Training for competition vs. the street

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Flea,

Since I don't compete anymore (except at shooting and all the lead goes one way!!) then I can say I train for the street.

But, as long as you keep realistic with your competition training it will do no harm to your street skills. Might even make them better cause you train more. It's funny how a piece of plastic and brass can get people to train more in a month than otherwise they would do all year. All cause they want that trophy bad.

See we've had this competition .vs. street argument about shooting to at other boards. But some the best well know 'gun fighters', like Jim Cirillo, Bill Jordan, Charlie Askins, even Bryce, all shot competition. And most of the bull’s-eye and PPC style. And it didn't hurt their street skills. In fact it may very well have helped them.

For you see even a supposedly purely competition technique can be used on the street. Why? Cause on the street there are no rules!

And an interesting note, Jim Cirillo, who was in the NYPD stakeout squad and dozens of gunfights, wrote a list of virtues for those wishing to be in a high risk squad. One of the top ones on the list was being a competitor.

Deaf

I used to work at a range and the guys who were my mentors allway said "Don't pick up what you see from the IPSIC people. You dont walk around with a Race gun and a holster that will lose your gun if jump or step wrong.

I would run their course with either a stock 1911, a HK P7M8 or a Browining Hi power, starting in pants carry with the extra mags in my pocket, lots of fun. I guess it depends on the rule set you use in Comps.

I like what I have seen of some of the other groups like IDPA.

As an aside that you will get a kick from.

My late mentor was a SOCOM type. He told of one time when he and a few other Operators (his guys and some Delta) went to a local comp.

After a few runs, they were asked to leave as they were just so much faster and accurate than anyone there.

Thsoe guys train all the time and 100% for combat, yet still could go in to a comp, play by rules and murder the comp.

 

[edgedweapons]

lol i hope his feet was clean.

i dont mind biting but, i prefer to eye gouge, hittomg the groin, and attack the throat before i make that my option when it comes to grappling.

 

[Nolerama]

I think technique and athleticism are great for learning to be functional at a MA.

I think you can get both at a competitive gym. Give me technique. Give me athleticism. Give me the right mindset to overcome adrenaline and enter an altercation with a problem-solving mindset, instead of a fear-based one.

Lots of SD-minded folks go over a ton of paranoid scenarios. They give you reasons (more like excuses) to not do something and want you to react suddenly, like a robot.

They train in a state of paranoia. They'll react in public in a state of paranoia, probably attracting assailants.

Oh yeah. It's Position before Submission (in any range, art, etc.) If your first option is to bite/eye gouge/etc, are you really in a good position to be fighting? Probably not.

Vote goes to competition, where I would be training with/against people that have a level of skill over the average joe on the street.

 

[sgtmac_46]

As opposed to what? If you knock someone out, or kick them in the cash and prizes, or poke their eye, they could still come back. I think this is a distinction without a difference. If you stop short of killing someone, there's the chance they could come back. And if you kill them, that only opens the door to a whole host of other problems. Arrest, retribution from friends, whatever.

It's very easy to say that competition doesn't prepare you aptly because it has rules. But it's a bit of a cop out.

Besides, the idea that your training is so ingrained that you won't be able to make necessary adaptations (stories about people returning a disarmed knife to a real attacker because they're used to that from training, etc.) don't sound credible to me. Nor does letting go because someone tapped in a real fight. Taps work because the guy with the advantage lets it work. If the guy with the advantage wanted to choke the guy unconcious, dislocate a limb, or worse, there's nothing preventing that.

I think we have to be really careful about characterizing one group of practitioners as brilliant tacticians and the other as automatons programmed by operant conditioning.


Stuart

Good points!

If you want to learn to drive a car, class room material is good, but you'll never really learn to put that practice to the test until you get behind the wheel. One cannot learn to ride a bicycle without getting on one, no matter how much practice they do.

The reality is that only in Martial Arts, do a large number of people have the census that practicing prepares one more for an activity than actually doing. If one wants to truly learn to fight, one needs to fight.

The naysayers claim that the fighting done isn't entirely realistic........but the truth is that it's almost always far more realistic than any fighting those naysayers themselves are doing. Realistic combat sports are the best unarmed physical combat simulator available to determine what works, sort of going to the bar every night and starting a fight.

What I really suspect many people's problems with combat sports are the fact that in their own martial styles they believe they can train to do something ABOUT violence, without actually having to be violent......and combat sports deflate a lot of that theory.


The reality is that the real difference between the ring and the street isn't in the techniques, or mostly even in the training (though one should train slightly different if one is solely concerned with the street, as training for sport rules is a waste of time and energy unless you are going to compete). The real difference between the ring and the street is the mindset. But the notion that one cannot function on the street if one trains for the ring is SILLY!

As i've mentioned before, it's like thinking Mario Andretti can't drive his family car, because he's trained so much in a race car.........it's not only silly, it's *** backwards, and the reality is that Mario Andretti likely has more skill driving that family car as a result of his racing experience than the average human being, or even the average police officer. That's why it's race car driver's that train those seeking high speed counter-terrorism driver training.........because they know how to operate a car at high speeds. One doesn't argue that because they usually operate under rules and on a track, that they know nothing about operating a car on a different shaped asphault surface.


My 2 cents, so take it for what it's worth.

 

[repz]

Self defense vs Sport, seems this post went down that road.

If a self defense artists using the same training method as sports arts (which is sparring, which gives liveness, randomness, and reisistance) and applies that to knife disarms (knife sparring) gun disarms, and multiple opponent sparring, then whatever benefit sports enthusiasts will be shared with the self defense artists. I dont know why people use that to make a point, I been to even tma dojos that do this now. Stress, adrenaline, liveness, randomness, and resistance, all build new attributes and help you cope with new feelings and sensations. What exactly can sports offer besides this if its already implement in knife sparring and team sparring for group fights in SD arts? This is effectively sport, or in better terms sparring but modified slightly to give roles. SD artists gain these same attributes but applied to the street.

As tho both the attacker (knifer, or team of opponents) and defender take their sparring seriously, then this will be the ultimate training for self defense. Because they put themselves in the role, and puts them in the situation where the knife take focus, or where escaping two people is the goal, and not pidgeon-holeing themselves into a one on one encounter as their sole basis of training. Whatever attributes are put into sports are born in this type of training for SD, but the focus, and yes... mindset changes.

There are people who drill knife disarms just as seriously, just as vicious, just as numerous, in the same training manner, equal to sports practicing a mount escape.

I dont think theres a question where the SD artist might have a difficulty fighting in one on one enviornment against someone whos trained to fight one on one, to modify his disarms and grapples to focus on the person and rules (which is an art to itself) and no longer the weapon and enviornment as they adjust to ignoring these factors, and they will probably get rocked fast to be honest, but I can safetly say that the sports fighter will have an equaly difficult time disarming or even reversing his thousands of hours of drills that has him dealing with the whole unarmed individual with no awarness to enviornment and other factors. I have seen SD artists get choked out or knocked out in seconds where I trained, and I seen Sports fighters get lacerations and neck wounds with knives in knife disarms. Because they had to instantly "switch" what they have been taught, or their schools didnt train in live patterns, or didnt create a good focus and importance in this type of training.

Sparring is the ultimate training plan, without question. If we you want to be good at one on one you have to fight that way, spar that way. That means giving up the mindset, the technique for weapons disarms (which i dont consider good submission moves they implement a form of enough pain to release the weapon, and some lead to straight dislocation then a tap out, thats just not needed for sports, and fracturing a finger or wrist under a trained grappler would probably still not warrent a victory) they are good looking moves for something that will be implemented chaotically to get the weapon away from you, once you give up what the majority of your art is, you focus on their game you can be successful. But you have to realize what you are giving up.

 

[Draven]

I think technique and athleticism are great for learning to be functional at a MA.

I think you can get both at a competitive gym. Give me technique. Give me athleticism. Give me the right mindset to overcome adrenaline and enter an altercation with a problem-solving mindset, instead of a fear-based one.

Lots of SD-minded folks go over a ton of paranoid scenarios. They give you reasons (more like excuses) to not do something and want you to react suddenly, like a robot.

They train in a state of paranoia. They'll react in public in a state of paranoia, probably attracting assailants.

Oh yeah. It's Position before Submission (in any range, art, etc.) If your first option is to bite/eye gouge/etc, are you really in a good position to be fighting? Probably not.

Vote goes to competition, where I would be training with/against people that have a level of skill over the average joe on the street.

Well let me ask you something, do you have a spare tire in your car? How about a blanket? Water? Maybe even some food? Lets make is simpler do you have a gas can? Does the gas can have gas in it?

Now my car had a case of MREs, a Case of water in bottles, extra blankets and yes my spare tire. Is all that there because I'm paranoid, god no. Its there because I'm prepared for something bad happening to me, I keep it there with a sense of being able to survive comfortably. Guess what when I went fishing with a few buddies of mine & we all got drunk and started racing along back country roads. Guess what, about 4am it got real cold beside the river and I had blankets. After the beer and McDonalds was gone I had MREs and cold water in my trunk. No I'm not paranoid I'm contious of the fact that bad things happen and those unprepared for the happening are the one's who suffer the hardest.

I teach MA with SD in mind, that means I'm looking at techniques but application of techniques under specific conditions (resisting opponents, ), you can't overcome addrinoline with a mindset you overcome it by being desentized to effects of it & I'm not sure what you by entering a situation as if you solving a problem and not a fear-based one. The human mind has logical contious thought patterns and emotions, & one effects the other. So I'm not sure what you mean...

As for scenario based training I find very few who do it who do so as paranoid fear mongering people in their mindset. I use scenario based drills to teach people the tactics used by muggers, rapists & gang members etc. Why because thats what you'll find in the real world. The military uses scenario based trained almost daily to desentise the soldiers & marines to experience of hearing gun fire, seeing things blow up or catch fire & so on. In order to overcome emotional stimulation you have to be exposed to said conditions of emotional stress to become desentized to it.

Now there are plenty of people whom seem to be obsessed with fear & use it as a marketting tool. Be afraid but come to me for salvation and I'll end your fear, but I only make you more afraid to get more business. Like a certain someone I'll not mention who lives in fear that homeless people are coming to steal his middle class life style lol...

Also bear in mind the average Joe isn't the average street punk and the average street punk is the dregs of the urban food chain.

 

[Steve Grody]

Flea; If self-defense is your goal, then always be looking for those quick ending targets and tactics (going for the eyes, throat, groin, finger breaks etc.) even when doing rule-oriented drills such as the groundwork you were talking about. While rolling, just note where you would be able to thumb an eye, grab that finger or elbow that throat.
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