More Discussion on Kata

[Flying Crane]

Yet, it's very common to hear people say that. I think of Tai Chi as an extreme example, where ofte the form and maybe push hands are all that is taught, but in Karate I was often told that it's all kata, kata is all.

Yet I think that has to be understood as meaning that one must study them and extract things from them and practice those techniques, not that ll one should do is the kata.

I would give a great big "Bingo!" to that. My White Crane sifu teaches me mostly just forms, after he taught me the basic striking and movement techniques. He says it is all in the forms. All the application is there, ya just have to pull it out. I think it is important to take the movement from the kata and practice the application with a partner. I am in agreement, that simply doing nothing but kata is not going to develop skills to their fullest potential. Drilling application is essential.

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

I learned the same way, Becky. I agree that it makes it easier to learn all the moves that way. ... I think the question is more about if kata training has been too focused on the physical moves and not enough on the principles behind those movements.

Well as for that, I think it largely depends on what style you're in and more importantly, what school. My TKD school taught what every move in the form was for. I've seen schools that don't do that though.

 

[Navarre]

I've seen schools that don't do that though.

Sad but true. Sometimes we find we examine the kata in ever-deepening layers as time goes on.

For example, in our fifth kata there is a move where the opponent is grabbed by the wrist, pulled 360 degrees around our body (we spin as well), and then pull them back into a reverse punch with the opposite hand.

When I learned the kata, this is how the move was explained. This is a kata for mid-level.

At some point, after black belt I think, I started thinking that move didn't make any sense. How was I going to swing a person in a complete circle around my body without resistance let alone pull them back into an a punch? I largely wrote the kata off as impractical and dubbed it "the stupid kata".

Now however, over 10 years later, I again find myself examining the subtleties of this form. Now that I've had exposure to jujitsu and aikido, I am beginning to wonder if there was more to the move than I originally thought.

Using a wrist lock combined with the momentum of the punch and multiplied by my own rotation, could this technique have a realistic application? If so, it wasn't explained to me by my sensei who, by his own admission, didn't prefer the kata aspect of our system. Perhaps the technique has been slightly lost then in the interpretation.

I do however find it interesting that this kata is introduced at mid-level ranking...about the same time that we martial artists should begin evaluating our own techniques to understand the subtleties contained therein. Maybe I'm just a slow student. lol

But either way, the very fact that I continue to examine and re-examine a kata I learned in 1984 makes a powerful statement as to the true importance of the kata.

 

[arnisador]

I've had similar experiences. When I studied Uechi-ryu, I thought the techniques in the kata were impractical. Years later, having had more exposure to more arts (and long since having moved on to other arts as I had moved away from where I had been studying Uechi), I reconsidered. I got some Uechi-ryu videos--out of my own curiousity--and looked again at those kata, and saw much greater practicality. In fact, I'd now be interested to try the system again! I regret not appreciating it at the time. It's amazing what some time, experience, and knowledge can do for your perspective!

 

[FearlessFreep]

I think moves in kata are taught in the order of what you should be physically capable at that point. I think really understanding them takes a *long* time.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Sounds to me like you have learned, or figured out, some deeper applications to the movement. This is what I was getting at. I am willing to bet that you are one who sees kata practice as time well spent. But I also bet the reason for this is because you understand the applications.

That's one of the main reasons I like doing kata. Other then it devolops many skills, and can be used in a self defense situation with just a little looking. That, and, I really don't like sparring (anouther focus of training/tests). Although I am getting better. I still wont win any tournaments, but I am getting better.
And to the rest of you, many interesting posts and comments. I have a story that becky reminded me of (I think is kinda funny). I'm going to think about if it would be a good idea to post it, so you guys remind me and I'll let you know a little later what I decided on.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

 

[marlon]

I was going to start a new thread when i found this one. The purpose of learning bunkai is to teach us applications or to teach us that motion can be applied in different ways? Many i have met use thier taught knowledge of bunkai almost as another form within the form rather than using it to free themselves and learn to apply the motion of the body in differin ways. This second way is more conceptual and therefore helps to increase understanding and development and the other while expanding the student somewhat limits them to a clone of their teacher or founder of the system. Correct bunkai is application that makes sense and can be used effectively against a non compliant attacker.

Rspectfully,
Marlon

 

[Flying Crane]

The purpose of learning bunkai is to teach us applications or to teach us that motion can be applied in different ways?

I think both are correct. Effective application is the most obvious, but as you find different applications for the same movement, it should open your mind to the greater possibilities. The sky is, literally, the limit, if you are willing to roll up your sleeves, do some hard work and really analyze the kata. This is done without your instructor's input, so that you discover your own interpretations. Of course it is good if your instructor has already given you some applications because it helps to open your eyes to what you are looking for. But you need to go beyond what you have been shown and figure it out for yourself.

 

[marlon]

Perhaps the nature of life in the past caused teachers to teach only the students who were showing signs of 'getting it' on thier own and this is why they did taught the way they did. Many things were 'secret' out of fear of being killed literally

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[twayman]

It is interesting to read the posts on this thread. First off to those of you that have (or had) instructors that taught you the moves and no application, you missed a lot. Either your instructor was never shown the application or did not stay in the art long enough to learn the application. Either way I mean no disrespect it’s just sad.

Ok, I hear a lot of agreement on pulling the application from kata, which is very good. Think of a kata like an onion… the skin is the kata, pull back the skin and you still have the onion just a deeper level. Kata same way.

Keep in mind kata is a fairly new concept. Back in the day when the technique you learned would determine if you made it home the next day was needed rather quickly. No time to learn long structured kata. The technique that worked (theory good practical technique made it home, bad impractical technique died in the field) was passed on in order to pass on the lesions individual technique was later structured into kata. Now, the process is learning the application from the kata is just “getting back do the roots” of the technique. Also, keep in mind that the old masters only had a few kata that they would pass on but, knew them very well. A kata set can be seen as housing the teachings of an entire system and would take an entire life time to fully understand.

Things I find interesting are how many of the same technique turn up in different kata sets. If you see it again and again this should shed some light on what is being divulged. Also, there is more than one way to view a technique… those who say “it is this way only” are also missing the boat.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I used to think the Taeguek forms (Taekwondo),at least many of the early ones I know, looked really ugly because of all the short stances. They just didn't look cool or anything. Then I realized that in a lot of self-defense training you are working at a close range and lot of times to counter an attack you will be using short stances and short movements. That made the forms make a lot more sense