Tournament Judges and Judging

[VSanhodo]

Hi Folks

Several months ago I attended a local seminar to support a friend of mine who was bringing students to the tournament. The promoter was made an announcement asking for all black belts interested in judging to please come to the black belt meeting. Seems the only requirement to judge is to be a black belt. Now let me say Im not a big fan of open tournaments.
What I saw was some of the worst judging Ive ever seen. Ive said it before and I will say it again. Just because you are a black belt it does not make you a doctor, laywer nor does it make you qualified to judge.
I know there are groups out there which have specific requirments for a person to be a judge. Personally I would like to see more of this and less of the Wannabeeess and over night wonders judging.
I would like to hear your commments on this as well, All posts are of course welcome.

Thanks
San

 

[dubljay]

I can understand where you are coming from. I am not much for open tournaments, either. Think about what a black belt means (in most arts) and what exactly sparring (in any form) really is.

A black belt generally means a "mastery" of the basics. The person wearing the belt doesn’t know all there is to know, but by the same token, they have learned the core basics of their art. ** Again this is in most cases **

Sparring is nothing more than the exercise of basics in a real time scenario. How often at local tournaments, do you see flying triple kicks? Even at the brown and black belt levels, it is all basics. The better fighter is the one who has a better handle of the basics for their level.

So for a black belt to judge color belts is fine IMO. Black belts judging BB and up divisions may cause problems because they don’t have the experience that the fighters do, so how can they judge something they have yet to experience.

Just my opinion but I could be wrong.

-Josh

 

[Miles]

Refereeing and judging are acquired skills. In TKD (I am speaking Olympic style), there are day-long courses for referees and judges (the former call penalties but not points, the latter call points but not penalties) and you must practice these skills. To attend the course (at least the official courses recognized by the USAT/USTU), you must have attained black belt. There is a continuing educational system whereby you take the seminar, work sanctioned tournaments to upgrade your referee level.

I agree that having a competition helps one be a better referee, but I don't think it is absolutely necessary. One of my best friends is an awesome referee and she has never competed.

Miles

 

[MichiganTKD]

This is a problem Instructors within our organization have discussed. Too often, if you are a Dan holder and present at a tournament, you are pressed into service as a judge. This causes two problems. First, just because you are a black belt holder does not mean you are qualified to judge or referee, particularly free fighting. I've seen many instances of poor officiating from judges who just happen to be present at the tournament and did not have judging experience. This results in missed calls and bad feelings from competitors who should have won if the officiating were better. Second, if a black belt is there as a competitor, that is where his mind is. He's thinking about his competition, not about the match he's overseeing. Aside from not having proper concentration, he's going to have to leave soon to make his ring. Then what?
My solutions?

1. You cannot compete and referee at the same tournament.
2. Establish a pool of Dan holders who are not planning to compete and will be there that day to officiate.
3. Develop a pool of qualified judges and referees who have been trained and know what to look for. Following grading levels set by the WTF, establish different levels of judges based on experience.
4. Uniform dress code for judges. I hate seeing judges in street clothes or TKD uniforms. The dress code for a judge is suit and tie.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have seen and been in organizations that had regular clinics for judges, they seemed to work fairly well till the ego's started blooming.

Most of the tournaments I now go to are fairly small and most of the black belts are known, and have been judging for some time. This helps a little because we are able to put the fairest , most impartial judge in the center and surround him/her with people of experience with perhaps one new black belt in a ring. The newer judge is then watched by all to see just how they do and most of us are not afraid to have a talk with the new person after. These talks may just be to say well done, or they may be of the " did you see such and such technique" or why do you only call this technique but not that one.

A bad judge is bad for the sport and should not be allowed to judge more than once before being told they did not do a good job. Now everyone has a bad day and I do believe in 2nd chances but not at the experience of getting someone hurt.

Often a person we do not know will be invited to various schools so we can get to know them better and it is highly possible we will have tournament like conditions that night to see how they judge and maybe get them to see things they might not be used to seeing.

 

[MJS]

Hi Folks

Several months ago I attended a local seminar to support a friend of mine who was bringing students to the tournament. The promoter was made an announcement asking for all black belts interested in judging to please come to the black belt meeting. Seems the only requirement to judge is to be a black belt. Now let me say Im not a big fan of open tournaments.
What I saw was some of the worst judging Ive ever seen. Ive said it before and I will say it again. Just because you are a black belt it does not make you a doctor, laywer nor does it make you qualified to judge.
I know there are groups out there which have specific requirments for a person to be a judge. Personally I would like to see more of this and less of the Wannabeeess and over night wonders judging.
I would like to hear your commments on this as well, All posts are of course welcome.

Thanks
San

That was one of the reasons why I would not walk around wearing my belt, while I waited for my event. I got snagged one time into judging an event, and ended up missing my own!

I have seen some poor judges and this is probably the main reason that they have this BB meeting...to attempt to explain the rules and get everyone on the same page.

Mike

 

[Shu2jack]

I like the rules my organization follows for judges. Only black belts can be judges, and they go through judging clinics. If you are a black belt attending the tournament, you will be judging or doing something to help out in the tournament. We establish competition times for specific divisions and rotate judges in such a way that nobody misses their competition.

While there will always be issues with someone's judging, I think if a tournament host can organize his judges and the competing divisions he can always have someone doing something and not let anyone miss their competition by accident. It all comes down to organization I believe. Setting up judging clinics, communication between schools, well set-up tournaments, and a quality pool of black belts to depend upon.

 

[DuneViking]

I like the rules my organization follows for judges. Only black belts can be judges, and they go through judging clinics. If you are a black belt attending the tournament, you will be judging or doing something to help out in the tournament. We establish competition times for specific divisions and rotate judges in such a way that nobody misses their competition.

While there will always be issues with someone's judging, I think if a tournament host can organize his judges and the competing divisions he can always have someone doing something and not let anyone miss their competition by accident. It all comes down to organization I believe. Setting up judging clinics, communication between schools, well set-up tournaments, and a quality pool of black belts to depend upon.

That is great. If all the local tournaments could do this it would go a long way to helping. Not all can though, especialy some of the smaller ones, so its take what you get and put enough of your known people, your school or not, in each place to help. The judges meeting is a definite plus as well as a window on the organization and skill of the sponsor as well. I have seen excellent meetings and some less than that. In the end, I think it aquiring those skills should be a goal of those who wish to judge, whether at seminars or on the job. I do see most junior BB judging student ranks and have myself declined events and sought out senior BB to help with the higher level competition. I also tend to recuse myself from competitions where our students are. Most local tournaments I have seen just ask one to not be center in those situations. I do see a general movement to seminars and at least discussions among schools to improve this area, where the "egos" allow.

 

[47MartialMan]

But at many tournaments, there is a lack of judges. And also, if you been a martial artist and/or black belt for some time, the local community and peers know who you are without wearing a uniform and belt.


Organization is a key, but sometimes things organized can become chaotic. i too have seen junior or "fresh" black belters judge competitions. are they less qualified, esp if they had been in tournament throught their martial art ranking/experiences?

And to what standard, can we apply for someone to judge? If the tournament is "open", how can their be a judging standard of one form/style to be cross-used for another?

 

[TigerWoman]

I would like to attend a seminar on judging as I had the experience of just being foisted into the job without much in guidelines and after four years now am getting better from on the job training. But I have seen all kinds of stuff at the judge's table. And I see the new black belts, sometimes teens having to judge. They usually go along with judging the same as an older black belt but still they are not getting any education about it and are very frustrated and scared that they are not doing the right thing.

I found forms judging all over the map at open tournaments. So I attempted a solution and devised a form to follow. "Too much work" is what I got in reply from my master. Better just to throw the black belts together and we have alot of new ones for the April tournament this year.

This is a the form score which I devised for what it is worth--please change as you would see fit---if you think about using it.

As an example this is for a Adult Blue belt, Age 45.

FORM SCORE SHEET

Competitor Name____________________________________________

Division__Adult 40+Male_________


1. Address, respect shown- judges (1.0 possible)1.0

2. Complete form (2.5 possible) 2.0
(Errors, re-start, imbalance
facial attitude, look-down
(minus .5 to 1.0 max)

3. Stances
(heel down, leg straight in back 1.0)(1.0-1.5)1.0
(longer, lower stances +5)

4. Kicks (held, position correct) (.5) .5

5. Kicks (high-held)(max. l.0).5
(front, side or round each +.5)

6. Power: (Low 1.5)

or (Med 2.0) 2.0

or (High 2.5)

7. Variable (optional)
(other factors: +.5 ea
age, low belt, overall flow/style)(max 1.0 ) .5

Total: 7.5


Note: This is giving the competitor a base score so he walks away with something but knows what was wrong to work on---also he sees all judges scores so can evaluate better.

This competitor made a small pause/error in form, his kicks were average for his age but he had a high front kick and good stances. This allows for a perfect score of 10 and a minimum score of 5 usually and has allowance for other arts ??, young age-old age, low belt-newbie. Notice there is not room for partiality or it would show compared to other scores. I know this would take more time during a tournament but once you get used to scoring it would go faster. They could be stapled together to show the competitor if he wanted to see. What do you think? TW

 

[terryl965]

the main problem in judging is inconstitances between people, we are human and without proper education from all judges there are no clear way of doing it without these indevours. I know for a fact that at Texas State here in dallas in TKD they changed there minds 6 times in a 24 hr. period to make everyone happy. Poomse went from only Tae Gueks to every stlyle that was at the tournament. Until we make a committee to over see every tourny then there can't be any unity.

 

[bdparsons]

The issues being discussed here are primarily indicative of "open" tournaments. Most tournaments that are sanctioned by particular organizations usually have made some effort to codify requirements to be a judge (or referee).

This primary issue with open tournament judging is that when using the "every black belt present" pool to choose from you automatically take the judging to the lowest common denominators available to the judge.

In my opinion it's actually easier to judge the sparring divisions in this case. Most scoring that you'll see, even at the black belt levels, will be basic moves. What will differ among the competitors and rank levels will be primarily speed, power and accuracy.

Forms are more difficult in that if I am unfamiliar with a given form be it from a different style or even an original form, what can I judge? Would I be able to know, except for glaring errors, whether the individual has performed all angles, targets, strikes, blocks correctly? Will I be able to determine if the front kick I just saw should go to the knee, the groin, or maybe even supposed to be a thrust kick to the solar plexus? This being the case, I'm right back to where I started from in sparring, cutting through the fluff and being able to recognize and score such things as balance, form, power, speed, focus, etc. Remembering of course that my standard for these items is based on where I would expect my students skill level to be, based on a given rank or level of experience.

As an experienced black belt should I be able to recognize these things regardless of style or form? Absolutely. Is it entirely fair to the competitors? Not really. But these are things you choose to accept when you step into the open tournament scene. Is the system perfect? Far from it. Could it stand improvement? Sure. But improvement usually comes in the form of gravitating toward a closed tournament environment.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[MichiganTKD]

That's why it makes more sense to have the rules understood and codified well before the tournament is organized. That's also why I don't believe in open tournaments-whose rules do you follow? All of a sudden I'm qualified to judge forms or free fighting outside my style? If I'm a WTF practioner, and a non-WTF judge were judging my form, I'd have a legitimate beef.
Establish from the beginning what rules you're going to follow ("This tournament will follow WTF rules with WTF forms and sparring for ex.). That way, you at least narrow what everyone is expected to understand.
And don't get black belts to judge who just happen to be there. The ones who just happen to be there are not thinking like judges. Their concentration level is different from non-judges: more relaxed. Establish the judge pool from qualified black belts and instructors ahead of time, and make them follow a dress code. That way, they know they will be judging and plan accordingly. Also, everyone else will know they are judges and treat them accordingly.

 

[47MartialMan]

This competitor made a small pause/error in form, his kicks were average for his age but he had a high front kick and good stances. This allows for a perfect score of 10 and a minimum score of 5 usually and has allowance for other arts ??, young age-old age, low belt-newbie. Notice there is not room for partiality or it would show compared to other scores. I know this would take more time during a tournament but once you get used to scoring it would go faster. They could be stapled together to show the competitor if he wanted to see. What do you think? TW

I like the idea of a form/guidelines. But it cannot apply to every martial art style/system. it is still a standard of Karate specifics. What if the prson performing doesnt have high kicks, low stances, or stance placement, in accordance to the sheet?

Also, I like the annoyminity of not having a competitor look at my scoring. Too many times in the past when judges held up scores that the one holding up the lowest was scorned by school classmates and parents.

And, I rarely seen a 45 year old Blue Belt-but more "power" to them

Open tournaments are open to get in more participants. Therefore a variety of martial artists with their arts are collectively judged by the same people with the same mindset. How can a non-traditional judge, examine a tradtional form? How can a TKD judge, examine a Shotokan or soft style (Kung Fu) form?
How to these grade in accordance without being biased?

 

[MichiganTKD]

How can a TKD judge, examine a Shotokan or soft style (Kung Fu) form?

Answer: He can't. That's why open tournaments are a waste of time. And yes, they are held to get more people, and hence, more money in the door.

 

[47MartialMan]

How can a TKD judge, examine a Shotokan or soft style (Kung Fu) form?

Answer: He can't. That's why open tournaments are a waste of time. And yes, they are held to get more people, and hence, more money in the door.

You hit it right on the nail as I was going to post that next.....

 

[bdparsons]

You hit it right on the nail as I was going to post that next.....

Actually, I wouldn't go so far as to say that open tournaments are a complete waste of time (although depending on how it is run, a particular tournament could be).

It entirely depends on what you (or your students if you're an instructor) want to get out of it. If you are willing to accept certain shortcomings, such as a baser level of judging, then I believe instructors and students can still get quite a bit out of open tournaments such as:

The opportunity to see similarities between your art and others.
The oportunity to see differences between your art and others.
Observing how instructors of different arts/schools relate to their students and other instructors.

Both open and closed tournaments have advantages and disadvantages. It's up to the individual instructor to determine which direction you want to head. But, try not to be dogmatic. There is a distinct danger in focusing only on what you don't like and throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[VSanhodo]

I remember in the late 60's and early 70's ppl used to hold / attend open tournaments. They had a far different meaning then thean they do now. At that time an open tournament meant just that, any style could participate. Now the rules were a little different then too. If you were in TKD you might be paired up with a Judo player, The TKd player had better be ready to be thorwn and better know how to fall, and the judo player had better be ready for fast head kicks.

Bottom line the rules were easy to remember, No groin shots, no striking the base of the neck or spine, No kicking to the knees. Other than that the rules were pretty easy. Kicking, punching, blocking, sweeping, thorwing, take downs, ground fighting etc were all allowed. It didnt matter what system you were in. The funny part is back then there were fewer injuries then today, Back then we didnt have foot gear, chest protectors, head gear etc. You would wear knuckle protectors, a cup and a mouth piece.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm maybe I should start a new thread Safety Gear or not??????????????? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm maybe.

Thanks again

San

 

[dubljay]

To compare martial arts tournaments of today to the 60s and 70s doesn't quite support you theorey of fewer injuries. The number of martial artists today is by far greater than that of the 60s and 70s, so to say that there were fewer injuries back then has no real meaning unless you were speaking of a per capita statistic. Furthermore there are more tournaments held now there there was in the 60s and 70s. I know some people that go to tournaments every month or so, sometimes ever few weeks, I can't see many martial artists having the oppertunity to do that back then.

 

[Rob Broad]

How can a TKD judge, examine a Shotokan or soft style (Kung Fu) form?

Answer: He can't. That's why open tournaments are a waste of time. And yes, they are held to get more people, and hence, more money in the door.

I disagree with this statement. Power is power, control is control, focus is focus, forms are judged on certain criteria, that transcends style. Competition is not test day, subtle differences should be expected with the same style, and major differences and similarities should be seen with competitors from other styles.

Sparring just lets you know where you stack up against other competitors.

The problem is not letting different styles compete at the same event, but under qualified judges, and ba politics.