Depth of an Art

[Makalakumu]

When you think about an art that has "deep" concepts, what does that look like? Is your art a "deep" art?

When I think of a deep martial art, I think about Tai Chi, traditional jujutsu, or traditional karate. The material goes beyond just the physical technique, it branches into esoteric topics, various healing techniques or techniques that improve your health, and various cultural practices that are connected with the martial art.

In my experience, when I have trained in sportive arts, the depth was missing. Practice typically centered around the technique and winning in competition. In more traditional arts, I definitely have found more depth. In karate, for example, we look to the Bubishi as a source of depth and expand from there. In jujutsu, we work with kiai concepts that are certainly very interesting and enhance the techniques we practice.

What about you?

 

[seasoned]

Okinawan goju, with it's derivative Chinese roots, has a very unique way of manifesting power, while at the same time, maintaining fluidity. Many health benefits are also associated with kata Sanchin, with it's deep abdominal breathing.

 

[clfsean]

Straight TCMA for me.

It allows you to go as deep or as shallow as you want/need to fit your requirements. You can loose your mind in it (like so many that "feel the need" to) or just pound people. It's up to you.

 

[Makalakumu]

Okinawan goju, with it's derivative Chinese roots, has a very unique way of manifesting power, while at the same time, maintaining fluidity. Many health benefits are also associated with kata Sanchin, with it's deep abdominal breathing.

I have always been interested in Goju. It's the one of the styles of karate that I haven't studied much. I love the way all of the kata bolster each other, or so I've read. That's not something I have found in the systems of karate that I've studied.

 

[dancingalone]

I think a lot of this is obviously dependent on the teacher. I am a Okinawan Goju-ryu stylist first and I think it is fairly deep with elements of traps, locks, and take downs taught as standard drills even without considering kata bunkai. Kobudo is usually taught hand-in-hand and there are vestiges of iron body training and ki cultivation via the hard and soft kata sanchin and tensho. Tuite and kyusho are acknowledged parts of the system too albeit rarer.

So Goju-ryu karate is fantastic IMO. But I'll be the first to admit I've seen plenty of mediocre Goju in my lifetime. There are some Goju-ryu schools relatively near me (admittedly not Okinawan, they are USA or Nisei Goju) that primarily teach karate as a vehicle for point sparring tournaments.

It only takes 1 poor or misguided instructor for entire lines of 'shallow' martial arts to sprout from.

On the reverse side, I am creating a tae kwon do curriculum based on my various experiences in different martial arts. TKD is generally one of those arts that people scoff at, unfortunately. I hope when I am done that it will be considered a fairly complete curriculum worthy of being studied for a lifetime.

 

[dancingalone]

I have always been interested in Goju. It's the one of the styles of karate that I haven't studied much. I love the way all of the kata bolster each other, or so I've read. That's not something I have found in the systems of karate that I've studied.

The kata are interesting in that they don't necessarily repeat the same lessons if that makes sense. In the Shuri style kata, practicing the Pinan kata is great preparation for Kusanku, arguably one of the 'summit' or 'summarizing' kata of Shuri. There is more variance in Goju with the beginning and intermediate kata in relation to the master kata.

 

[MJS]

When you think about an art that has "deep" concepts, what does that look like? Is your art a "deep" art?

When I think of a deep martial art, I think about Tai Chi, traditional jujutsu, or traditional karate. The material goes beyond just the physical technique, it branches into esoteric topics, various healing techniques or techniques that improve your health, and various cultural practices that are connected with the martial art.

In my experience, when I have trained in sportive arts, the depth was missing. Practice typically centered around the technique and winning in competition. In more traditional arts, I definitely have found more depth. In karate, for example, we look to the Bubishi as a source of depth and expand from there. In jujutsu, we work with kiai concepts that are certainly very interesting and enhance the techniques we practice.

What about you?

There are alot of things in Kenpo that could be considered 'deep', however, and I'm using any art here, not just Kenpo, but I have to wonder how often things like this are actually taught to students. I mean, it seems to me that the 'typical' student that we see in many classes, is actually interested in stuff like this. I mean, IMO, the 'deeper' side of the arts are important, but is someone who is just taking up (insert art here) really interested in that 'deep' stuff, or are they just looking for an activity to do after work?

 

[Ken Morgan]

I find the “deeper” I travel with my iaido and jodo, the simpler it all really is.
Eliminate all excess movement, move from the hips, don’t use your strength and hit your target. To beginners it all looks so complicated, but the whole journey is about stripping down our movements and making them simple.

 

[seasoned]

I have always been interested in Goju. It's the one of the styles of karate that I haven't studied much. I love the way all of the kata bolster each other, or so I've read. That's not something I have found in the systems of karate that I've studied.

It is an all inclusive art Which involves close in fighting techniques that contain low kicks, powerful short hand strikes, coupled with locks and take downs. The kata are interrelated and build off of each other.

 

[Xue Sheng]

TCMA, just about any I have trained. What surprised me was that when I trained Sanda, police/military not sport, which is not traditional, I found a lot of depth there as well that was similar to what I have found in Taijiquan and Xingyiquan. And of late I have been breaking down Sil lum tao of Wing Chun and there to I am finding that there is a whole lot more to it than there appears to be on the surface

 

[Makalakumu]

When I trained in JKD, I found that the lack of rules and the personal nature of picking and choosing techniques to fit one's personal attributes, to be very deep. I don't get the same feeling from MMA as it's trained for sport. The same sort of thing that focuses any martial art on sport takes the depth out of it, IMO. It's not a bad thing, it is just the nature playing a game. Sports are games. On the other hand, I would love to train with someone who has worked out a philosophy consistent with his practice in MMA.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The deeper, more sensative and internal are needed as you grow older if you wish to be combat effective.

There are people in the harder, more head to head sportive arts that can still get it done in their middle and later stages of life but they are few as most who do these kind of arts are so beat up and crunchy in their later years. The ones that can keep it up seem to get softer in their perfromance of technique whereas the ones who try to bull through it like they were young are in troubel if their oppnent is stronger and faster.

My friend Steve Cotter is a former Full contact Kyushu champ and Hsing I stylist and he made a good statement once.

Even hard styles, when performed by a master appear soft.

This is why I like Combat/ Aiki Jujutsu and Pekiti Tarsia and Silat, there is a good mix of simple , brutal techniques and more advanced less force v force techniques as well, so as you grow older, you become softer and more efficient, which can be anything but soft to the one it is applied on.

My hernia in some ways has helped me cross into a new phase in my development, as I am more and more putting the more rock em sock em stuff behind me (I still teach it) and using a more Aiki/ Flowing and elusive approach and it's actually made me better durring attack drills and sparring. I've always been into such stuff but i could and would fall back into more GRRRR stuff here and there, now it's not an option I care to use.

 

[Supra Vijai]

The way we've always had it explained to us is that a martial art is never just the sum of it's techniques, it's the principles, the philosophies and the attitudes behind those techniques. Learning one technique and performing it based on the principles of several schools would therefore result in you "knowing" many techniques. There is a lot of emphasis on meditation, sensory perception (intuition), awareness during combat and after the fight is over and training with the appropriate mindset. So really you could apply these principles to any martial art and any sub style within that art and suddenly everything is deep. It really comes down to the student themselves and how open they are to looking beyond the base mechanics of whatever they are learning. In the words of Bruce Lee “http://en.thinkexist.com/quotation/all_fixed_set_patterns_are_incapable_of/262671.htmlAll fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability. The truth is outside of all fixed patterns."

Of course it could just be that Ninjutsu is a very esoteric art and Ninpo has a habit of becoming a way of life

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm, close there, Supra.

It's not that the martial art is not "just the sum of it's techniques", it's more that the art is not it's techniques. In fact, they are only the expression of what the art really is, which is a philosophical approach to combative methodologies. That then leads on to all of the other aspects, such as the principles, approaches, and technical methods. In terms of "learning one technique, and applying the principles of several schools would therefore result in you "knowing" many techniques", well that isn't really right either. More realistically, training principles and solid basics allows you to adapt techniques to any situation that you are required to.

Our art is very broad, and it should be noted that that is different to being deep (although I think the art is deep as well....). Depth, to me, means that the lessons taught through the art have many levels to them, you can always go back to an old technique, or lesson, and find new things to deepen your understanding of the art itself, and your place in it. For example, at the moment we are going through Kukishinden Ryu Hanbojutsu, looking at the Chuden no Gata, a series of relatively simple evasive and striking actions against long sword attacks. Some techniques are so simple as to be little more than a lifting strike to the wrist to disarm, however, after training these kata for nearly two decades now, I'm still finding little things in them that improve my understanding and performance of these "simple" kata, and hopefully that improves the way I teach them as well. As I've said, I could probably teach a 7 hour class on that single kata, and still have things I hadn't gotten to....

So, yes, the art we study has a very broad range to it (many weapons, many unarmed systems, many other aspects such as the meditation and intuition, and so on), but that doesn't make it "deep". The lessons held within, on the other hand, certainly do.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Depth, to me, means that the lessons taught through the art have many levels to them, you can always go back to an old technique, or lesson, and find new things to deepen your understanding of the art itself, and your place in it.

Thanks for the corrections there! Sensei with regards to depth I was going by the basis that you've mentioned several times during our study of Gyokko Ryu Taijutsu that each technique as a whole does one thing but within it, you are taught a whole range lessons including timing, angling, distance, mindset, awareness etc. I'm sure you've said it for years now but in recent times my earliest memory goes back to when we started Gyokko Ryu and were covering the 3 basic katas (Ichimonji, Hicho and Jumonji)

 

[Chris Parker]

Yep, that would be the "depth" aspect of it right there.