Tournament Judges

[Nightingale]

I had an idea...

Most organized sports have certified (or hired) referees. Martial arts needs that.

I keep hearing people complaining about judging in tournaments... EPAK folks say that chinese/japanese/korean MAists don't understand their forms, chinese MAists say that the japanese MAists don't understand their forms, etc....

I think a lot of this stems from the fact that most judges at tournaments are volunteers from many different styles and places and backgrounds. This is a problem, because a 15 minute judge's meeting (that almost no one goes to because they're always held so early) isn't enough to get everyone on the same page.

What I'd like to see is an organization that licenses tournament judges. The prospective judge goes to a one day workshop on what is expected when judging each division in an IMAC, MARS or whatever type tournament, and pays a small fee for certification. They are then issued a judge's ID card, which, after they report to the tournament coordinator for a ring assignment, gets them in free to the tournaments. The certification would need to be renewed by mail every other year, by taking a simple written test and mailing/faxing it to whoever it needs to go to to process the renewal.

Judges belonging to this association would be expected to follow certain guidelines, and have a certain amount of understanding of the main styles, what chinese/japanese/korean/
american/okanawan forms are based on and supposed to look like, and a basic knowledge of point sparring rules.

I keep seeing korean style judges judging open sparring and not calling groin shots or backknuckles and stuff like that. This isn't a bash or anything, I'm just saying that they don't know the rules.

This could be a way for tournaments to get certified judges that follow a standard set of rules. The incentive for judges to get certified would be that they get in free to the tournaments, provided they judge at least four divisions (or something like that), and that way the promoters know they're getting judges that have been educated in tournaments, how they work, and what the rules are, and have a guarantee that the folks that are certified will judge at least 4 divisions. Any black belt without a judge's certification could pay a reduced spectator fee or something like that if they promise to judge, otherwise they pay the regular spectator/coach's fee.

If a judge doesn't work the required number of divisions, the promoter could lodge a complaint with the certification organization, and after 3 or more complaints, that person's membership would be revoked.

This is a totally off the wall, not very well thought through idea that I just figured I'd throw out there for discussion. What do y'all think?

 

[ace]

Ref's that can actuly do what they
Are Watchin.

This is a great idea
Wish, Pray & beg for it
to happen> We are on the same Page!
:armed: :armed:
Wicked Sweet!!

 

[tshadowchaser]

I will disagree on a few points, and for a few reasons.
First if you see a judge who is constantly not calling a backfist ,punch, kick, whatever there a couple problems occuring at the same time one the judge is either system predujudice or unaware of the rules. The head judge in that ring should be knowledgeable enough to realise what is happening and inform the side judge of the rules or should not be a head judge. He then should determin if it is a dilibrate attempt on the side judges part to do things by his own rules. A moderator from the tournament may have to observe the ring and if nessacary remove the offending judge. Anyone can or should be able to ask for a ring to be observed for irregularities in judgeing.
If a judge is unable to judge forms based on concentration, focus,formbreaks, power,flow, etc should not be judgeing. If the judge consistantly scores one school or system higher it should again be reported.
I for one will not pay a choach's fee or a spectator fee if I bring my students to a tournament. I will judge and give my time to help make it a better tournament or I will compete but do not expect me to support your tournament with my students then pay also. If you do not want my help or students you simply lose that much more revenue.
A one day session can not possibly make a person understand what he/she has no knowledge of already. By trhe time a person reaches black hopefully they have been exposed already somewhat to the other systems. Otherwise stay in closed tournaments or watch and learn at open tournaments till you know what your seeing.
My thoughts only.
Shadow:asian:

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

I will disagree on a few points, and for a few reasons.
First if you see a judge who is constantly not calling a backfist ,punch, kick, whatever there a couple problems occuring at the same time one the judge is either system predujudice or unaware of the rules. The head judge in that ring should be knowledgeable enough to realise what is happening and inform the side judge of the rules or should not be a head judge.

Agreed. However, the promoter/arbitrator cannot stand and observe every single judge. The head judge SHOULD be knowledgable, but often they aren't, and the competitors don't have a whole lot of options.

He then should determin if it is a dilibrate attempt on the side judges part to do things by his own rules. A moderator from the tournament may have to observe the ring and if nessacary remove the offending judge. Anyone can or should be able to ask for a ring to be observed for irregularities in judgeing.

but often, you don't realize what's going on until your division is the one being judged, and by then its too late.

If a judge is unable to judge forms based on concentration, focus,formbreaks, power,flow, etc should not be judgeing. If the judge consistantly scores one school or system higher it should again be reported.

again, agreed, but reporting it doesn't really do a whole lot of good, and its difficult to prove that the judge is scoring one school or system lower, because often there are only between five and ten competitors in a division, so there isn't a large enough sample to prove a pattern.

I for one will not pay a choach's fee or a spectator fee if I bring my students to a tournament. I will judge and give my time to help make it a better tournament or I will compete but do not expect me to support your tournament with my students then pay also. If you do not want my help or students you simply lose that much more revenue.

If you're judging and giving your time in exchange for free admission, AWESOME. However, having helped sign in judges and coordinate things, I see so many black belts sign in as judges, then not judge a single ring. They walk over to their ring assignment, then walk away when you leave to go get the competitors, leaving you hunting around for another judge. Or, when you ask them to judge, they say "my students are competing now." every single time you ask them, when they're not even watching a ring.

A one day session can not possibly make a person understand what he/she has no knowledge of already.

agreed. which is why I proposed a written test at the end of the day to help weed out the particularly clueless ones.

By trhe time a person reaches black hopefully they have been exposed already somewhat to the other systems. Otherwise stay in closed tournaments or watch and learn at open tournaments till you know what your seeing.

sigh...if only they would....

 

[tshadowchaser]

Good counter points.
It can't be that we are the only two with thoughts on the subject.. I thought some of the others might even host tournaments surely they must have some thoughts and points to put forth here.
Shadow:asian:

 

[Blindside]

Actually I have been to tournaments where there was some level of certification on the judges. It was a traditional Japanese tournament, and although it was advertised as an "open" tournament, I was the ONLY non-traditional Japanese competitor there. I felt conspicuous having the only black gi in a sea of white. Because of the lack of "open" turnout, they shifted back to a "closed" format. Which was pretty amusing to me, since I couldn't understand the points being called (I don't speak Japanese) or the warnings. Regardless, the judges were pretty consistent (at least regarding traditional karate, I had one guy who couldn't tell heads from tails regarding Kenpo), and talking to them, their association had some sort of certification process.

I have also heard that some TKD associations have something similar, but again this is only for closed tournaments.

I am lucky enough to compete in a local tournament circuit that I have been pretty happy with (Utah, Montana, Wyoming). The number of participating schools is relatively small, so promoters know who the good judges are and assign them to center the rings. All in all I have been pretty happy with it, although I don't think that would fly in an area with a bigger population base. I have been much happier here than when I competed in the Seattle area.

Given the widespread nature of our league, I don't think any type of certification process would work, we would simply have to drive way too far.

Lamont

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

I had an idea...

What I'd like to see is an organization that licenses tournament judges. The prospective judge goes to a one day workshop
...
This is a totally off the wall, not very well thought through idea that I just figured I'd throw out there for discussion. What do y'all think?

Good idea. I'm not clear on all the details but I was asked if I'd like to attend a training session for timekeepers and scorekeepers for the circuit I competed on this year.

I know they have a similar training requirement for judges but I don't know what it is.

They cover a lot of what you have discussed and in sparring and forms competition I have had a judge gather us all together and say stuff like "I don't study your system... but I know pretty much what a Reverse Punch should look like... that a Kata is a Fight... and so I will expect to see certain things..."

Not perfect, but nothing is. You have to accept the fact that if Tournament Judges were any good, they'd be Baseball Umpires.
:asian:

 

[Shinzu]

i feel this is a good idea, but if you do not get enough "certified judges", are you then unable to host a tournament?

i have judged before and i do see your point. you are indeed correct, but you are always going to have those that will disagree with anyone... even a certified judge.

 

[jkn75]

Tournaments are problematic because of inconsistancy. It's unfortunate but it occurs even in closed tournaments.
In open tournaments, judges use what they know and try to fit every other martial art into that mold (sometimes its like putting the square peg in the triangle opening). It's not perfect but I think having professional judges would be difficult. People want to be compensated for their work. Pro judges will want to be compensated and demand more of a fee causing the entrance fee to increase. I don't want to pay $30 for one or two events now, $60 would put it out of my range. I like open tournaments because they expose you to other arts and allow interaction with your martial arts community.
Closed tournaments problems' :favoritism. You should judge the participant on your knowledge of the art, not your relationship with them.
:asian:

 

[7starmantis]

There are some really good points here, I think some sort of certification would benefit all MAist, the trouble is organizing it. The trouble is tournaments are often judges like little league basball games, "Any parents here wanna judge?". That doesn't do any good for anyone. In any event that is judged there are people that disagree, football, basketball, baseball, its goign to happen regardless, BUT, if there was a board setup that complaints could be registered with, just like other events, I think it would organize it. Make it a certification that an instructor could get and put on the wall with the rest of them. If it was presented in that way, I think it could be a great help. You know, 8th degree black and certified by the National Martial Arts Judges Association or something like that, make any sense ?


7sm

 

[ace]

Instint re-play would be nice to.
Yeah i know it's not gonna hapen
But i stil Pray!!

:fart: :fart: :fart:

 

[Nightingale]

the only way to make it work would be to get IMAC or TPA backing. We'd have to get the organization to say "come to the tournament. If you're certified, we hand you a list with 4 ring assignments in the category of your choice (self defense, weapons, sparring, open forms, trad forms, showmanship or whatever) when you walk in the door, and you're expected to be there at your ring when the division is called. if you do that, you get in free. If not, we complain to the judge's board, and after 3 complaints, your membership is revoked. otherwise, non-certified judges are charged $20 and if they work all four of their assigned divisions, that money is refunded after completion of the fourth division. Have the scorekeeper, timekeeper, and coordinator who brought the people to your ring initial your paper, and bring it back to the cash box when you've got all 4 divisions signed off to get your refund. For judges that are truly planning on working, pre-paying $20 shouldn't be an issue. If the black belt doesn't want to pay the $20 refundable deposit, they're charged a flat $10 spectator fee, plus the usual $15 for a coaches' pass if they're coaching. Judges coach free.

What'da ya think?

 

[Master of Blades]

I dont like the idea of Instant Reply because then there is no point of judges. They would only be there to start and finish the fight. The actual decision would be all based on the reply more then the judges. But I like the idea of referee's being licensed.

 

[Damian Mavis]

ITF TKD has only closed tournaments but even then I wish there was certified paid judges because I hate judging haha. Also there tends to be favoritism and bad calls made alot at smaller tournaments. I'd like to take the weight of judging off the black belts and instructors, especially if I'm going to compete I don't want to judge all day before fighting... it's exhausting.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Despairbear]

Here is one for every one. Eleminate all judges and use the honor system. Works for one of the martal sports I play with. We have people on hand to watch for safety issues but all calls are made by the people who are competing. Would it work in a more "normal" MA compitition? Problably not.


Despair Bear

 

[Nightingale]

could work in sparring, if all competitors were ethical (which they're not)

wouldn't work at all in kata.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Nightingale, are you makeing an assumtion that IMAC and TPA are in all parts of the country and that everyone goes to their tournaments?
One of my main objections to certifying judges is that to many states want to certify black belts and instructors now. If we start certifying judges who is to do this and WHY are they the ones to do so.
Why not start haveing clinics for those that are brown belts(red for the Koreans) and make it a requirement for anyone who wants to become a Black Belt that they attend or are unable to attent tournaments if they do not. THis is good except who are the clinic givers to tell me what is a requirements for my promoteing someone. what if the person has no intrest in tournaments now but 5 years from now they want to go. What if they come from Europ or Asia and want to judge are you going to tell them they are not qualified?
Not starting a war here just trowing out ideas and trhoughts.
Shadow:asian:

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

Nightingale, are you makeing an assumtion that IMAC and TPA are in all parts of the country and that everyone goes to their tournaments?

no. I am not assuming that. All I'm saying is that someone would need the backing of a large organization to get a policy like that started. starting it at just one or two local tournaments will probably just tick people off.

Why not start haveing clinics for those that are brown belts(red for the Koreans) and make it a requirement for anyone who wants to become a Black Belt that they attend or are unable to attent tournaments if they do not. THis is good except who are the clinic givers to tell me what is a requirements for my promoteing someone. what if the person has no intrest in tournaments now but 5 years from now they want to go. What if they come from Europ or Asia and want to judge are you going to tell them they are not qualified?

the WHO would be a new private agency, who has reviewed the rules and regs from all the major tournament circuits in the US and gives a crash course to people who want to judge. Perhaps the course could be made available online for those in other countries...

 

[7starmantis]

It wouldn't be that you couldn't hold a tournament not governed by the organization, but people would respect those that were. You know, I would want to compete in the ones that were sanctioned by the organization.


7sm

 

[Damian Mavis]

"Eleminate all judges and use the honor system."

That wouldnt work for freestyle fighting like ITF TKD. We just go go go for 2 minutes no stopping unless you fall down. Kind of hard to keep all the points in your head while fighting even if you wanted to be fair. I can see that working for point fighting where you stop every time you hit your partner or he hits you.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD