Training for competition vs. the street

[Flea]

I had another thought provoking moment this morning in practice. I've often had partners go too easy on me until I explained that I'm training for my rough neighborhood. This morning I had an interesting incident that drove it all home for me.

I was doing groundwork with someone (yes! I did groundwork!:whip1 and someone had me in a position I couldn't do much about. But I had enough wiggle room to grab his cuff, bring it close, and give his Achilles tendon a love-nip. It surprised him and he let go. "Hm," he said thoughtfully, "That would definitely lose you some points." He doesn't come very often and from out of state, so I gave him my spiel about training for survival. Since I'm small and cute (in other words a more attractive target,) I'll take any advantage I can. He bit back me a few minutes later, the sneaky bastard.

It's a no-brainer that one's goals will inform one's approach to training, but this morning's conversation really brought that home. I'm going to watch my classmates more closely to see their different approaches, although I think the main goal for most of them is having fun. Better still, as I go through my highly complex Big Life Transition I'll apply today's lesson to its many steps, steps within steps, steps upon steps, occasional backtracking and direction changes ...

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

This is a really weird coincidence, Flea. I grappled for the first time Friday night, and I ended up biting too. However, there was no foolishness about "losing points". We do whatever works.

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

My bite was significantly more assertive than a "love-nip", too.

 

[Chris Parker]

Very good experience, I would say. I've often spoken here (and elsewhere) about just this sort of difference, and hwo what you train (with the mindset you train with) is what will come out. Flea, you train with the mindset of "Well, this had better work for me, because I'm in a rough place, I'm a relatively easy target, I'm likely to be far smaller and less powerful than an attacker, so doing something to win a trophy just doesn't cut it". I'm very similar myself. Within our schools, such tactics are refered to as "survival tactics", and they are practiced often.

Jenny, well, "significantly more... than a love-nip"? Ha, I would love to have seen the look on the other guys face then!

 

[Tez3]

We grapple for MMA so definitely no biting while training in the club but it's always at the forefront of your mind that if you were doing it for real in an attack that there's a lot of things you can do. When reffing I have to watch out for fingers in eyes which aren't allowed but again is very easy to do in other circumstances. If you have a look at the rules for MMA, see what is illegal and you'll see all the techniques ideal for SD purposes, ie small joint manipulation, punching to back of head, kidneys, liver etc. There is a rule that no fingers are to be put in any orifice lol but again while not very savoury they are again good self defence techniques. Elbows in the face are allowed in pro rules and are a very good move for SD too as it's easier than trying to punch from the floor. Nipping and biting are good as is hair pulling even of eyebrows and sideburns!

 

[Flea]

Thanks Tez. I was paired up with this guy for a good while and gave him quite a run for his money. I totally pinned him for several minutes even though he has at least 40 pounds on me. Just a series of elbows to the side of the face so he couldn't turn his head, and I lay on him like a deadweight. At one point everyone just stopped and stared at us. Flea?... Flea is pinning this guy? Flea is being this fierce? No one could believe it. I also got out of a pin with a mock-rack. I'm not sure, but I think I distributed a couple zerberts too. (And yes, laughter is a valid weapon too. Just ask Ernest Scribbler.)

%-}

I knew it was lurking within me somewhere. It just took a while to dig it out. Hopefully it's here to stay.

 

[Ken Morgan]

I don't know.....it all sounds like foreplay to me.....

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

I also got out of a pin with a mock-rack.

That is my favorite target.

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

I don't know.....it all sounds like foreplay to me.....

It does feel really strange the first time someone mounts you. I had to totally disengage that part of my mind, which wasn't difficult. It just felt surreal.

I learned how to do an arm bar, a Kimura, a guillotine, and a figure 4. It was lots of fun!

 

[still learning]

Hello, Real world...NO rules...one must do "whatever" it takes to suvive!

competitions...will train you to behave with rules...and someone taps out on the streets...may come back to kill you..!

Happen to a Train Jujutsu expert..after his tournament...walking to his car in LV...attack by two men..he kick one guy and second was in a lock...tap out..the Jujustu expert...let go the lock only to get stab and Killed by the the other guy..!

Train for real...or you may make a mistake...Lessons do not always go second time...?

Aloha,

 

[Stuey]

Perhaps it almost seems too obvious, but it is a serious point. If we are in competition situations it is worth making the concious effort to associate separately this part of the art and surviving. If you like competing and living then maybe we should induce 2 separate states of mind when training. 1 being win, the other being live.

 

[MJS]

I had another thought provoking moment this morning in practice. I've often had partners go too easy on me until I explained that I'm training for my rough neighborhood. This morning I had an interesting incident that drove it all home for me.

I was doing groundwork with someone (yes! I did groundwork!:whip1 and someone had me in a position I couldn't do much about. But I had enough wiggle room to grab his cuff, bring it close, and give his Achilles tendon a love-nip. It surprised him and he let go. "Hm," he said thoughtfully, "That would definitely lose you some points." He doesn't come very often and from out of state, so I gave him my spiel about training for survival. Since I'm small and cute (in other words a more attractive target,) I'll take any advantage I can. He bit back me a few minutes later, the sneaky bastard.

It's a no-brainer that one's goals will inform one's approach to training, but this morning's conversation really brought that home. I'm going to watch my classmates more closely to see their different approaches, although I think the main goal for most of them is having fun. Better still, as I go through my highly complex Big Life Transition I'll apply today's lesson to its many steps, steps within steps, steps upon steps, occasional backtracking and direction changes ...

Nothing wrong with competing, but for myself, I'm gearing my training towards the street. Is it possible to do both? Sure, but unless the person can seperate the 2 on the fly, then its possible the old saying, "You fight like you train" will come into play.

Now, do I do the 'dirty' tricks every time I roll? No. As I said, I dont gear my training for comp. so IMO, even if I didn't always add those little things in, I dont believe it would hinder me in any way, should I find myself in a position in which I need to defend myself.

Nice thread.

 

[Flea]

Nothing wrong with competing, but for myself, I'm gearing my training towards the street.

Rarin!

For me, I have a heavy bias based on experience. I don't have a competitive bone in my body (is that a smart metaphor in this context?) but I've had icky experiences that may have turned out differently with some training. I guess I've been a little myopic about it; until yesterday, competition just seemed a little ... quaint. :uhyeah: From my perspective it still does, but I can see why people would enjoy it.

Nice thread.

You're welcome! Glad you enjoy it.

 

[jarrod]

way too much gets made about the line between sport & street. it is, as usual, all in how you train. if you compete & like to play for points, milk the clock, rely on sport-specific techniques & not fundamentals of the art, then yeah, it's not going to help much in self defense. but if you train to finish fights with solid, core skills & develop a never-give-up attitude that you have to have to excel at combat sports, then those skills & attributes will definitely help you.

jf

 

[Deaf Smith]

Flea,

Since I don't compete anymore (except at shooting and all the lead goes one way!!) then I can say I train for the street.

But, as long as you keep realistic with your competition training it will do no harm to your street skills. Might even make them better cause you train more. It's funny how a piece of plastic and brass can get people to train more in a month than otherwise they would do all year. All cause they want that trophy bad.

See we've had this competition .vs. street argument about shooting to at other boards. But some the best well know 'gun fighters', like Jim Cirillo, Bill Jordan, Charlie Askins, even Bryce, all shot competition. And most of the bull’s-eye and PPC style. And it didn't hurt their street skills. In fact it may very well have helped them.

For you see even a supposedly purely competition technique can be used on the street. Why? Cause on the street there are no rules!

And an interesting note, Jim Cirillo, who was in the NYPD stakeout squad and dozens of gunfights, wrote a list of virtues for those wishing to be in a high risk squad. One of the top ones on the list was being a competitor.

Deaf

 

[Brian King]

Flea,
WOW, wasn’t that long ago when grappling for even a couple of minutes was a traumatic event but you persevered, kept getting up from your defeats dusting yourself off and took victories as they came and kicked butt! A little victory here and a little victory there and now look at you, a hero and inspiration for all that are fighting their continuing battles at becoming whole, becoming what they are meant to become. You have been posting here at MT (and training Systema) for a little over a year, and have made huge progress…so far. The progress will continue as long as you do! Learn to completely enjoy the defeats as well as victories and keep up the work Flea! Happy belated anniversary LOL

Regards
Brian King

 

[Steve]

We grapple for MMA so definitely no biting while training in the club but it's always at the forefront of your mind that if you were doing it for real in an attack that there's a lot of things you can do. When reffing I have to watch out for fingers in eyes which aren't allowed but again is very easy to do in other circumstances. If you have a look at the rules for MMA, see what is illegal and you'll see all the techniques ideal for SD purposes, ie small joint manipulation, punching to back of head, kidneys, liver etc. There is a rule that no fingers are to be put in any orifice lol but again while not very savoury they are again good self defence techniques. Elbows in the face are allowed in pro rules and are a very good move for SD too as it's easier than trying to punch from the floor. Nipping and biting are good as is hair pulling even of eyebrows and sideburns!

It's funny, but if you think about self defense, I'm not sure that biting or elbows to the face are all that good. Think about the UFC and the elbows... honestly, I'd advocate that they be banned from the UFC precisely because they often result in a premature stoppage. You see guys who are "fine". They're ready to go except that they got cut and the doctor stops the fight. The cut isn't dangerous, nor is it affecting the fighter and "on the street" he'd likely continue fighting without a second thought. While it's possible, elbows on the ground aren't any more likely to end a fight than a punch, even if they have a strong chance of opening a cut.

Biting is another one. Unless you can take a finger or something equally damaging you're likely escalating the situation with the distinct possibility that you aren't improving your situation at all.

The above aren't written as questions, but to be clear, I don't train for self defense, per se, so I'm really throwing these out for discussion. What do you guys think?

 

[Flea]

Biting is another one. Unless you can take a finger or something equally damaging you're likely escalating the situation with the distinct possibility that you aren't improving your situation at all.

There is also the question of blood-borne diseases like hepatits and HIV. So biting is not a move to be done lightly, and preferably done through clothes whenever possible.

 

[Omar B]

way too much gets made about the line between sport & street. it is, as usual, all in how you train. if you compete & like to play for points, milk the clock, rely on sport-specific techniques & not fundamentals of the art, then yeah, it's not going to help much in self defense. but if you train to finish fights with solid, core skills & develop a never-give-up attitude that you have to have to excel at combat sports, then those skills & attributes will definitely help you.

jf

Not at all related to the topic but love the new avatar Jarrod! Is that Argentina? Looks like it to me.

 

[Tez3]

It's funny, but if you think about self defense, I'm not sure that biting or elbows to the face are all that good. Think about the UFC and the elbows... honestly, I'd advocate that they be banned from the UFC precisely because they often result in a premature stoppage. You see guys who are "fine". They're ready to go except that they got cut and the doctor stops the fight. The cut isn't dangerous, nor is it affecting the fighter and "on the street" he'd likely continue fighting without a second thought. While it's possible, elbows on the ground aren't any more likely to end a fight than a punch, even if they have a strong chance of opening a cut.

Biting is another one. Unless you can take a finger or something equally damaging you're likely escalating the situation with the distinct possibility that you aren't improving your situation at all.

The above aren't written as questions, but to be clear, I don't train for self defense, per se, so I'm really throwing these out for discussion. What do you guys think?

I think of things from a womans perpective, if I'm stuck underneath my putting elbows up and grinding them in an eye or even mouth helps. As a woman there are few single strikes that will ever stop a fight against a man so it has to be a collection of everything and anything, the important thing to me is to keep fighting, moving and hoping to get a chance to break away and get the hell out of there. I don't imagine I'm ever going to win a fight against a 16st man for example but what I'm aiming to do is cause damage and get out alive then......then come back with others and fill him in lol!
Biting leaves marks that can be matched to help catch the attacker so is worth doing even if it doesn't cause much damage, you just need to leave your teeth marks.

The problem with the UFC is thats it's not the worlds best promotion, the stopping of guys with cuts is usually a wrong decision by the ref or the management We've found that elbows rarely cause the cuts, the edges of the gloves do, Fairtex especially along with a couple of other brands. A good cutman can stop it enough for the fighter to carry on, the UFC makes decisions that wouldn't be made elsewhere.