I will use bunkai that is 'instinctive response' and you will use your 'instictive response' based on your training and experience. The fact that my training is kata based and your training is not doesn't make one of us better than the other, just different.



Great!! Different indeed, but would you agree mastering a few motions/drills/kata movements and drilling them until functional in such a variable and instinctive way is a faster route to combat viability? If so, then it follows that as one moves through the training a person who breaks it up more as I am advocating will also be at a much higher skill level combatively than someone who spents a lot of time on long sequences. After all, there is only so much time in the day!



Break It Up


If you insist on learning a long kata, break it up into smaller pieces. Learn to transition seamlessly from one technique to the next without pause. Change up the order of the techniques, and if you have to start/stop often, you have learned too many moves, and strung more together than practical.

Gary, are you sure you haven't been watching my classes?


Ha, yes, I am secretely taping you, I am not fond of the paint color on your walls however, could use some sprucing up.




Create Your Own short “Kata”


Once you learn a technique, identify the principal behind it, get down the basic mechanics, the concept of the movement, and why it works. This should be done through the “hit me” trial and error. Of course adjust power and speed with your skill level. Tread carefully as it will take at least twice the time to undo poor reactions that you build in.

​Please, don't create your own short kata. Select a short sequence from a kata you know very well and create your own short bunkai, then pressure test. Pressure test everything and if necessary get some other competent martial artist to critique it. Apart from the 'own kata' bit we are in total agreement.


Great! Call it Bunkai if you want, but your basicallyi advocating the same thing. The difference is that I am saying if you have to change from the Kata to the Bunkai to pressure test something effectively, then are wasting time doing the Kata, and being counter-productive.


Why not create your own? If a student understands how/why a method works, and wants vary those movements and mix them up, why not? I would'nt advocate a raw begginer do so, as I said it can have a place with such newbs to a degree. Such creativity helps a student instinctivly move and learn, so long as they pressure test it, and are supervised for basic mechanical / martial soundness I think it is very helpful.


Very soon I will be uploading some “Flowing Motion Drills” highlighting the above principals. I will include the solo short drills that are continuous and can be dynamic, as well as a good handful of combat applications taught slowly, and with real-time speed and power. Check out my YouTube page soon for the free lessons, they should be up in a week or so--will update thread when available. https://www.youtube.com/user/Flowing.../videos?view=0


I'm looking forward to seeing it.


Great, an intermediate motion drill clip and a clip with some application ideas will be up in the next day or so. Perhaps you could share some Kata and Bunkai? Showing the relation betweeen the two?


Again, thank you for the polite, detailed and thoughful response


Best,


Gary

 

[Tez3]

Gary that last post was very hard on the eyes and hard to read.

 

[GaryR]

Gary,

I know this is going to come across in a bad way and I'm sorry for that upfront. I appreciate you putting yourself and your ideas out - this is the way we all can improve. I also appreciate the time and detail of what you have done - this is needed if we are going to take ideas step by step and study them. With all of this said and with the utmost respect,

Thank you, respect to you as well, no worries about being blunt. Debate the ideas, don't attack the person, good motto to live by!

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE YOU!

In fact, I don't think you could be more wrong or rather you are exactly wrong. Nothing which you have written is based in any type of scientific study that I have ever found and THIS is what I do - not scientific study but the type of study you have done for this paper.

Well disagreement makes for good discussion, if we all agreed on everything life would be a bit more boring!


Yes, actually what I have written IS based on scientific study. I have consulted PHD's in neurophysiology, experts in kinesiology, etc., as well as scientific literature.


You admittedly have done no scientific study. So, no your study is different, likely based purely on your limited experience. If your experience is different, great, we can discuss that experience as well as the science if you don't mind going some of your own research and reading.


Here are some quotes that are key from a few sources: “The key to building good muscle memories is to focus on the quality of the quantity “


“...when you want to learn to do something well, break it into small parts and take each part slowly until you're able to do it very well. “


“When you repeat mistakes again and again, you build a muscle memory with those mistakes. That makes those mistakes even harder to overcome later. This is one reason why the saying "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" is often true. “


The last quote highlights the error of learning a long form. It is much more likely that you will build in more mistakes, which can be very difficult to unlearn as you attempt to break it up and apply it later.


“muscle memory comes from focusing on a single action or movement “
--http://sportsnscience.utah.edu/musclememory/


The above quotes highlights why doing long Kata is counter-productive to learning functional applications that one can react with dynamically. Shorter “flowing motion drills” that I teach are more digestable, and ingrain into the neuro pathways faster, and allow for better reactions to the stimuli of a real attack.


“The practice of martial arts, in fact, seeks in part to make martial movement instantaneous and reaction habitual. Practicing martial arts has as one of its goals supplanting conscious thought with physical reaction. This "habitual skilled remembering," in Connerton's terms, then "reenacts" aspects of the movement's "historical origin." That is, certain types of movement (or "bodily practice" to use Connerton's terms [72]) may evoke romantic or idealized aspects of the historical origin of movement forms.''


This romantic/idealized aspects are in part what I am referring too. The competition like kata is putting such things into the reaction system that are not realistic. The same is true with sport sparring. The physical reaction becomes tuned to a sporting outcome, not follow-through, or nasty injurious counter attacks.


http://lifehacker.com/5799234/how-muscle-memory-works-and-how-it-affects-your-success


Moreover, “The more possible moves an athlete can execute in a specific competitive situation, the more time it takes for an opponent to react successfully.” This relationship is known as Hick's law.


Thus, per Hicks law--Kata is giving you a string of possible moves to execute, diminishing your reaction time by the grouping process. (Schmidt, R.A. & Wrisberg, C.A. (2008). Motor learning and performance: A problem-based learning approach (4th ed.). Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics )


“The best way to improve your reflexes is to do a variety of reflex exercises, mixing them up so that the body and mind does not become to habituated to the same routine.” Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/2694244 .


Kata is such “habituated routine”, and thus shorter segments, and mixing it up helps improve reaction time / combat efficacy.


Long Kata also inhibits “Chunking”-- an odd word to associate with sports. According to the “athletic brain” researchers at AxonPotential.com, it's the process athletes use to mentally organize information so they can make good decisions when it counts. Athletes can develop chunking skills by repeating sport-specific drills and game-day scenarios during practice.

I care about one thing and one thing only COMBAT effectiveness and efficiency. Please do me a favor and email me directly ([email protected]) I want to send you my book and if you get a chance I want you to look it over (at least the parts where I deal with the subject you have written about). The book is of course free, in fact it is free to anyone that wants it (I don't charge for my materials). You might be VERY surprised at the research I have done and studies I have found that pretty conclusively reject your entire premise.

Excellent, well then you should be interested in the science and research (some above), behind what type of training produces combat effectiveness and efficiency—my views are well researched and backed by science and experience. I would be happy to read your book and compare notes, I will email you soon. You say your studies reject my premise, but you said above you did not do scientific study?
It is well established that smaller chunks of such physical activity repeated over and over and pressure tested increases reaction time. Hence by “break it up” mentality, and Flowing Motion drill training.
Nonetheless I will take a read and see for myself. But you really should do some actual research and seek out PHD experts, I assure you they will agree with me!

More to the MARTIAL point though you should test this out. You might find that repeated forms/kata training produces better results than any amount of sparring (which I only assume is what you are advocating in its place).

You assumption is somewhat false. I am advocating doing repeated forms, just VERY short forms that are fluid. These short forms should be repeated over and over, both very slow, and very explosively. Sparring incorrectly can lead to mal-training. Sparring is not really the learning phase of the methods, it's the testing phase, a phase that bridges to adrenal stress training, and near full contact training.

As for most of your points about kata training in general, I find that they are not correct either - at least not in my experience. My kata training was VERY different than what you described (my 1st BB is in Karate of which I now have a 3rd dan after 15 years of training, not to mention additional work in Okinawan Kubudo, etc., etc.).

Perhaps you could explain your Kata training? My generalization is regarding long katas, and how the focus on that type of training is inefficient and takes longer to teach combat viable material..which sometimes it never does in many cases.

You also seem to make some kind of connection between rank and fighting ability which don't always go hand in hand and IMO rank should NEVER be an indicator of one's ability to fight.

Well I think that is preposterous. Rank should be directly proportional to ones ability to apply their MARTIAL art. One's ability to defend themselves and actually USE the art in a fight should be inline with rank. It is a disgrace to see a blackbelt that cannot fight. That type of thinking reduces the MARTIAL arts to a dance, a set of movements that have no application or meaning. A martial artist devoid of fighting ability doesn't deserve to be called a martial artist, period. You couldn't be more wrong here, and that attitude is calamitous to our arts as a whole.

I hope we can talk more as this subject is very close to my heart and you seem very genuine in your beliefs.

Jason Brinn

Definitely, I look forward to seeing your book and discussing further. I am genuine and sincere, but I don't hold “beliefs” per se, I have facts, science, and empirical evidence to back my methods. For many Martial arts become like a religion, they have a tradition, an axiom, and then engage in apologetics in the arts defense. I like to avoid this mentality. Many arts have different types of value, hence there is no “true religion” in that sense—It's all about what works, and why.

I look forward to reading your book, maybe I'll learn something. I will mail you my new Flowing Motion Drills DVD when it is complete at no charge.

Best Regards,

Gary

 

[GaryR]

What’s wrong with kata, “nothing“.


The problem lies in “understanding“. Somewhere along the line while kata evolved through time, the true meaning was lost.

As we follow kata from China to Okinawa to Japan and eventually to the United States, it appears to have stayed intact.

I am confused, was the true meaning "lost", or did it stay "intact", your statement seems contradictory thus far...

But, if you are merely looking at the obvious, what you can see with the naked eye, then you have missed everything.

Sure, I agree in part here. There are obvious techniques that can be observed by the naked eye, and the more experienced one becomes, the more they tend to see. Many of the methods one can only experience and learn by feel. Undetectable to the naked eye. This is especially true in the arts I practice, Tai Chi, Bagua, touching hands with a method can open the students eyes via touch, connection, things that cannot be seen, hidden power and manipulation.

The principles of martial arts do not lie in the techniques, the techniques are merely the by product of methodically practicing and understanding the principles of (1) structure (body alignment), (2) movement within the kata “between the techniques“ and (3) breath, with it’s relationship to power and balance.

I couldn't agree more, I have been teaching and advocating this position for over a decade.

Once we have a good understanding of structure, movement and breath, and how it relates to ourselves, we must address the patterns and the relationship they have within the kata to angles, directions and turns that represent any given kata.

Sure, I agree, however, the shorter the "kata" the better, my last post briefly touched on the science behind this, see Hicks law. Many traditional Kata are too long, disjointed between methods, and the practice of doing such long chains makes application and reaction slower to produce and slower to learn. Possible--yes, but not the most effective way to train.

Above and beyond structure, movement and breath is the essence of the teachings of combat, which are the angles, directions and turns that represent kata. One of the lost aspects of kata, is the realization that we are not fighting multiple opponents, but, just the perceived enemy that is directly in front of us.

Visualizing an enemy while doing solo practice is key, I agree. But, visualizing multiple opponents is also helpful, as multiple opponent attacks DO happen, not but a few months ago I had two people attack me. What you visualize is very context/form dependent, however some methods can be used against one attacker or two, thus the utility of doing short forms explosively and dynamically. The drill I will link to shortly could be used against two attackers very easily, the demo is just a private single student at the house, later at the gym I can use two students to demonstrate this. Visualizing both scenarios is very useful. There is no reason to limit yourself.

Once this has become a reality, we can begin to see a whole new broad spectrum of technique emerge, that gives those turns a new meaning, that involve throws and take downs. It would make no sense to face someone with punches and kicks, only to turn our back to them, to face another attacker.

Sure, I agree, the motion drill I will link to can lead to throws, joint breaks/manipulations, as well as kicks, knees, elbows, etc. This is briefly touched on, throws were not completed due to room, when at gym in the upcoming weeks I can add to that, the incremental training method of my upcoming flowing motion DVD will demonstrate/teach this "new broad spectrum".

No, to the contrary, that turn or directional change is significant to the understanding of advance techniques that are hidden in plain sight.

As you will see in my flowing motion clip, I do change direction and turn. You are correct, it is significant, I don't see any point I made that this is countering....

Many of your statements, Gary, are correct pertaining to the absurdity of kata in general. But, if only the most elementary observation is given to kata without a true understanding of all that was intended to be gathered from the kata, then the arts will remain lost, while in fact they are right there in front of us, for all to see.

Well, at least we agree on something brother!True, generally the application of Kata from a lot of schools is absurd. True understanding comes from depth of practice. Countless times I have provided in-depth consultation to interpret forms by dozens of Masters/blackbels of other arts, Goju, ShotoKan, WingChun,etc.. On the fly, I can help them pick apart their Kata and get beyond such elementary observation, and even what they thought to be the "lost" understanding. The internal arts can provide a depth and insight into the external arts that you may not be able to contemplate. Much of it has to be hands on to see how the Kata is applied at a Master level. Even then, I don't think the Japanese arts have the depth, fluidity, explosive "soft power" to begin with at their best. It can certainly be added, and there is some cross-over, the body only moves so many ways!

In the end, we may just have to agree to disagree.

Best,

Gary

 

[GaryR]

Gary that last post was very hard on the eyes and hard to read.

Sorry brother, I changed it up on the following posts as you can see...

 

[seasoned]

I am confused, was the true meaning "lost", or did it stay "intact", your statement seems contradictory thus far...

Physical intact, meaning lost.