To report or not to report...

[Cruentus]

Let's say that you're attacked, and you come out on top. Maybe you slice up a mugger, while you take off running before the others realize that there buddy just got sliced up. Or, someone try's to fight you for no good reason, and you put him down hard, injuring him.

Do you notify the authorities or not? This is a question that I have milled around with for awhile, and I thought I'd get your informed opinions on the subject.

So for my opinion on the subject, it can be illustrated by the following story...

When I was in the third grade, I had already been in a martial arts class for a year and a half or so. There was a kid on the playground who wanted to fight me for whatever reason. I knew that I could take this kid (in my third grade mind I knew this, anyways) but I was always told that it is best not to fight. So, I decided that no matter what happened, I would not fight this kid. If he attacked me, I wouldn't fight back. This way, he would be the one to get in trouble, and not me. It's funny how in the third grade, injury seemed to be of no concern...it was only 'getting in trouble' that mattered. So this kid told me at recess that he was going to kick my butt. I said, "fine..go ahead...but I won't fight you. So if you kick my butt, then you'll just get in trouble not me!" So, the kid proceeded to punch me with left and right haymakers in the face, until I landed in the snow. My nose was bloody, and I got up laughing, and I went and told the teacher aid what happened. The kid went with me and said that I tryed to kick him. She asked me if this was true, and I said no. Since it was my word against his, she ended up making us both lose out recess privilages for a week, and we both had notes sent home to our parents.

From that day on, I vowed #1 that I will never let someone kick my @$$ again. I will always fight back because it simply isn't worth it NOT to. #2 It doesn't matter if I am right or wrong, I will be punished either way when it comes to any sort of fight or assault. I think these lessons unfortunatily apply today as an adult. Even if I am beaten to a pulp, there are many scenarios where I can be sued or persecuted for it. If I prevent someone from hurting me, I can be sued or prosecuted for excessive force, or what have you. In any case, even if I am not able to be convicted or sued, I can be endlessly dragged throught the courts, spending excessive time and $$ for no reward.

To me, it isn't worth it. If I am attacked and if I come out on top, I want no paper trail if I can help it. I am getting the F out of there. If I am later caught, my excuse will be that I was afraid for my life, and I just wanted to escape. Once out of danger, I felt so tramatized by the event that I didn't want to go through re-living it by placing a report; I am safe and that is all that mattered to me. That is my excuse, even if my attackers are all laying dead and I am unmarked. Hell, I can say this online because it would all be true even if this did happened, and I have record of having thought of this beforehand; I would only defend myself if I was afraid for my life and well being (or that of someone I know), and I would feel somewhat tramatized after an attack even if I came out on top, and I wouldn't want to relive it by having to go through the police. I use the word "excuse", but none of it would be a lie.

Now, if there were witnesses who could identify me then I would make a report because it will come back to me anyways. If someone needs medical attention that was not the attacker, I would make a report, and attend to the victims rather then leave them. If the attackers need medical attention, I would probably make an anonomous call. It all depends on the circumstances involved.

But, for the most part, I would be a ghost. I'd get out of there w/o reporting if possible. I am not set in stone with this, though, which is why I am starting a thread on the subject.

I am interested in hearing some other thoughts...

Thanks,

PAUL

 

[Touch Of Death]

You are better off reporting the incident and filing charges, reguardless of who started it; because, if you don't and he does, you are screwed.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
You are better off reporting the incident and filing charges, reguardless of who started it; because, if you don't and he does, you are screwed.

Everyone seems to say that "you are screwed"...and I can agree. But aren't you likely to be screwed either way?

So the question is how much more are you screwed in not reporting it and getting caught? Does it really matter who tells their side first? If so, how much does it matter?

:idunno:

 

[kenpo12]

I think both arguments are valid and it really boils down to the individual situation. It's kind of like answering the question, "If someone attacks you what technique would you use?". You really have to be in the situation to determine the best answer.

 

[Zepp]

I think I have to agree with Touch'O'Death on this one. Judges aren't quite the same as elementary school teachers. They tend to look more favorably on those who act responsibly. And if you file criminal charges against someone for assaulting you, there's a chance you will prevent their lawsuit.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Zepp
I think I have to agree with Touch'O'Death on this one. Judges aren't quite the same as elementary school teachers.

Really...? lol

They tend to look more favorably on those who act responsibly. And if you file criminal charges against someone for assaulting you, there's a chance you will prevent their lawsuit.

How does it prevent their lawsuit? They can always sue you after you've filed charges, and they can always say that you assaulted them after you have filed. If you are able to disappear, who can they file the charges against? I could see a judge looking more favorably on a person being "responsable," but how does that change the ruling if the evidence is going both ways, and the judge and jury can't tell the difference between the attacker and the defender?

I just have so many unanswered questions. If you explain that you were afraid when you were attacked, and you were afraid to report it, and you just want the whole thing behind you and that is why you didn't make the report, then what's the problem? How much worse could the consequences really be? Is there case history and a precidence set that I can look up to find the answers?

heh...we might need some attorneys and cops to get on board and help out with this one.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Because when his attourney aks you in court why you didn't file charges,"I wanted to put it all behind me." isn't good enough to stop the jury from deciding you are at fault.

 

[Rich Parsons]

If you do not file the charges tis is the question everyone will ask:

"What is (s)he hiding?"


If you file first, you do not make a statement I used xyz Move and on purpose I attacked him and hurt this part his his/her body.

You tell the truth, you just do not tell everything.

"I am not sure, but I think I was assaulted."

"Should I go to the Hospital, I think they hit me in the head?"

"I do not remember what happened, I just know they were on me and I just ran away."


By Filing first, you have nothing to hide. You are stating this is an outrage. Everything the other party does after this point, is revenge, including the cival suit.

Just remember the police have long memories and remember if you get jumped every weekend though.

Oh and I never ever used any of the above lines, nor did I have a friend spar with me, and I not block intentionally to have bigger welts and bruises when I did have to go see the police after my shift. That would be unethical.

:asian:

 

[NYCRonin]

This is a pretty tough question to answer exactly -- sorta like asking "How do I defend myself from an attack"? -- lots of specifics left out.
I will start by saying I am an 18yr. veteran of a NYC law enforcement agency -- NYC Corrections, specifically.
I have also defended myself from attack numerous times - on the job and in the street.
In general, it would be advisable to report an incident where a use of force took place to the nearest P.O. station as soon as possible. If you have keep your defense within legal guidelines and dont go overboard (A guy pushes you and you damn near beat him unconscious in response or he throws a puch, misses, and you chase him for 2 blocks then whack him) - you will be justified and the police record is VERY useful in court. If the attacker requires hospitalization (and you dont report it) he will be able to swear out a complaint against you and, upon YOUR arrest; the legal process turns in his favor -- you must prove YOUR innocence.
Recidavist inmates -- which make up a large part of the criminal world around here -- know that their past record may be brought up in court but, then again; it might not be admissable. These guys dream of a payday - and there are plenty of lawyers willing to take 40% of whatever settlement is levied against you if they win. They are also much more comfortable with the legal system than you, are often VERY accomplished liars and can perform on the stand like Al Pachino in a movie -- are you that comfortable?
Walk away after you defend yourself -- but what if your are within 3 blocks of your home? The perp knows where he encountered you -- he will heal and recover -- and many have this twisted sense of revenge about them, and may come looking for you, possibly with back-up...accomplices or weapons. Reporting a proper defense will probably land him in jail and afford you some degree of legal protection. Expect to spend some time at the station any way it goes. And, depending on what transpired, you could also be brought to central booking for arraingnment before a judge (Did you go to the station with that neat pocket folder that you spent $200 on and just couldnt bear to part with? Bad descision, if your area police consider it a concealed weapon).

There is also something to be said for just going your own way...if you are far from an area you usually frequent, no witnesses (which you cant be sure of -- think home video) and the guy ran off after the confrontation. While he is running off, do the same in the opposite direction and stay the hell away for awhile.

Either way, there is much to consider BEFORE a confrontation comes up, and after.
A quick story:
About 4 years ago, late afternoon. The scene was a busy street corner in Bklyn. - I come out of a corner newstand to see 4 19-21 yr old guys harrassing people getting off a bus. Lewd and crude to the females -- nothing but mouth, something every Bklyn. female encounters. I just stood there, attempting to light a cigar I had just bought. One of them screamed and made a mad rush towards a very old man (He could walk with the most difficult of shuffeling steps) and the punk threw up his hands but stopped just short of making contact with the man (inmates do this all the time to draw a reaction - its called 'stalling off' or 'punking out').
The old man was so startled that he fell backwards to one knee - the 4 jerks laughed. It pissed me off -- sorry, but for all the 'compassion and tolerance' that the Budda teaches -- I just lost it. I went over to the newsrack that the 'punker' was sitting and loudly asked "What the f*** is wrong with you?" The guy smirked as the other 3 came closer. His reply was "Whats your f*** problem, you wanna get hurt? (I was very aware that now I was the focal point of the 4 -- 1 trying to get behind me).).
As God is my witness, I dont even remember 'telling' my r.hand to do so -- but I cracked this guy right across the face with an open hand slap (an RMA thingie called 'opleucha'). Knocked him right off the newsstand to the floor, as I turned to a better vantage for the other 3, I saw them backing off then walking away. I told #1 that the next time I saw him on the Ave. - I would give him more of what he just got and began to walk away...headed for home about 3 blocks away.
THE ENTIRE AREA WAS QUIET - A BUS HAD STOPPED, CARS HAD STOPPED AND NOW 30 OR SO PEOPLE WERE STARING AT ME! For the most part, I was in the wrong and there were 30 people who probably only saw the hit.
Just before I made it home -- 2 PD cars, lights and sirens going came flying past me...stopped and backed up. Hands out to my sides, I waited for the order to 'freeze'. I identified myself, saw #1 in the back seat of a cruiser. The first cop was well into the process of arresting me but 'standard procedure' required that a superior officer be present. In a few min. - a Sargent showed up. He told me #1's story and asked for mine, which I gave him. THANK GOD HE WAS AN 'OLDTIMER'! They tend to feel abit sorry for corrctions officers, I believe -- looking at us with a 'Why didnt you become a cop, are you stupid?" kinda thing.
He explained that 'procedure' normally would call for both of us to be taken in for questioning but, he knew #1 from previous stupidity on his part. Asked me if I had my personal protection weapon on me (my off duty pistol) -- I didnt.
He took out #1 -- who had heard I was a C.O. (and was screaming about a lawsuit) -- and said "I have to take you both in for a statement, if you (#1) are pressing charges. That means you will both be searched and held for questioning for awhile. I know you (meaning me) dont mind the search but do you really want me going through your (#1) pockets? Or are you gonna forget about charges"? #1 was pissed (and had a lovely five fingered palm print tattooed across his face) but he told the Sargent to forget about it. He left, I got a lecture about "It aint like the old days" from the Sarge -- and I made it home.

Post script -- I found out later that #1 lived two buildings away from me. He avoided me like the plague but could just as easily have attempted revenge - as mentioned earlier.
P.S. #2 - about a year later, I saw him at my jail as an inmate awaiting transfer to an upstate prison, convicted of assault and armed robbery. You should have seen the look on his face when our eyes met on Rikers Island, I made me laugh out loud.

Sorry for the long post - but I felt it was illustrative of a case in point for the original question.

 

[Touch Of Death]

If thats what it takes to convince people, its all good.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
Everyone seems to say that "you are screwed"...and I can agree. But aren't you likely to be screwed either way?

So the question is how much more are you screwed in not reporting it and getting caught? Does it really matter who tells their side first? If so, how much does it matter?

It matters, a few years ago, I was jumped by a couple guys. They jumped in my car while I was stopped and being in such little space, I couldn't really do anything but simply defend from as many punches as I could. For about 8 or 10 minutes they beat on me until they were tired. That's when my training came to my rescue, as soon as I felt them slack off just a bit, I was able to get a foot in #1's chin, and a shoulder in #2's ribcage. I took them both out of the car and onto the ground some 5 feet away from the car. When I got out of the car, stood up and prepared to defend myself, they couldn't believe I was not hurt very bad, and they took off running. They jumped in their truck and tore off. A bystander tore off after them and got their license plate #.
When I got inside a nearby business and called the police, they had already called and reported being mugged by me. The police were on their way to me already to apprehend me. If you think the police would not have found me, your dead wrong.
They got their, saw that I had the bloody face and tore up clothes and these guys had virtually no marks on them. they put two and two together, smart cookies, and realized what happened. It took a complete year for the trial to make it to court and they ended up getting like 6 months probation or some stupid slap on the wrist, but next time, they will go to jail.
If they had picked someone smaller than myself, or with less training, they could have killed someone.

anyway, too long of a post, I know, but my point is, it does matter if you report it. Had I just taken off, the police would have been looking for me, and all the evidence of my innocence would have been lost when they finally found me three weeks later.

7sm

 

[OULobo]

Its a risk you have to decide if you want to take. If I don't report it what are the chances this guy will. If I do report it what are the chances I'll catch a case.

If it's a standard "mugging" type confrontation, you may be able to assume the guy has a previous record and so you have a good chance he won't want anything to do with the police. Might as well leave it as is. If it's an after hours, outside the bar confrontation, then you can bet there are going to be legal issues no matter what, so better be the first to file or at least report the event.

 

[OULobo]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
It matters, a few years ago, I was jumped by a couple guys. They jumped in my car while I was stopped and being in such little space, I couldn't really do anything but simply defend from as many punches as I could. For about 8 or 10 minutes they beat on me until they were tired. That's when my training came to my rescue, as soon as I felt them slack off just a bit, I was able to get a foot in #1's chin, and a shoulder in #2's ribcage. I took them both out of the car and onto the ground some 5 feet away from the car. When I got out of the car, stood up and prepared to defend myself, they couldn't believe I was not hurt very bad, and they took off running. They jumped in their truck and tore off. A bystander tore off after them and got their license plate #.
When I got inside a nearby business and called the police, they had already called and reported being mugged by me. The police were on their way to me already to apprehend me. If you think the police would not have found me, your dead wrong.
They got their, saw that I had the bloody face and tore up clothes and these guys had virtually no marks on them. they put two and two together, smart cookies, and realized what happened. It took a complete year for the trial to make it to court and they ended up getting like 6 months probation or some stupid slap on the wrist, but next time, they will go to jail.
If they had picked someone smaller than myself, or with less training, they could have killed someone.

anyway, too long of a post, I know, but my point is, it does matter if you report it. Had I just taken off, the police would have been looking for me, and all the evidence of my innocence would have been lost when they finally found me three weeks later.

7sm

Either way, it sounds like you had an objective witness who could vouch for your story. Even if the police arrested you later, tell them you didn't want to report it, you weren't too badly hurt and if they hear about the incident from the bystander and saw your condition, I'm sure your story would hold up. As far as I know its not illegal to not report your own mugging.

 

[lvwhitebir]

It's always better to report it.

1) You aren't the guilty party, so why should you worry about getting in trouble?
2) If he reports that you jumped him, it'll be that much more difficult to prove him wrong. You look guilty to the police, judge and jury.
3) If it's a mugging or assault, you're not the only victim down the road. Wouldn't it be better to truly punish the guy to keep other victims out of his path?

For true self-defense, you shouldn't be punished, unlike school-kid problems. If it comes down to his word against yours and you both were injured, you'll probably both be charged with fighting.

So what is "self-defense?" It's applying only the necessary amount of force to repel an immediate and imminent attack where escape is not possible.

Keywords are "necessary amount of force to repel" (not punish), "immediate and imminent" (can't be a threat of a fight this afternoon), and "escape is not possible" (you have to try to disengage).

So self-defense is not beating him to a pulp because he called you a name, or even because he hit you first. It's applying enough force to keep him from hitting you again (or the first time) in order to escape. If your aim is to stay engaged in order to punish him or show him you can fight better, you're involved in a fight, not a self-defense situation, which is punishable by law.

From that day on, I vowed #1 that I will never let someone kick my @$$ again. I will always fight back because it simply isn't worth it NOT to.

Sorry you feel that way. Unfortunately that is what perpetuates the violence instead of ending it. He probably has the attitude that he can beat people up because it doesn't matter, no one can stop him. You're only encouraging him.

#2 It doesn't matter if I am right or wrong, I will be punished either way when it comes to any sort of fight or assault. I think these lessons unfortunatily apply today as an adult. Even if I am beaten to a pulp, there are many scenarios where I can be sued or persecuted for it. If I prevent someone from hurting me, I can be sued or prosecuted for excessive force, or what have you. In any case, even if I am not able to be convicted or sued, I can be endlessly dragged throught the courts, spending excessive time and $$ for no reward.

I disagree. He can file all the suits he wants, but if you're truly just defending yourself then very few will believe him. Even better, you can counter sue for the false claims and recoup court costs and more...

WhiteBirch

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by OULobo
Either way, it sounds like you had an objective witness who could vouch for your story. Even if the police arrested you later, tell them you didn't want to report it, you weren't too badly hurt and if they hear about the incident from the bystander and saw your condition, I'm sure your story would hold up. As far as I know its not illegal to not report your own mugging.

True, but if they press charges it is going to court, regardless. That means many days off work in court, dealing with it, hassling with getting the witness off work those same days, then court recesses and you have to take off again in two months.
That was my reason for filing, and to protect anyone else down the road they may try to jump.

7sm

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by OULobo
Either way, it sounds like you had an objective witness who could vouch for your story. Even if the police arrested you later, tell them you didn't want to report it, you weren't too badly hurt and if they hear about the incident from the bystander and saw your condition, I'm sure your story would hold up. As far as I know its not illegal to not report your own mugging.

Live and learn, and don't say we didn't try to tell you.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir

I disagree. He can file all the suits he wants, but if you're truly just defending yourself then very few will believe him. Even better, you can counter sue for the false claims and recoup court costs and more...

WhiteBirch

Wow! I suppose when we are judged before God you have a case, but this is he said she said(his girlfreind, mom, or wife) and you just ran. I envy your faith in the system.
Sean

 

[OULobo]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir
It's always better to report it.

1) You aren't the guilty party, so why should you worry about getting in trouble?
2) If he reports that you jumped him, it'll be that much more difficult to prove him wrong. You look guilty to the police, judge and jury.
3) If it's a mugging or assault, you're not the only victim down the road. Wouldn't it be better to truly punish the guy to keep other victims out of his path?

1. Litigation. It doesn't always matter how things happend, just how the judge or jury sees it.

2. The chance you take and the uncertainty of it is that you really don't know how they will see it.

3. You got me there. Indeed it is better to get the guy off the streets.

While I agree on principle and theory about the idea of self defense in the legal system here in the US, I don't think judges or juries are always following the letter of the law. There are to many ways to affect the outcome of a trial over and above the actual letter of the law. Law seems to be less and less about rules and more about perception and protraital(sp).

 

[Cruentus]

NYCRonin: Thank you for posting! That was very informative!

7Starmantis: Wow...that is a compelling story, and for your circumstance it was good that you reported it.

lvwhitebirch:

Sorry you feel that way. Unfortunately that is what perpetuates the violence instead of ending it. He probably has the attitude that he can beat people up because it doesn't matter, no one can stop him. You're only encouraging him.

I'll be frank to say that your comment hear is a bit too idealogical for me. Now, things were different in the third grade. If I had an elementary school kid I would tell him that there is no reason to fight anyone, even if they throw the first punch, and you need to get away and tell and adult. I would also tell them that they should never be anyones punching bag; so if they can't run away and tell someone, then they need to defend themselves as best as they can.

Now, I am not sure why you take martial arts. Maybe you have the ideology of Gandi, or a buddhist monk, but I don't. No one should ever just "let" someone kick their @$$. This is stupid, and not good self defense in my opinion. I am not sure how by not letting someone hurt me I am perpetuating violence either...this is nonsense to me.

I don't think we are seeing eye to eye on this one.

I disagree. He can file all the suits he wants, but if you're truly just defending yourself then very few will believe him. Even better, you can counter sue for the false claims and recoup court costs and more...

Unfortunatily, I am a cynic when it comes to our system. Our system does not always protect the innocent, in my opinion. If the judge/jury see's that we are both at fault somehow, even if it is not true, we'll both get smacked. If my attorney doesn't make as compelling of an arguement as his attorney, I'll get smacked even if I am innocent. If the "witnessess" are biased in my attackers favor, I get smacked even if I am innocent. Now, lets say I am found innocent and him guilty. He is probably some street punk with no $$ and no insurance. Sure...he'll go to jail, but I'll never see a dime. Mind you....I have just forked over thousands of $$ to build my case....yet I'll get no reward.

We always here about some obscure 1 and a million case where someone wins a million dollar law suit for something stupid from some corporation with the insurance to pay. But what the media doesn't tell you is that in most personal lawsuits...nobody wins, even the person who wins technically will probably spend mucho dinero, while not seeing any dinero in return.

This is the reality of our system, I feel. This is why I have reservations on reporting if I can get away with not reporting. Sometimes it might be best to let sleeping dogs lie.

OULobo:

1. Litigation. It doesn't always matter how things happend, just how the judge or jury sees it.

2. The chance you take and the uncertainty of it is that you really don't know how they will see it.

You make good points...and this is exactly why I have reservations in reporting if I can avoid it.

However...there are good points in both cases. I think that the bottom line is that it will depend on the circumstance. By hearing you all out, I am seeing many circumstances where reporting is nessicary...more so then when I started this thread. However, I am not fully convinced yet that reporting is the best thing to do every single time.

When I have more time I'll post 2 actual cases for you all to look over.

PAUL
:asian:

 

[dearnis.com]

Do understand that just because you report the incident first does not mean you will be the one who gets to file charges. I have heard, more than once, "How can you arrest me?? I called you???!!
Know where you stand, and know when you need to use that right to reamain silent!


Chad