Traditional Martial Arts Training Secrets

[chufeng]

JK,

well i believe that chambering your punch is a bad idea because if you train like that you may end up fighting like that and that may get yourself hurt.

Also Horse stance is not a very good fighting stance but as you said you use it for training to what end i do not know.

And you know HOW we train in what way? By your extensive sweaty workouts with us? NOT

As one who is a proponent of grappling, I would think you would love the horse-riding stance...but I see you have no idea HOW it is intended to be used...

BTW, one application of "lunge punch with full chamber of the opposite hand" is a classic Judo throw...

Before criticizing Yiliquan1's method of training...you've gotta dance with him.



:asian:
chufeng

 

[Jill666]

Originally posted by Randy Strausbaugh
Ironmind Enterprises sells kettlebell handles onto which you can load your plates, so you can make them as heavy as you want.

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

As if those things weren't heavy enough-

I'll take mine straight, thank you.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
well i believe that chambering your punch is a bad idea because if you train like that you may end up fighting like that and that may get yourself hurt.

Also Horse stance is not a very good fighting stance but as you said you use it for training to what end i do not know.

It's all mind-set.

It's pretty easy that even if you do spend a lot of time in a horse stance, doesn't mean you'll fight in a horse stance. If you read up on history, practically nobody fought in a horse stance, especially with the intent of kicking or something in the stance, dating waaayyyyy back.

It's not like that people just train with chambering the punch, or with a horse stance. It's that it is used to supplement what they are learning now. Anyone who has participated in sports knows that training things indirectly, as with the horse stance and jumping, and exaggeration of moves as in chambering the punch, does wonders. Exaggeration of a movement makes it so you get the principle and technique down, so you can use it almost perfectly no matter in what situation you are in. Most people who don't train with some exaggeration sometimes freeze up and forget about the small mechanical things that sometimes makes the technique work.

An example would be any running sport. When one learns proper running technique, whether it be for track, football, soccer, etc. exaggerates movements. Pumping the arms, making good contact with the foot, learning to exert maximum force, etc. It feels awkward at first, because anyone can run, but how many people can run with proper technique? You end up getting slower once you learn proper technique, but later, you'll end up being faster than you were before. Indirect training for runners would be by doing box jumps, squats, depth jumps, stairs, running down a decline, and a whole myriad of exercises.

 

[KennethKu]

If the situation is such that the opponent is already weakened or "softened" by your previous assault, then you can chamber and not be concerned about telegraphing your punch. Chamberred strikes have more power. Elementary physics at work there.

As for horse stance punching, there are people (eg. JKD & MuayThai people)who don't give a hoot about training that way, and they can punch just fine. OTOH, TKD and KT people as well as others who practice punching in horse stance, never seem to suffer as a result of such practice.

Therefore, arguing about these, is pointless.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Jill666
Of course- this is a training tool only, nobody is going to fight this way. :shrug: ...

Of course, that was just a reminder to the newbies. But it is pointless, I suppose. It wouldn't take anyone a nano second to find out that fighting that way does not pay.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I would but haven't seen any that are heavy enough.

Trust me, I think you would find the 16kg a decent starter, at least for a short time, and then bumping up a notch to the next size would do you just right.

They aren't lifted the same way as regular weights. There is a different approach to the utilization of strenght. Try to see if Joe could work it into the budget somehow to either purchase some of the books/videos, or to even get a seminar done (Pavel goes to Okinawa periodically to train the Marines). I'm not exactly a small guy, but incorporating KB workouts into training, supplementing my KB workout with BB lifts (they aren't mutually exclusive), I can pretty much smoke my own butt within the first 20 minutes - and I mean standing at the door to Vomit City, with another 30 minutes of workout to go...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Funny you should mention Joe........he asked me just last week to think of some things we might need that would fit into the buget......I suggested shin conditioning bi-level sand bag.........now I can add these two my X-mas list too!:boing2:

 

[Matt Stone]

The kettlebell handles from Ironmind look odd, and I have to say I am partial to the ones from Pavel's website, but they look like a good way to introduce KBs to Zama's gym... $95 for a pair of handles with collars, and all you need to add is the weight. Getting Pavel or another RKC instructor to come down for a seminar would be a good thing to add to Joe's eval at work...

Judo-kid -

I have trained for as long as I have, always training (formally) to withdraw my non-striking hand to my hip. However, when we are practicing the real application of the strikes, we are actually taught not to always withdraw it fully, and I have lately found myself not withdrawing at all (to the point that I feel I need to reemphasize the withdrawal in my practice).

Training kicks and punches from horse riding stance, a forward or back stance (or whatever other folks call them), etc., has never once impeded my ability to throw a technique from whatever position I find myself in...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Jill666]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Training kicks and punches from horse riding stance, a forward or back stance (or whatever other folks call them), etc., has never once impeded my ability to throw a technique from whatever position I find myself in...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Which may be part of the point- to train muscle memory to use stances that work, and to maximize the body's knowlege of balance adjustments from constant training.

I'm learning Ninpo stances and boy- are they different. If you thought the body wasn't meant to stay in kibo-dachi, try the outrageous $h!t Taijutsu does- it looks easy, but isn't. :erg: But it makes sense in the context of the movement from that stance.

 

[Matt Stone]

Jill666 -

Can you describe your experiences with the stances of taijutsu? When I was in Japan I watched a few classes here and there, and I have to be honest and say that what I saw and what I had demonstrated for me and on me by an alleged Bujinkan shodan didn't seem all that impressive. I am hoping that what I experienced was the exception, not the rule...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[J-kid]

why train in what you are not going to do, it just invites bad habbits.

Like chambering.

 

[yilisifu]

The training to which Yiliquan 1 was referring involves learning principles and ingraining them in oneself.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
why train in what you are not going to do, it just invites bad habbits.

Like chambering.

Why do NFL football players do ballet?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Why do NFL football players do ballet?

Uuuuh.....to get in touch with their feminine side???:rofl:

 

[MartialArtist]

Why do the Navy SEALs, the counter-terrorist Delta Force, the British SAS, the South Korean Elite Forces, most of Russia's infantry, etc. meditate under a waterfall, jump around running in snow without a shirt, and and throw knives? It surely has nothing to do with modern combat which is fast, precise tactical movements and sight acquisition with a rifle, not running around like you're a badass.

Why do bodybuilders, who are commonly known as the least graceful people on earth, do ballet?

Judo-kid, there is a difference between developing bad habits and using training tools. It's not like chambering is the main thing taught.

You know what? Did you know that a sprinter's training routine isn't mostly sprinting? Why is that, wouldn't that develop bad habbits?

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
why train in what you are not going to do, it just invites bad habbits.

Like chambering.

Again, Judo-kid, provide me specifics, but more than simply the chambering of a punch. That is simply insufficient to discount TMA training methods in favor of non-TMA methods, based on this one example alone...

Please provide me more details.

For example -

I think MMA training is inappropriate because it spends too much time dabbling in multiple areas, taking skills out of context with their strategic application and use. A kickboxer may have very effective kicking techniques, however those techniques are applied within a very specific and limited rules context. Taken out of that rules context, those same techniques become much less effective. I have heard it said that in Muay Thai, groin shots are considered dishonorable, and the rules of a MT bout specifically prohibit such strikes. Is MT, then, realistic in that context for "street" application? It could be said, then, that MT is not "street" effective, could it not? Similarly, the argument that BJJ/GJJ is a superior art has been countered with questions of its application against multiple opponents. I have yet to see that argument addressed, so it would seem that BJJ/GJJ is not as superior as it is claimed, since its effectiveness against multiple attackers has yet to be proven...

But these arguments are too simplistic, and are providing very isolated examples to discount the entire art's usefulness, or its benefits for training fighting techniques.

So, again, please provide me more than this simple example... I understand that your experience with TMA training is minor, and I'm not trying to ambush you or set you up for failure... I am just trying to draw information out of you, and lead you in the right direction for understanding of certain principles that have been in use for hundreds of years (seemingly effective enough to be transmitted over such a long period of time).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

If they didn't work, they wouldn't have survived this long...

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

For example -

I think MMA training is inappropriate because it spends too much time dabbling in multiple areas, taking skills out of context with their strategic application and use. A kickboxer may have very effective kicking techniques, however those techniques are applied within a very specific and limited rules context. Taken out of that rules context, those same techniques become much less effective. I have heard it said that in Muay Thai, groin shots are considered dishonorable, and the rules of a MT bout specifically prohibit such strikes. Is MT, then, realistic in that context for "street" application? It could be said, then, that MT is not "street" effective, could it not? Similarly, the argument that BJJ/GJJ is a superior art has been countered with questions of its application against multiple opponents. I have yet to see that argument addressed, so it would seem that BJJ/GJJ is not as superior as it is claimed, since its effectiveness against multiple attackers has yet to be proven...

But these arguments are too simplistic, and are providing very isolated examples to discount the entire art's usefulness, or its benefits for training fighting techniques.

So, again, please provide me more than this simple example... I understand that your experience with TMA training is minor, and I'm not trying to ambush you or set you up for failure... I am just trying to draw information out of you, and lead you in the right direction for understanding of certain principles that have been in use for hundreds of years (seemingly effective enough to be transmitted over such a long period of time).

Gambarimasu.
:asian: [/B]

To be fair, those limitations are present in the sport version of the respective arts. In their self-defence/combat version, the practitioners learn to compensate for those rule limitations.

BJJ never claims to be able to handle multiple attackers. BJJ, as practiced in self defence, does NOT advocate to always go to ground.

MT would sure as hell go for the groin and any other deadly targets, using any rules-breaking dirty technique in the book, when practiced in combat.

Needless to say, we need to compare sport version of TMA (Wushu?) vs sport version of non-TMA, and combat version of TMA vs combat version of non-TMA.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Again, Judo-kid, provide me specifics, but more than simply the chambering of a punch. That is simply insufficient to discount TMA training methods in favor of non-TMA methods, based on this one example alone...

Please provide me more details.

For example -

I think MMA training is inappropriate because it spends too much time dabbling in multiple areas, taking skills out of context with their strategic application and use. A kickboxer may have very effective kicking techniques, however those techniques are applied within a very specific and limited rules context. Taken out of that rules context, those same techniques become much less effective. I have heard it said that in Muay Thai, groin shots are considered dishonorable, and the rules of a MT bout specifically prohibit such strikes. Is MT, then, realistic in that context for "street" application? It could be said, then, that MT is not "street" effective, could it not? Similarly, the argument that BJJ/GJJ is a superior art has been countered with questions of its application against multiple opponents. I have yet to see that argument addressed, so it would seem that BJJ/GJJ is not as superior as it is claimed, since its effectiveness against multiple attackers has yet to be proven...

But these arguments are too simplistic, and are providing very isolated examples to discount the entire art's usefulness, or its benefits for training fighting techniques.

So, again, please provide me more than this simple example... I understand that your experience with TMA training is minor, and I'm not trying to ambush you or set you up for failure... I am just trying to draw information out of you, and lead you in the right direction for understanding of certain principles that have been in use for hundreds of years (seemingly effective enough to be transmitted over such a long period of time).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

The most realistic approach to “testing martial training” is the training that can be trained with the minimal rules, without favoritism to either fighter. The best that we have is mixed martial art and JKD.

If your NOT training full contact, then it needs to be something very close and worked up to full contact or else you really don’t know if your techniques really works in ALL situations.

The best technique is nothing if it isn’t practiced with an opponent that comes at you full speed without the limitations of the “classical mess.”

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
The most realistic approach to “testing martial training” is the training that can be trained with the minimal rules, without favoritism to either fighter. The best that we have is mixed martial art and JKD.

If your NOT training full contact, then it needs to be something very close and worked up to full contact or else you really don’t know if your techniques really works in ALL situations.

The best technique is nothing if it isn’t practiced with an opponent that comes at you full speed without the limitations of the “classical mess.”

Hmmmmm...

The "classical mess" was to fight until one fighter is KOed or gave up.