Kung Fu Wang

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The other 2 kata are Application kata ...

It will be great that if you can create a 30 moves "application form" that

- the 1st move can set up for the 2nd move,
- the 2nd move can set up for the 3rd move,
- ...
- the 29th move can set up for the 30th move.

It can be a great challenge for one's application knowledge.
 
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gpseymour

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In CMA, to use

- 1 leg to reverse side kick on your opponent's leading leg,
- 1 hand grab on his leading arm,
- 1 hand punch on his face,

is a very common technique. This kind of coordination will be needed greatly in the wrestling art.

WC_grab_kick.jpg
That combination can exist in JMA, though we'd be far more likely to use one strike or the other. The same sort of position could occur, though, if someone uses a strike as part of the initiation of some throws (tomoe nage comes to mind).
 
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gpseymour

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It will be great that if you can create a 30 moves "application form" that

- the 1st move can set up for the 2nd move,
- the 2nd move can set up for the 3rd move,
- ...
- the 29th move can set up for the 30th move.

It can be a great challenge for one's application knowledge.
With a primarily grappling style, that's not likely unless we vanish the attacker and install a new one just before finishing each technique. Once you throw them, they aren't set up for any other throws. What I've done is linked them in a way that each would be a response to a second attacker after the previous technique, with minimal transition between them. I could put one together that links from a failure point of one technique to a natural recovery in another technique.

Now stop giving me more ideas before I get carried away and start adding more kata!
 

Kung Fu Wang

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With a primarily grappling style, ... Once you throw them...
You can assume that your opponent will either escape out of your throw, or resist against your throw. For the grappling art, here is something that I can come up with.

1. foot sweep - You sweep your opponent's leading leg with your left leg, he lift his right leg and let you sweeping leg to pass below.
2. leg twist - You pull your left leg back, move it behind your right leg, use the right leg to twist on his left leg.
3. leg spring - You use right leg to spring his left leg back.
4. leg lift - You lift his right leg up.
5. inner edge sweep - You use inner edge foot sweep to sweep his right leg.
6. shin bite - You use right leg to bite onto his right leg.
7. leg block - You use right leg to block his right leg.
8. outer leg twist - You use right leg to twist on his right leg.
9. front cut - You use right leg to cut on his right leg.
10. leg twist - You use right leg to twist on his left leg again.
11. go back to 3.

I can only get 10 moves combo so far. To make it a 30 moves combo is not easy. It means that your opponent can escape and resist each and every throw that you have applied on him.
 
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gpseymour

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You can assume that your opponent will either escape out of your throw, or resist against your throw. For the grappling art, here is something that I can come up with.

1. foot sweep - You sweep your opponent's leading leg with your left leg, he lift his right leg and let you sweeping leg to pass below.
2. leg twist - You pull your left leg back, move it behind your right leg, use the right leg to twist on his left leg.
3. leg spring - You use right leg to spring his left leg back.
4. leg lift - You lift his right leg up.
5. inner edge sweep - You use inner edge foot sweep to sweep his right leg.
6. shin bite - You use right leg to bite onto his right leg.
7. leg block - You use right leg to block his right leg.
8. outer leg twist - You use right leg to twist on his right leg.
9. front cut - You use right leg to cut on his right leg.
10. leg twist - You use right leg to twist on his left leg again.
11. go back to 3.

I can only get 10 moves combo so far. To make it a 30 moves combo is not easy. It means that your opponent can escape and resist each and every throw that you have applied on him.
That would be the sequence I mentioned (failure point to recovery). We do those exercises once they have enough techniques, but I'm not sure I want to have kata that don't finish the techniques. Part of the value to me as a teacher is seeing where they understand/miss the principles, and those won't show up if they stop at a failure point.
 
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Each and every move can be a finish move. Each and every move can also be just a set up.
Not within a single grappling technique. Front Wrist Throw (kote gaeshi) isn't finished without finishing it. If the kata has them abandoning it to another technique, it removes the finish of that throw, and most of the principles that could be seen won't be.

EDITED FOR CLARITY.
 

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If you can sometimes in the future, do you think you can post video of said Katas being performed? I mostly have only seen striking Katas and most kata I know of have little to no grappling.
 
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If you can sometimes in the future, do you think you can post video of said Katas being performed? I mostly have only seen striking Katas and most kata I know of have little to no grappling.
I'm working on that. I want to put up a video for students to use. I don't want to put anything up just yet, though - I'm waiting to see if the first few students' progress shows me any changes I need to make in the kata. Every new training method has the chance of creating an unintended habit. Give me a few weeks to see how these folks do with the first Classical kata, and then I'll put something up and post a link here.

That'll also give me time to get more fluid with it. I've only ever worked it with students in sections (the way they learn it), and haven't gotten rid of all the mental pauses while I "watch" myself during the movements.
 

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I'm working on that. I want to put up a video for students to use. I don't want to put anything up just yet, though - I'm waiting to see if the first few students' progress shows me any changes I need to make in the kata. Every new training method has the chance of creating an unintended habit. Give me a few weeks to see how these folks do with the first Classical kata, and then I'll put something up and post a link here.

That'll also give me time to get more fluid with it. I've only ever worked it with students in sections (the way they learn it), and haven't gotten rid of all the mental pauses while I "watch" myself during the movements.
I'd like to see it too, they sound interesting.
 

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Does that deliver more total power than just a full kick? Or is the point that they'd have to block both, so one should connect? The concept seems so foreign to my training.
This was explained to me when I was a kenpo student. Perhaps this explanation is accurate, I don't know for sure, but it does seem reasonable and possible.

What I was told is that throwing the punch and kick simultaneously creates kind of a neural short-circuit which results in the enemy freeezing in place so you can land one or both of the strikes.

If a strike comes in low to the groin area, there is a natural flinch response to pull the hips back and create space, which folds your upper torso somewhat forward. If an attack comes in high to the face, there is a natural flinch response to lean away to create space.

When these attacks come in simultaneously, the flinch responses conflict with each other and result in a moment where the person will freeze in place and not react successfully to either attack.
 
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This was explained to me when I was a kenpo student. Perhaps this explanation is accurate, I don't know for sure, but it does seem reasonable and possible.

What I was told is that throwing the punch and kick simultaneously creates kind of a neural short-circuit which results in the enemy freeezing in place so you can land one or both of the strikes.

If a strike comes in low to the groin area, there is a natural flinch response to pull the hips back and create space, which folds your upper torso somewhat forward. If an attack comes in high to the face, there is a natural flinch response to lean away to create space.

When these attacks come in simultaneously, the flinch responses conflict with each other and result in a moment where the person will freeze in place and not react successfully to either attack.
That's reasonable, on its face, but it seems it would be a low-percentage response. Some folks might freeze, while some would react to one or the other of the strikes (equally useful, just a different response), and others might actually flinch away at an angle, like you would if a door was swinging at you (a single "strike" coming at all levels), or any other of myriad possibilities. And then we get into the trained responses, which would potentially include some that actually deal effectively with both.

Again, not saying it's not a useful technique, just not sure it's going to produce that "freeze" all that often.
 

Bill Mattocks

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This was explained to me when I was a kenpo student. Perhaps this explanation is accurate, I don't know for sure, but it does seem reasonable and possible.

What I was told is that throwing the punch and kick simultaneously creates kind of a neural short-circuit which results in the enemy freeezing in place so you can land one or both of the strikes.

If a strike comes in low to the groin area, there is a natural flinch response to pull the hips back and create space, which folds your upper torso somewhat forward. If an attack comes in high to the face, there is a natural flinch response to lean away to create space.

When these attacks come in simultaneously, the flinch responses conflict with each other and result in a moment where the person will freeze in place and not react successfully to either attack.


21 seconds in. Kata Kusanku Isshinryu. Punch kick combination.

There's nothing magical about it. It is difficult to block two attacks at once, but it's possible to throw two attacks at once. You could consider the backfist as a distracting move, but in reality, it is a 'real' attack as well.
 

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That's reasonable, on its face, but it seems it would be a low-percentage response. Some folks might freeze, while some would react to one or the other of the strikes (equally useful, just a different response), and others might actually flinch away at an angle, like you would if a door was swinging at you (a single "strike" coming at all levels), or any other of myriad possibilities. And then we get into the trained responses, which would potentially include some that actually deal effectively with both.

Again, not saying it's not a useful technique, just not sure it's going to produce that "freeze" all that often.

Anything that requires the opponent to react a certain way can always fail, or may need to have a back up plan.

We do a technique where you block a right hand jab or lunge punch, anything will work as long as it as not a hook punch. Anyway you block and parry it and push the attacking arm away, then uppercut the lower ribs or stomach (depending on their positioning).

Then knee the same spot you punched. This is supposed to make the drop a little making their neck more open for you to chop and bring them to a lower level hunched over.

Where you then chop the kidney as they are about to get back up. The thing is many people react differently to this, some get punched and then kneed and don't react by dropping a little lower due to the strike to the ribs or stomach.

If this happens this doesn't mean it won't work, it just means you have to do a different kind of chop, this type is more of a push downward on the back of their neck rather than a classical chop, this way you can do the rest of the move. As long as you drop your knees as you do either chop they "should" go down.

But that's the thing, "should" when I do this technique on the largest guy in the dojo I get it to work most of the time, however when I do on a particular smaller guy it doesn't work as well.

This is because everyone reacts to things differently. So going back to the double attack I think that may have the same factor of different people might react to it differently. Some people may just back away all together for example. This of course doesn't make it a bad technique but it is just something to consider.
 

Tony Dismukes

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That would be the sequence I mentioned (failure point to recovery). We do those exercises once they have enough techniques, but I'm not sure I want to have kata that don't finish the techniques. Part of the value to me as a teacher is seeing where they understand/miss the principles, and those won't show up if they stop at a failure point.
Agreed. The majority of counters to throws comes before the thrower executes the movement all the way through. If you are choreographing a sequence of techniques based on the idea that your opponent is countering your throws then either the movements need to be aborted and redirected at the moment the opponent counters each throw or else you have an unrealistic sequence where you go through the full motion as if you had completed the throw which means you are not in the correct position for the follow up move.

There are exceptions, such as the first example KFW gave of an attempted foot sweep that the opponent lifts his leg to avoid. In that case you can practice a realistic combination that transitions from a full foot sweep movement into the next technique. I think that only works for a small minority of techniques, though.
 
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Agreed. The majority of counters to throws comes before the thrower executes the movement all the way through. If you are choreographing a sequence of techniques based on the idea that your opponent is countering your throws then either the movements need to be aborted and redirected at the moment the opponent counters each throw or else you have an unrealistic sequence where you go through the full motion as if you had completed the throw which means you are not in the correct position for the follow up move.

There are exceptions, such as the first example KFW gave of an attempted foot sweep that the opponent lifts his leg to avoid. In that case you can practice a realistic combination that transitions from a full foot sweep movement into the next technique. I think that only works for a small minority of techniques, though.
And with the primary version of the leg sweep we use, their weight has to be set to that foot. If they could lift that foot to escape the sweep, it would be obvious the weight wasn't set properly long before the sweep, so even that one gets aborted.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The majority of counters to throws comes before the thrower executes the movement all the way through.
IMO, Besides "escape", there is "resist".

When your opponent resists against your force, you have to borrow his resistance force, reverse your own force, and throw him into the opposite direction.

For example, in one tournament match, I grabbed my opponent and started to run in circle. My opponent used his whole body weight to lean back to resist against my pulling. I let go my grip. Since his resistance force was too strong, his body flow back and landed on the ground. I won that round by not even execute a throw.

Another example,

- You push your opponent. He resists.
- You suddenly move to the side, pull his neck forward, and you can take him down almost effortless.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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And with the primary version of the leg sweep we use, their weight has to be set to that foot. If they could lift that foot to escape the sweep, it would be obvious the weight wasn't set properly long before the sweep, so even that one gets aborted.
This is the MA paradox.

1. A can use "foot sweep" to take down everybody on earth.
2. B can escape everybody's "foot sweep" on this planet.

The question is "What will happen when A meets B?"
 

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This is the MA paradox.

1. A can use "foot sweep" to take down everybody on earth.
2. B can escape everybody's "foot sweep" on this planet.

The question is "What will happen when A meets B?"

I train with person A. I call him The Custodian because he sweeps all day, every day. I swear the guy just throws punches and kicks to humor you right before you're back on the ground, looking up at him and asking yourself how the hell it happened again.

If you find person B, we can introduce them. It has to be even odds come betting time.
 
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