Is it hard to find a legitimate dojo of any kind?

[Kurwenal]

I am just now starting to get into martial arts, I have seen many videos online, and it’s always a room where everyone pairs up and is sparring with an appropriate partner. People aren’t going crazy trying to hurt each other, it’s light technical sparring where nobody gets hurt. This is the kind of training I have dreamed about for years, but so far I haven’t been finding it. I my Muay Thai school Ive been asking around and nobody spars. There is supposedly one sparring day per week in the evening, but I keep saying that can’t be right. I’ve learned in life that you cannot get good at anything only doing it once per week. It’s not much different from not doing it at all. If you only have motivation to do something once a week you should pick something else you’re more passionate about as a hobby.

The thing is I started searching other Muay Thai schools and they all seem to have the same thing. The classes are hitting the bags, and other drills that could easily be done at home. Is Muay Thai now become tae Kwon do or karate, yet another mcdojo art that phased out sparring? Where are these schools that have people, sparring working hard to get better every day? Is it just extremely rare to find a legitimate gym, maybe I should try boxing instead? Would that be any different

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf114 145]

So there's a couple different things to point out here.

First is, nowadays, most schools do light technical sparring. It also happens to be what's videod the most, because it's what people want to see.

Second is that if you just started, there will be lots of schools that (for legitimate reasons) may not have you spar at the beginning. You have to learn technique before sparring is really useful, and safe (opinions are debated on this but ultimately, it just means if that's the philosophy where you're going, you have to be patient).

Third is that you can absolutely get good at martial arts while sparring once a week. There is a huge difference between sparring once a week, and training once a week. You are spending the rest of the week learning the skills that you can practice implementing in sparring. Again, at least IMO, when you start off more time should be spent on technique rather than sparring, then as your technique improves that should start to shift.

Fourth is that "hitting the bags and other drills" should still be done at the gym (but can also be done at home). If you only do them at home, you're not getting feedback on how you're doing the drills, how you're striking, making sure your guard is up, your punch is correct, your footwork is how it should be, etc. It is incredibly obvious to anyone that's trained whether someone is self-trained or not, when they see them do bagwork.

Fifth is that I wouldn't call all TKD or karate mcdojos that phase out sparring, particularly if you haven't trained before. Plenty of those places do spar, and are worth checking out, rather than just limiting yourself to muay thai. You may even find that you like them more. Check out all the schools near you, regardless of style, and see which ones you feel fit you best. Most places will offer a free class/trial.

Finally, where do you live, and how far are you willing to travel? We may have someone here who has a recommendation for you.

 

[philwhite43 1]

I think it depends on where you live. Also you have to realize other students want different things than you. I teach more along the lines of TKD/Karate and we do a mix of everything (striking related). While sparring is a key component, not everyone loves it.

Its funny how every for profit martial arts school is now called a "mcdojo" simply because they don't suit the needs of someone. I mean if you do no touch knock outs I get it. And yes, I loved Black Belt magazine as a kid.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

And yes, I loved Black Belt magazine as a kid.

In the 60's and into the early 70's it was designed for the mature serious TMA practitioner and had minimal advertising. It was the only mag around. Even after other mags entered, BB mag was the gold standard. This changed IMO when it started to cater to the "doing MA cause it's cool" crowd.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

There is supposedly one sparring day per week in the evening,

- Form your own "fighting club".
- Spar 15 rounds daily.
- Try to use light sparring as your daily warm up.

 

[skribs113 133]

Different martial arts train in different ways. There's generally pros and cons to doing so.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu spars every class, and most gyms will have you at least do positional sparring within the first class or first few weeks. This art is very much based on feeling your opponents energy and balance and how to affect those. However, some schools have you wait a long time before sparring to avoid injury. There's a joke that the most dangerous person in the room is a white belt, because:

• White belts don't know where the danger points for themselves are and are most likely to miss tapping to a submission and get hurt
• White belts don't know the rules and are most likely to slam someone or try illegal techniques
• White belts (because they haven't learned the patience and timing yet) are most likely to rip submissions
• White belts haven't learned proper defenses and defensive techniques (such as how to properly fall) and are at risk of getting hurt from take-downs

Different schools have different approaches. My BJJ gym the approach is to get folks rolling early, but they're paired with upper belts or with the white belts that have the right temperament to work with newer folks.

On the other hand, in an art like Muay Thai, where there's a lot of striking, especially to the soft tissue in the legs and to the head, it's generally better to be more cautious with sparring. My gym (the same gym as the BJJ gym) has Muay Thai classes 5 days per week. They do technical sparring one day, and harder sparring another day, there's no sparring the other three days. The Muay Thai coach will then turn around and run a BJJ class that quite often ends up being 100% sparring. Even he sees the difference between arts.

Then you have arts like Taekwondo where sparring is generally lighter, people are more padded, and the target is more selective (for the most part, only the body is an allowed target). So in Taekwondo you have the opportunity to spar more frequently.

 

[Gyakuto114 123]

I think being introduced to some kind of sparring, even basic prearranged attacks and set counters, early on in your training is vital for learn distancing, covering distance (maai) and to start ingraining the very counterintuitive and subtle skill of shifting ‘off centre’ rather than the usual unproductive technique of moving back and forth. Sparring is like any other skill; the more strictly guided sparring is , the better you will progress. This is certainly the philosophy of the Wado Ryu Karate I practised where ‘free fighting’ was part of 6th Kyu, our system’s third grading and as little as nine months into one’s journey. So to have it excised from the early stages of training seems illogical for a fighting system.

I think the reason it is de-emphasised these days is because many newbies find free sparring unpleasant both physically and psychologically and dojo owners know its presence, early on in the curriculum, will likely increase the already high attrition rate within their club and reduce their income. Marching up and down punching and kicking the air is an important part of unarmed TMA but it can induce inappropriate ideas of competency that’ll have you coming back for that ‘fix’ again and again and will pay your teacher’s rent!

You really need to find a trading camp that does sparring early on but if it’s excision is endemic then that’ll be very difficult.

 

[millieIZ0]

The once-a-week sparring thing still feels off to me. I’m not asking for gym wars, just consistent light sparring so the techniques actually mean something. Otherwise it starts feeling like fitness class with shin guards.

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

It's not hard, no. Just because you're not going hell for leather every single session does NOT mean it's not a 'legitimate dojo'. Besides which, a lot of people have preconcieved ideas about what is or is not 'legitimate' or 'effective'. 9 times out of 10, all they need to do in order to disabuse them of these notions is to actually attend a class and find out how difficult it actually is, even if with their notions homebrewed from watching movies and casually watching sports don't lead them initially to suppose so.

 

[skribs113 133]

Besides which, a lot of people have preconcieved ideas about what is or is not 'legitimate' or 'effective'.

The other day in BJJ class, I hit a wristlock take-down I learned from Hapkido. I was talking to one of the BJJ Professors/Muay Thai coach about it later (who has a ton of respect for my Taekwondo experience but very little respect for Hapkido) and his attitude was, "Yeah, but who did you hit in on?"

He was probably trying to bait that I hit it on a blue belt (who is barely starting wristlocks) or a white belt/teenager (who aren't even allowed to do wristlocks yet). When I told him the name of one of the black belts at the gym, he didn't really know what to do with that.

I don't hit Hapkido techniques often in BJJ. I think they are the kind of technique that are lower percentage, but fit a certain strategy: defend an attack quickly and efficiently and be ready to deal with the next threat.

 

[Tony Dismukes112 9]

The once-a-week sparring thing still feels off to me. I’m not asking for gym wars, just consistent light sparring so the techniques actually mean something. Otherwise it starts feeling like fitness class with shin guards.

I've seen a number of successful pro fighters and pro fight gyms that only spar about once per week on average. The rest of the time goes towards pad work, partner drills, footwork drills, bag work, and conditioning. You absolutely can develop strong fighting ability with that schedule.

Note - this is for striking arts like Muay Thai and boxing. Grappling arts are much more likely to include daily sparring (at least positional sparring or some other form of live partnered practice.)

I personally don't favor having just one day of the week set aside for sparring, because if you have a student who can't make that particular day (Wednesday or whatever), then they're missing out.

I should also note that good pad training can overlap with the skills developed in sparring as can various forms of (non-sparring) partner training. There's a lot of skill development there beyond fitness.

Sparring is essential, but once per week can be totally workable.

 

[Tony Dismukes112 9]

The other day in BJJ class, I hit a wristlock take-down I learned from Hapkido. I was talking to one of the BJJ Professors/Muay Thai coach about it later (who has a ton of respect for my Taekwondo experience but very little respect for Hapkido) and his attitude was, "Yeah, but who did you hit in on?"

He was probably trying to bait that I hit it on a blue belt (who is barely starting wristlocks) or a white belt/teenager (who aren't even allowed to do wristlocks yet). When I told him the name of one of the black belts at the gym, he didn't really know what to do with that.

I don't hit Hapkido techniques often in BJJ. I think they are the kind of technique that are lower percentage, but fit a certain strategy: defend an attack quickly and efficiently and be ready to deal with the next threat.

Those kinds of techniques absolutely can work when the opportunity comes along, even at high levels. It's just that the opportunities don't come up that often, especially against good opponents. I think I've been caught with a standing wristlock maybe once in decades of sparring and caught other people just a few times.

I like having them in my arsenal even though I very rarely complete them. I can use the threat to provoke a reaction that I use for something else. But I don't usually teach them because the time and effort required to become competent is disproportionately high for the number of opportunities students will have to use them. I only have them in my repertoire because of the years I spent in arts that train them before I started BJJ.

I've seen one guy on YouTube who is a BJJ practitioner with a really strong Aikido background who manages to pull them off semi-regularly in sparring. (Can't remember the name offhand.) I think he's the only guy I've seen manage them with that level of frequency.

 

[Rich Parsons60 1]

I am just now starting to get into martial arts, I have seen many videos online, and it’s always a room where everyone pairs up and is sparring with an appropriate partner. People aren’t going crazy trying to hurt each other, it’s light technical sparring where nobody gets hurt. This is the kind of training I have dreamed about for years, but so far I haven’t been finding it. I my Muay Thai school Ive been asking around and nobody spars. There is supposedly one sparring day per week in the evening, but I keep saying that can’t be right. I’ve learned in life that you cannot get good at anything only doing it once per week. It’s not much different from not doing it at all. If you only have motivation to do something once a week you should pick something else you’re more passionate about as a hobby.

The thing is I started searching other Muay Thai schools and they all seem to have the same thing. The classes are hitting the bags, and other drills that could easily be done at home. Is Muay Thai now become tae Kwon do or karate, yet another mcdojo art that phased out sparring? Where are these schools that have people, sparring working hard to get better every day? Is it just extremely rare to find a legitimate gym, maybe I should try boxing instead? Would that be any different

Are you independently wealthy?
If you are an able to go full time, then you could hire and pay a coach a living wage to train the way you want too.

I teach FMAs and as others have mentioned we do not spar right away.
One needs to learn how to hang on to the weapon and to also learn to move and block.

e.g. I had a Filipino guy I worked with who had been training a couple of months. He mentioned to a family uncle that he was training in FMA. The uncle laughed and said it wasn't old school. "That was the only way to truly learn."
So he asked me the next class. I told him if he wanted old school we could do old school. I told everyone to sit on the mats. I then pretended to walk onto the mats to start classes. I pointed at the student who who asked for it. I then swung a forehand strike. I hit him in the shoulder. Not hard. Jsut a sting. He said I wasn't ready.
I asked are you ready now? He said yes. I hit him again. same exact spot. His block chased my stick on the way out. I didn't go ballistic. He was just that slow and out of time. He looked frustrated. I asked "Ready?" he said "yes" I swung and he went really fast and over committed to get the block there. So I aborted and hit him in the other shoulder with a backhand. This went on for a few minutes. He stopped and said when is the teaching going to happen?
I replied: "It began the moment I swung. You have not trained your blocks. So we cannot go past that. You have given back the content I have already taught you. You are disrespecting me."

He was surprised by this.

I continued. Are you ready? He said no.
I said then sit down. And pointed at another random student and asked them to come up. They said they did not want this.
I broke from "old school" back into my normal teaching methodology. I said in that methodology one learns only when they are ready. And until you learn to not get hit you will not learn more." A student asked What if he swung first. Then I would have blocked and countered. If he swung through like it was blade I would have leaned ore moved and then followed him. I demonstrated the concepts.

Sparring is not the end all.
It is important to check one self against others, including tournaments and such to see others outside of your school.

.

In the early 2000's(Some in the 90;s) , it averaged about one a week, and on the weeks none came in there would be those weeks that had people double up.
Someone would come in and want to test their skills.
They would want to spar or fight.
Those that said fight quickly learned a fight to mean was all was on the table including weapons against them. And I did not pull strikes.
Many strikers would come in and get upset when I would not want to use pads and punch their fists or elbow their fist.
.
The grapplers all wanted to do single or double or tackle takedowns.
I would say like in the street. If they said yes. I would then ask for a minute to change. And then come out in pants and shirt if I was not already wearing something like that. And I would have a trainer knife. A folder in my pocket. They would do their thing If they got me down and I pulled it that snap freaked them out. Many were so upset that they thought they were going to die. They walked in and asked to fight, They may have said spar but did not specify rules.
I spar and grapple with weapon.

I am not saying I was untouchable.
I am saying i always heard no weapons. No pulling shoes off and hitting people with them. No pulling belts off and strangling them.
No small joint locks for fingers, toes and wrists.

The MMA craze in the area I am in the early 2000's had people all running around wanting to fighter each other. Yet many would train with me when they said I can go to work the next day. Or I do not have to take six months off for a shoulder injury.

Each club and system is different. A glance through the windows or one class may not be enough.
Even training with the highest ranked person in the system may not be the best for the beginner. As the higher ranked wants to adjust and fine tune while lower ranked ones are happy to teach.

Look for a teacher / person you can learn from.
Yet find a school you are happy with.

And yes listen to all the posts here as most have good points. (* No absolutes as some posts could be added by the time I reply. *)

Good luck training.

.

 

[Rich Parsons60 1]

- Form your own "fighting club".
- Spar 15 rounds daily.
- Try to use light sparring as your daily warm up.

The First rule is avoidance in my teachings.
It applies here.
Avoiding talking about "Fight Club"
Which is one of the best romance movies I have ever seen

 

[Rich Parsons60 1]

So there's a couple different things to point out here.

First is, nowadays, most schools do light technical sparring. It also happens to be what's videod the most, because it's what people want to see.

Second is that if you just started, there will be lots of schools that (for legitimate reasons) may not have you spar at the beginning. You have to learn technique before sparring is really useful, and safe (opinions are debated on this but ultimately, it just means if that's the philosophy where you're going, you have to be patient).

Third is that you can absolutely get good at martial arts while sparring once a week. There is a huge difference between sparring once a week, and training once a week. You are spending the rest of the week learning the skills that you can practice implementing in sparring. Again, at least IMO, when you start off more time should be spent on technique rather than sparring, then as your technique improves that should start to shift.

Fourth is that "hitting the bags and other drills" should still be done at the gym (but can also be done at home). If you only do them at home, you're not getting feedback on how you're doing the drills, how you're striking, making sure your guard is up, your punch is correct, your footwork is how it should be, etc. It is incredibly obvious to anyone that's trained whether someone is self-trained or not, when they see them do bagwork.

Fifth is that I wouldn't call all TKD or karate mcdojos that phase out sparring, particularly if you haven't trained before. Plenty of those places do spar, and are worth checking out, rather than just limiting yourself to muay thai. You may even find that you like them more. Check out all the schools near you, regardless of style, and see which ones you feel fit you best. Most places will offer a free class/trial.

Finally, where do you live, and how far are you willing to travel? We may have someone here who has a recommendation for you.

I really like this post.
I wanted to quote it and say it should be posted at least twice here.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

Sparring is not the end all.
It is important to check one self against others, including tournaments and such to see others outside of your school.

These are both true. Sparring is a sport, and some schools are not competition oriented. Karate was not developed as a competitive sport (against similarly trained opponents) but as a method to defend against specific self-defense scenarios. This type of training can be as rough as sparring, so one can certainly do karate without sparring if the training (with and without partners) is rigorous.

Aside from the above, IMO sparring does give important benefits such as developing timing and testing one's mettle against varied opponents, trying various tactics where there's some stress and risk. This can be fun (or at least challenging) and many enjoy the experience. Personally, I think there's nothing wrong with some sparring, (not for white belts) though I favor about 10% of the training being sport oriented, a little more if the student wants to compete. Others see it differently and that's OK. (I was much into tournaments in my late teens and early 20's and enjoyed the excitement and atmosphere.)

But schools that are predominantly sparring oriented are not giving a complete authentic karate experience. This is fine for those looking at it simply as a competitive sport. It depends, as has been often said here, what you're looking for and know there is a difference between the two.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

you can absolutely get good at martial arts while sparring once a week.

Old CMA saying said if you don't spar/wrestle for 3 days, your hands and your legs will no longer be yours. I think 3 times a week should be the minimum (when you accumulate your sparring experience).

For a new student, 1 person plays offense and another person plays defense can be proper sparring format. Also, each round can emphasize different pre-defined skill (for example, the only score may be a kick to the body part).

 

[HighKick]

I've seen a number of successful pro fighters and pro fight gyms that only spar about once per week on average. The rest of the time goes towards pad work, partner drills, footwork drills, bag work, and conditioning. You absolutely can develop strong fighting ability with that schedule.

Note - this is for striking arts like Muay Thai and boxing. Grappling arts are much more likely to include daily sparring (at least positional sparring or some other form of live partnered practice.)

I personally don't favor having just one day of the week set aside for sparring, because if you have a student who can't make that particular day (Wednesday or whatever), then they're missing out.

I should also note that good pad training can overlap with the skills developed in sparring as can various forms of (non-sparring) partner training. There's a lot of skill development there beyond fitness.

Sparring is essential, but once per week can be totally workable.

Question; when you say 'fight', how hard are you going? If hard contact and even KO's are included, then that is a completely different ball of wax to me. A Lot of schools/gyms do Light sparring as a way to train, just like pad work, partner drills, etc...
Plus, you said pro fighters, so again, that is a very different dynamic from the average student to me. They are or have at some point taken their licks. Just IMO.

 

[Tony Dismukes112 9]

Question; when you say 'fight', how hard are you going? If hard contact and even KO's are included, then that is a completely different ball of wax to me. A Lot of schools/gyms do Light sparring as a way to train, just like pad work, partner drills, etc...
Plus, you said pro fighters, so again, that is a very different dynamic from the average student to me. They are or have at some point taken their licks. Just IMO.

When I refer to fighters and fight gyms, I’m referring to people who have actually competed in boxing, Muay Thai, or MMA, and the gyms that produce them. (Although those gyms may also have plenty of non-competitors.

As far as how hard they spar, that varies quite a bit both by individual and by gym. I’m personally of the belief that most sparring should be relatively light and technical. You can only take so many concussions before it adds up to permanent damage. Even for a pro fighter I don’t think it makes sense to use up your concussion budget in training before you ever get to your actual fights. (Of course there are pro fighters who disagree with me. But there are others who agree.)

That said, for anyone who is going to compete in full contact fighting, it is necessary to get some harder sparring than most casual hobbyists are looking for. I do recommend building solid defensive technique and some good body conditioning before ramping the intensity up too far.

 

[skribs113 133]

That said, for anyone who is going to compete in full contact fighting, it is necessary to get some harder sparring than most casual hobbyists are looking for. I do recommend building solid defensive technique and some good body conditioning before ramping the intensity up too far.

This is I think the risk analysis that most people need to do when deciding what martial art to train and/or how to train it.

Something like TKD may not have the same level of head defense, and is not likely (by itself) to prepare you for a fight where trained fighters are trying to knock you out, when compared to something like Muay Thai. However, by avoiding the hard sparring with head contact and the knockout sport that is competitive Muay Thai, you're not getting hit in the head in the meantime.

If you believe there is a very high likelihood that you will be fighting, whether in a sanctioned bout, a "street beef", or real combat/self-defense situations (i.e. soldier, ER, etc.) then the hard sparring makes a lot of sense. If you are training as a "just in case", you have to weigh the pros and cons of the dangers of hard sparring vs. the chance of needing that experience.