Traditional Martial Arts Training Secrets

[Matt Stone]

For all the traditionalists out there, let's put together a few explanations for the things the anti-traditionalists pick on so much...

For example -

Horse Riding Stance (or any other stance) training.

Withdrawing the non-striking hand to the hip when striking.

Forms use and keys to breakdown.

Et cetera.

Since I started this thread, I'll get the ball rolling...

Why do you withdraw the non-punching hand to the hip when punching/striking?

Firstly, withdrawing one hand while striking with the other increases the rotation of the hips and upper torso, thereby increasing the speed with which the strike travels, as well as increasing the distance the strike travels, and ultimately resulting in a more potent punch/strike.

Do you fight with one hand on your hip? Only if you have a lot of attitude! :lol:

Hell no you don't fight with your hand on your hip! That's like thinking that Taiji people fight in slow motion!

It is a training tool, no different than many basic methods used for developing a technique.

In forms, the withdrawing hand can be many different things - it can be as simple as increasing the power of the punch. It can be a grab, and elbow strike (with the withdrawing arm), a joint lock, etc. It just depends on the application and what attack you are dealing with...

I will list examples of the other categories listed above later, but first I'd like folks to add their info to the mix...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

High Kicks/Jump Kicks

Pretty easy to explain really, and modern science just makes it even better.

First off, athleticism. A combination of balance, speed, coordination, agility, flexibility, timing, and overall body control. You work those. It's like training with a weapon like a sword. Who carries a sword around? Unless you're Morpheus from the Matrix Reloaded, you don't carry a katana around the freeway. Same qualities. All instructors who want their students to be safe won't support the idea of using high kicks a lot if at all, and most people with experience will know when they could at least use them as in a huge oppourtunity. Otherwise...

Modern science. Just pick up on muscle fibers or plyometric training.

 

[Kingston]

i hope thats not the best you can come up with......


:ak47: :snipe: :stoplurk: :mp5: :apv: :shock::snipe2:

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Kingston
i hope thats not the best you can come up with......


:ak47: :snipe: :stoplurk: :mp5: :apv: :shock::snipe2:

May I ask what exactly you're trying to say?

 

[Bod]

It's like watching a boxer on a speed ball and expecting him to fight that way.

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1


...withdrawing one hand while striking with the other increases the rotation of the hips and upper torso, thereby increasing the speed with which the strike travels, as well as increasing the distance the strike travels, and ultimately resulting in a more potent punch/strike.

Hmm. Not Quite. You see, if you withdraw your hand to chamber in a relaxed manner, you will see that the shoulder of the withdrawing hand moves slightly forward. This forward movement of the shoulder is mirrored by the backward movement of the shoulder of the punching hand. Therefore, the withdraw to hip actually decreases the power of the punch. That is why traditional instructors have their students tighten their armpits when they punch- it counteracts the negative effect of the chamber. As for increasing the distance the strike travels, any strike will only travel from its point of origin to the point of focus. This is unaffected by whether you chamber your fist or scratch your ear.

You are totally right on about the other applications of the chambered fist though. There's more here than any of us were taught.

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

 

[Jill666]

I'm genuinely puzzled by this concept- never heard this before.

Can you either be more general or more specific about this???

:asian: Thanks

 

[chufeng]

Randy,

Excellent point...in fact we are instructed to keep the arm tucked in tight...

Jill, assume whatever stance you do when you throw a reverse punch...let it fly and pause at the end of the technique...are you actively pulling your chambered hand in tight to the body (tightening armpit)? If not have some apply pressure to your punching hand and see how stable you are...
Now try it with the chambered hand tight...again, have someone push against your extended fist...you should be more stable...
It's about body mechanics...
Now go throw a few at the heavy bag, you should notice the difference in power with just that simple correction.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Jill666]

Got it-

Yup, I do tighten my armpit- just never thought of it that way before.

After years of training the elbow strikes, chambering properly is fully ingrained.

What I'm gonna have to do now, of course, is throw a few loose ones at the heavy bag from the horse to prove the rule.

Now that leads pretty well into discussion of kiba-dachi or the horse stance. Aside from developing strength in the legs and providing amusement for instructors who like to talk for twenty minutes while keeping their students in a low horse
:angry:
what benefits do instructors here feel it provides?

 

[KennethKu]

If you withdraw to your hip, you are opening up your face to counterstrike.

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by Jill666


Now that leads pretty well into discussion of kiba-dachi or the horse stance. Aside from developing strength in the legs and providing amusement for instructors who like to talk for twenty minutes while keeping their students in a low horse
:angry:
what benefits do instructors here feel it provides?

The horse stance doesn't just strengthen the legs. By working out the large muscles (legs), intense horse stance training releases growth hormone (GH) which can aid in your strength development in other areas. And, if you don't contract the anal sphincter while horse stance training, you can also develop the piles! This last part is not generally considered to be a good thing, but I'm not one to cast judgement.:shrug:

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

 

[chufeng]

if you don't contract the anal sphincter while horse stance training, you can also develop the piles

Yamaguchi Gogen was reported to have to sit on a doughnut because of this.

If you withdraw to your hip, you are opening up your face to counterstrike

Imagine for a moment that I am pulling your arm to my hip with the withdrawing hand...

Now that leads pretty well into discussion of kiba-dachi or the horse stance

You would not throw punches from this stance, Jill...
Think about standing side by side with someone and working that right leg behind your opponent as you sink into a horse-riding stance...does that open up some possibilities?

Horse riding stance is often misunderstood because people assume it is a front-on stance...it isn't.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Jill666]

Originally posted by KennethKu
If you withdraw to your hip, you are opening up your face to counterstrike.

Of course- this is a training tool only, nobody is going to fight this way. :shrug:

Contracting the spincter occurs pretty naturally when tightening or rasing the pelvis. This focuses your energy and is simply more comfortable especially after the first ten minutes.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Randy Strausbaugh
Hmm. Not Quite. You see, if you withdraw your hand to chamber in a relaxed manner, you will see that the shoulder of the withdrawing hand moves slightly forward. This forward movement of the shoulder is mirrored by the backward movement of the shoulder of the punching hand. Therefore, the withdraw to hip actually decreases the power of the punch. That is why traditional instructors have their students tighten their armpits when they punch- it counteracts the negative effect of the chamber. As for increasing the distance the strike travels, any strike will only travel from its point of origin to the point of focus. This is unaffected by whether you chamber your fist or scratch your ear.

While this is all true, in Yiliquan, the punch comes not as a result of the movement of the arms, but from the pressing of the feet against the ground causing a rotation of the hips... It is the rotation of the hips that "causes" the punch to occur - the arm extending is simply a side effect of the actual "punch."

When the rotation is completed, the retracted hand's shoulder is withdrawn, and the withdrawal of the non-punching hand, coupled with the rotation of the hips, speeds up the punch.

At least, that's my understanding of it... I have never been told to tense my armpits, just to squeeze my arm back sharply while rotating my hips powerfully...

You are totally right on about the other applications of the chambered fist though. There's more here than any of us were taught.

And here is where the MMAists who poo-poo forms should jump in and cry foul, since as we all know, forms are no good for teaching you how to fight...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[sweeper]

Well the argument that forms can't teach you to fight has validity in as much as doing forms and nothing else won't teach you to fight, but that could be said of shadow boxing also.. Forms also probably aren't usefull if you don't know what you are doing.. in that case you probably don't even optimaly ingrain the movement into your "muscle memmory" as diffrent combat movements will have diffrent force emphasis, that is to say if you are trained to think that you are throwing punches from the hip, where as you should also be training to pull someone's arm in to your hip, genneraly the forward motion could be more agressive than nessisary and the reverse motion to lax.. But of course with proper instruction that should all be taken care of.

just a question though, doesn't everyone pull the oposite shoulder back when throwing a punch? I don't think I was ever told to but it seemed to be common sence..

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
While this is all true, in Yiliquan, the punch comes not as a result of the movement of the arms, but from the pressing of the feet against the ground causing a rotation of the hips... It is the rotation of the hips that "causes" the punch to occur - the arm extending is simply a side effect of the actual "punch."

This was part of my point, that the foot-knee-hip-waist-shoulder-elbow-wrist-fist connection is what facilitates the power of the punch. The withdrawl of the non-punching fist does not contribute to that power transfer and, if done incorrectly, can cause a slight diminishment of the punch's power.

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Randy Strausbaugh
The horse stance doesn't just strengthen the legs. By working out the large muscles (legs), intense horse stance training releases growth hormone (GH) which can aid in your strength development in other areas.

Human Growth Hormone response is released by intense exercise as opposed to low intensity exercise.
Stimulating the growth hormone from the anterior pituitary gland will:
1. increase protein synthesis
2. decrease carbohydrate utilization for energy
3. increase the mobolization of stored fat
4. promotoe cell division and cell proliferation

Of course amino acids such as arginine , ornithine, glycine and others are known to have GH properties as well.

Plain English……..any intense exercise will release GH, not just from working the legs.

Originally posted by Randy Strausbaugh
And, if you don't contract the anal sphincter while horse stance training, you can also develop the piles!

This is actually not true.
There is no need to “pucker up” when doing this stance.

The horse stance like all other stances are “transitional” stance and are never the end of a technique but are found moving from one stance into the next to complete are range of motion while applying the technique.
Many techniques I see go from natural stance to zenkutsu dachi to kibadachi to nekko ashidachi.

(Yiliquan1, there is some Naihanchi Shodan homework for you )

 

[yilisifu]

If you punch with one hand, the opposite shoulder will naturally draw back. It's a natural human movement.

The idea that drawing the non-punching fist back to the hip leaves your face exposed to attack is pointless. No matter WHERE you draw it back, you'll be exposed SOMEWHERE. Even if you grab with it, you're open SOMEWHERE. If you punch, you're creating an opening.
What counts is whether or not your punch is successful...Better to put 100% into it than only 80% because you don't want to expose yourself.

 

[chufeng]

This is actually not true.
There is no need to “pucker up” when doing this stance.

The horse stance like all other stances are “transitional” stance and are never the end of a technique but are found moving from one stance into the next to complete are range of motion while applying the technique.

True enough if your talking forms practice...
But I think that the point being made regarding "piles" was in reference to standing in the stance for a period of time. ESPECIALLY when combined with breathing exercises.


:asian:
chufeng

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Human Growth Hormone response is released by intense exercise as opposed to low intensity exercise.
Stimulating the growth hormone from the anterior pituitary gland will:
1. increase protein synthesis
2. decrease carbohydrate utilization for energy
3. increase the mobolization of stored fat
4. promotoe cell division and cell proliferation

Of course amino acids such as arginine , ornithine, glycine and others are known to have GH properties as well.

Plain English……..any intense exercise will release GH, not just from working the legs.

I'm not talking about low intensity exercise when referring to horse stance training. I'm talking about the training that makes your legs SCREAM. And, while any intense exercise will release GH, the large muscles of the legs, given sufficient effort, will release more. That's why lifters will say that heavy squats will help their bench, but heavy bench work doesn't do much for their squats.

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh