"Torture" or testing ordeals?

[tshadowchaser]

Sorry I saw this after posting in the other thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1019438&postcount=29

I have been part of some LONG tests more than once and all I will say is I know what my body and mind could and would endure at that point in my life.
I will even go so far as to say i have bitched because of seeing the same grade test in the same system last only a half dozen hours and the student not being made to fight at the end of that time. He was graded upon forms. techniques, and the endurance to go the time they choose. Do I think he would have fought if told to YES but they did not make him and I felt he missed out on knowing how far his body and mind could be pushed.

 

[jks9199]

Maybe my opinion on some aspects of these tests are because I've done it elsewhere. I spent 6 months and 6 days in the Ratline. I completed the police academy. I've fought people who were trying to seriously injure me, at the very least. And I've boxed and kickboxed, even done a bit of wrestling, as well as light to medium contact round robin sparring.

What I care about is skill, not games. I can see the rationale of wearing you out before you demonstrate skill -- but I've seen videos of some of those "you must fight 100 people" black belt tests, and by the end, you're not seeing skill. You're barely seeing determination to keep going. Mostly, you're seeing a human punching bag in a lot of cases. Again -- that's just from the videos I've seen; they may or may not be fair representations.

I don't have a problem with reasonable and documentable physical conditioning tests. (I don't like things that seem to be "we want a number tougher than the Army's!") I can see the point of pushing someone deeper into their limits to see what their skill is really like at that point.

I just wonder about some of these tests... I expect a black belt to be able to demonstrate any lower belt skill -- but I'm not sure I see the point in requiring them to demonstrate all of them as part of the test. The majority of it should be covered in the black belt forms/skill tests, instead of running through every lower belt test. But -- that's just my opinion.

 

[terryl965]

Your students who pass will certainly know they earned it! If they do not pass, do they get to retest in 6 months or so?

I don't know how long our black belt tests last and if they are allowed fluids/bathroom breaks. I just know that the higher the rank, the longer the tests.

retest are allowed anytime after 90 days if they feel they are ready. I never ask anybody to retestt hey come to me when they feel it. And of course no charge for a retest, they have already paid once that is enough.

 

[terryl965]

I'm sitting here thinking what a weird thing it will be to worry more about dehydration and passing out than my TSD material.

I hope some more Masters/Senseis open up about their testing like Terry did. Maybe they can give us some perspective on why they require their students to undergo certain rigorous procedures during testing. Maybe there are some here who do not allow their students to have fluids also.

Lynne in all my years in MA, I have never heard a Master not allow students to drink or use the restroom, that is a complete puzzle to me.

 

[KELLYG]

I've lived through several (hard) test myself. One of my tests I lost 10 lbs in 6 1/2 hours. I can remember, while testing, being told it's your body make it do what you want it to do instead of what your mind is telling you it can't do. You learn allot about your inner strength. I have surprised myself in doing things that I would never have thought possible.

My mind set is that when you are invited to test that you are already a black belt. You have gained all the knowledge, experience and training necessary. During the long hard Black belt test you are proving to yourself and your fellow students that you deserve to wear the belt.

 

[kidswarrior]

Is such testing for every one NO but there are those who have gone through it and those that will in the future. If a person dose not want to submit themselves to such test be they an four hour, a six hour, or a all day test it is for the individual to decide if the training is worth the test.

tshadowchaser raises a very good point. If we go in with our eyes open, then we've made a choice, a compact if you will. Making a choice and sticking with it is not a bad way to go.

What I have a problem with now and in actual experience in the past, is when an organization lies to me about it. Either just don't tell me anything, or else stick to your word. But don't tell me one thing to get me to pay the fee and show up, then make the test 50% longer, etc. Even the wartime Navy recruiter I dealt with was straight up with me.

But it sounds like your KM org is being very straightforward, girlbug2. And that's another positive to take into the test with you.

 

[MJS]

Rather than let this issue derail the existing thread, I figured I'd start a new thread since the general topic's come up a few times.

It seems that more and more schools/associations/systems are moving towards increasingly extreme testing, especially for black belts, but sometimes for under belts, too. Things like 8 to 10 hours of testing, or huge calisthenics exercises, overnight tests, and more. Honestly, I'm not going to be surprised to hear someone say that "their" test involves camping for 3 days with only 2 matches, a knife and the clothes on your back, followed by sparring every black belt in the system who can make it, then competing in a triathlon before performing every single form and technique you ever learned, and then presenting and defending a full graduate level thesis paper, while doing a 50 mile ruck march. Or just squeezing the test process in while replicating Hell Week of BUDS.

Of course, the other extreme is getting promoted because someone likes you, with no testing process or apparent qualification. I'm not going there -- at least not yet!

What I almost have to wonder is if the "ordeal" criteria is sometimes just an excuse to be able to say "our test is so tough..." I'll tell you -- I've seen some people pass these sorts of tests -- but not have solid skills, appropriate to their ranking. H'mmm... They've got drive and guts -- but not skills? Something doesn't seem to add up. And, to be fair, I've seen people who survived these tests -- and had the solid skills, too. So the ordeal isn't a guarantee one way or the other about skills. Nor is a lack of ordeal...

Don't know... What do you folks think?

IMO, the 1st degree black belt test should be a physical one. I could see 4-5 hrs. but anything more than that...a bit too much IMO. My 1st degree consisted of alot of cardio, ie: running, situps, pushups, etc., a ton of basics, both in the air and on bags, kata, SD both in the air and on people, as well as sparring.

The test should be hard, and it should be designed to see at what point the testee starts to break down. Should the person be carried out on a stretcher? No, but again, they should get a very good workout.

 

[bluemtn]

At my new/ current dojang, I hear that the BB test is 3 days, but I don't think it's necessarily overnight, and on the 3rd day, you're able to invite people to watch. The school is somewhat new- been around for 1- 1.5 years, so no one has even achieved higher than green belt yet. Well, other than the 3 black belts that are instructing...

 

[Kacey]

My first degree test took all day... but there were dozens of people testing at the same time, and 4 test boards. We came up in groups of about 6, and had time to rest while the other 2 or 3 groups with our board were on the floor. The testing ended with a tournament that included all of the people who tested. I would say that, over the 12 hour day, I was on the floor about 4 hours. My other dan testings have been about the same - 3-4 hours on the floor - although there were fewer people, and therefore a lot less rest; my 4th dan test was me and one of my students testing for I dan, so I was on the floor more than he was (about 3-1/2 hours, all together) because I had more things to demonstrate than he did.

I've never been in or at a test that required the people testing to not drink; that sounds dangerously unsafe, and honestly - I have a problem with heat prostration that's been with me all my life - there's no way in hell I could make it through that test, because I dehydrate easily (low blood pressure, my doctor says) which is what leads to the heat prostration; I'd pass out no matter how much water I drank beforehand. Telling people they can't drink while exercising heavily for 6 hours is criminally negligent, IMHO, and honestly - if I would told that that was my requirement, I wouldn't test. No rank is worth risking my life that way.

 

[kidswarrior]

Safety is everyones responsibility in a class, it has to be, otherwise people get hurt. Staying properly hydrated is a safety issue, just like wearing proper equipment or applying joint locks in a controlled way. If someone is endangering themself or others someone, propbably the instructor, needs to correct the situation.

I have a laundry list of injuries that could have been avoided if my instructors, my partners, and I had heeded this advice. :asian:

Not to be indelicate, but I've always been cursed with a quick urinary system. Seems like I pee a lot more than most people.

Give it 20 more years, *Nephew*. Just ask morph4me, or one of the other old timers. :lol: No, just kidding, I'm actually speaking from personal experience.

 

[Flying Crane]

I
Give it 20 more years, *Nephew*. Just ask morph4me, or one of the other old timers. :lol: No, just kidding, I'm actually speaking from personal experience.

Problem is, I've ALWAYS been like this, from the time I was a young'un.:erg:

 

[DavidCC]

Rather than let this issue derail the existing thread, I figured I'd start a new thread since the general topic's come up a few times.

It seems that more and more schools/associations/systems are moving towards increasingly extreme testing, especially for black belts, but sometimes for under belts, too. Things like 8 to 10 hours of testing, or huge calisthenics exercises, overnight tests, and more. Honestly, I'm not going to be surprised to hear someone say that "their" test involves camping for 3 days with only 2 matches, a knife and the clothes on your back, followed by sparring every black belt in the system who can make it, then competing in a triathlon before performing every single form and technique you ever learned, and then presenting and defending a full graduate level thesis paper, while doing a 50 mile ruck march. Or just squeezing the test process in while replicating Hell Week of BUDS.

Of course, the other extreme is getting promoted because someone likes you, with no testing process or apparent qualification. I'm not going there -- at least not yet!

What I almost have to wonder is if the "ordeal" criteria is sometimes just an excuse to be able to say "our test is so tough..." I'll tell you -- I've seen some people pass these sorts of tests -- but not have solid skills, appropriate to their ranking. H'mmm... They've got drive and guts -- but not skills? Something doesn't seem to add up. And, to be fair, I've seen people who survived these tests -- and had the solid skills, too. So the ordeal isn't a guarantee one way or the other about skills. Nor is a lack of ordeal...

Don't know... What do you folks think?

We water-boarded our last shodan candidate.

ok not really

 

[Deaf Smith]

The extreem testing sounds close to hazing.

At West Point, and other military schools, over time the upper classmates added 'test' or other things to occupy the time of the lower classmates. Later it became more extreem and extreem till some got hurt (and a few died.)

Beware this. Go look at a grand master, at any particular art, who is oriental, and see if at their schools they do such testing. At least in the U.S. I doubt they go to such extreem.

I remember John Chu's test for black belts, at Lake O'Pines near Longview, would take Sat. and Sun. BUT, it was broken up into parts in the morning and afternoon. Forms, SD, one step sparring, breaking, sparring, and a Q&A time. But there were breaks in the routine.

I'm not saying a 10 min test or quickie, but test that drag on for 6 hours without water.... it's stupid. Simply stupid and dangerious.

Deaf

 

[Senjojutsu]

The extreem testing sounds close to hazing.

At West Point, and other military schools, over time the upper classmates added 'test' or other things to occupy the time of the lower classmates. Later it became more extreem and extreem till some got hurt (and a few died.)

Beware this. Go look at a grand master, at any particular art, who is oriental, and see if at their schools they do such testing. At least in the U.S. I doubt they go to such extreem.

I remember John Chu's test for black belts, at Lake O'Pines near Longview, would take Sat. and Sun. BUT, it was broken up into parts in the morning and afternoon. Forms, SD, one step sparring, breaking, sparring, and a Q&A time. But there were breaks in the routine.

I'm not saying a 10 min test or quickie, but test that drag on for 6 hours without water.... it's stupid. Simply stupid and dangerious.

Deaf

Several years back in Massachusetts there was a Police Academy Class for local city/town police force candidates that was run by the State Police, who went overboard with a “Parris Island” type training philosophy right on Day One.

No hydration was allowed all day – a recruit died of kidney failure – then came the multimillion-dollar lawsuit – we Massachusetts taxpayers paid up. There are justifiable reasons our military pushes the fitness envelope on recruits (and the Officers/NCO’s are under review and can get court-martialed for abuse/negligence).

Martial arts schools students are normally (all) civilians. Never fail to differentiate the differences between fighting & fitness – it’s about developing self-defense mindset/skills/techniques first. Fitness & stamina are (good) by-products of your martial arts training. To prove my opinion – who would you put this month’s mortgage payment to clear out a gritty barroom – a dozen Hell’s Angels motorcycle gang types - or a dozen tri-athletes and/or Tour de France types? …by any measuring scale which of those two groups is more “fit”?

 

[Twin Fist]

said it before and I will say it again, you want to test my fitness? make me spar more. I aint running, doing sit ups or any other kind of warm ups as part of a test.

The only things that have any business on a belt test are kihon, kata, and kumite, maybe some breaking and some QnA.

The above is only my opinion, please dont take offense.

 

[Brian King]

Deaf Smith wrote

“At West Point, and other military schools, over time the upper classmates added 'test' or other things to occupy the time of the lower classmates. Later it became more extreem and extreem till some got hurt (and a few died.)”

Deaf can you provide some sources please.

Thank you
Brian King

 

[jks9199]

Deaf Smith wrote


Deaf can you provide some sources please.

Thank you
Brian King

For VMI, you can check out Drawing Out The Man by Henry Wise. Several of the abuses and hazings that did unfortunately occur over time are described and documented, such as having Rats do pull-ups over top of an unsheathed sabre.

Blood pinning and other forms of hazing have also been well documented in military specialty units, as well.

It's kind of interesting; things that would be called hazing in one organization or place aren't considered hazing in another. The line is clear when it's inflicting injury on a person -- but when all that's hurt is their dignity, it's much harder.

 

[shihansmurf]

The extreem testing sounds close to hazing.

Beware this. Go look at a grand master, at any particular art, who is oriental, and see if at their schools they do such testing. At least in the U.S. I doubt they go to such extreem.

I'm not saying a 10 min test or quickie, but test that drag on for 6 hours without water.... it's stupid. Simply stupid and dangerious.

Deaf

I reread this just before I posted so please note the disclaimer. All of the below is my view on this matter. Insert IMHO,IMNSHO, or WTF as you, dear reader, deem appropriate. And as always I extend pre-emptive apologies to anyone I may offend.

Hazing is precisely what is is, and frankly hazing is nothing more than organized bullying carried out by cowards and weaklings. There is a world of difference between contact for training purposes and abuse of a student.I don't even have words to express the colossal level of negligence and stupidity in not allowing a student to have rest periods and hydration during these marathon session.It is simply asking to injure someone, and anyone that would presume to test in that manner is grossly incompetent and ignorant in the field of physical fitness education and has no business in a teaching position where they are responsible for the safety of students.

I find it interesting how, in my experience, that many of those that advocate this sort of extreme testing do not fight at heavy or full contact in their schools, or compete thusly. I would put forth the theory that since they do not have an outlet to fulfill the need to measure their toughness in an alive and responsive manner that these shugyo proponents create artificial constructs in which to "test there mettle".Since they don't square off in contact fighting they convince themselves that by performing well on some virtual obstacle course that they have attained skill in fighting. The idea being that "if I can withstand this then I am a true black belt/polk dot sash/Grand Poobah of the water buffaloes/or whatever neat title they are going for. Since they don't have the opportunity to earn the respect of their peers in the ring they do so by suffering more. Seems rather stupid in my view.

The shodan test that I administer takes about an hour to an hour and a half. The students know beforehand the material that they will be tested on. There is s physical fitness test that they take that consists of the following: 100 each push ups, sit ups/crunches, jumping jacks, squat thrusts, and flutter kicks. They then perform kihon, then Kata, One Steps, and finally spar. They are allowed a 2 min rest break between segments.

I have never had concerns about the skill level of any shodan or higher that I have ever graded. I would have no qualms whatsoever in matching their skill performance against any other black belt of similar experience/rank. I believe a grading should be about measuring the candidates skill i martial arts, not "how bad do they want it". If they want it badly enough then they will put in the mat time and develop their skill set to the appropriate level.

Just my view
Mark

P.S. In reference to what the instructors who inflict this testing went through to earn their rank in relation to what their students are expected to do there is often a large disconnect. Tis makes that sort of instructor a hypocrite. On my shodan exams I perform the Physical fitness test right along with the candidate. I do every rep. I also have all of my old tests, from brown through yondan, on video. If any of my students ask to see them I am happy to oblige provided I get no remarks over the long hair in the earlier ones.

 

[Brian King]

JKS9199 wrote

“For VMI, you can check out Drawing Out The Man by Henry Wise. Several of the abuses and hazings that did unfortunately occur over time are described and documented, such as having Rats do pull-ups over top of an unsheathed sabre.

Blood pinning and other forms of hazing have also been well documented in military specialty units, as well.”

Thanks for the reference JKS9199, it sounds like an interesting read on a very old historic institution. I have first hand knowledge of hazing with-in the military, blood pinning and the like, some painful some funny. My question to Deaf is more on the “few died” comment. I am not aware of any hazing deaths at West Point or other military schools, but I am no expert LOL

Thanks again for the reference
Brian King

 

[kidswarrior]

JKS9199 wrote


Thanks for the reference JKS9199, it sounds like an interesting read on a very old historic institution. I have first hand knowledge of hazing with-in the military, blood pinning and the like, some painful some funny. My question to Deaf is more on the “few died” comment. I am not aware of any hazing deaths at West Point or other military schools, but I am no expert LOL

Thanks again for the reference
Brian King

Well, since we're in the military arena, or close enough perhaps, maybe the reputed deaths of marines from the constant running in boot camp back in my day (very early 70s) would qualify? I realize the laws and certainly society as a whole have changed since then, but still, it's a piece of our history, and I'm sure at least a *few died*.

Now admittedly, my resources are all anecdotal, as in, I was there (across the chain link fence in Naval Training Center--yeah, I volunteered, but I wasn't crazy ). Not a very scholarly source, I know, but if need be, we could probably scare up some written documentation. And I'm far from an expert, either. Just a guy who kept his eyes and ears open.